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Hit Japanese app Crabhouse forced to change name on iOS

225 points by edandersen 6y ago

zxcvbn4038 6y ago
Crabapple?
- juanani 6y ago
  Had no clue those letters could be pronounced the same. Would anyone like to start a computing company called Uppre?
BelenusMordred 6y ago
Maybe they should put a maximum Damerau–Levenshtein distance in their T&C's to make it clearer for future developers?
- alpaca128 6y ago
  That would make it harder for Apple to apply their double standards at will. Tech companies like it when the most specific they have to get is "you violated the guidelines".
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Yup, they even remove your app if you have a trademark on the name but not the backdoor connections with Apple. Harder to do that with an actual documented process: https://www.worldtrademarkreview.com/brand-management/clubhouse-spat-1-billion-social-network-labelled-bully-over-app-takedowns https://www.worldtrademarkreview.com/brand-management/clubho...
    - mchusma 6y ago
      I agree the process with google and apple is fickle and horrible. However,I did read the article you linked, since the social media app was using the mark "clubhouse" first, they would have legal priority. To win trademark infringement cases generally you need to prove there is confusion and priority. If you happen to later get a trademark through an office, in most jurisdictions you don't get to "steal" those rights. They are quite straightforward to cancel, although it takes some time. That said, Apple and Google's policies are fickle and confusing and indeed your best bet is to have connections to their companies. IMO google is worse because Apple has a group you talk to, and google has you submit forms to something they don't typically respond to.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Well, a minimum distance of 1 seems reasonable. As the article notes, these are the same words in Katakana, and the punny time was clearly intended to ride on Clubhouse's coattails.
- apricot 6y ago
  Making it clearer for developers is the opposite of what they want. The more obscure the rule, and the more convoluted the appeals process (if one even exists), the easier it is for the dictator to control their domain.
echelon 6y ago
Time to build Crabhouse on Android and force Clubhouse off when they want to join.
- eternauta3k 6y ago
  Already there https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.GAIBAKO.Crabhouse&hl=es_AR&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.GAIBAKO.Cr...
  - Pxtl 6y ago
    "Not available in your country" Why do people hate Canada?
nippoo 6y ago
"To English-speakers’ eyes the difference between “Crabhouse” and “Clubhouse” are quite clear, but that’s not necessarily the case in other languages. In Japanese, the pronunciation of the letters “l” and “r” are largely interchangeable, as are the English vowels “a” and “u” in many cases. “Crab” and “club” is one such case and to make matters worse, when rendered in Japanese katakana script they become identical: クラブハウス." This is clearly a purposefully confusing/punny name (it's unclear whether they made any money from downloads or if it was just an elaborate joke)... - it doesn't seem particularly draconian for Apple to wield their hammer in this particular instance...
- jesperlang 6y ago
  Just to clearify: ク = Ku ラ = Ra ブ = bu Crab would be Cu-ra-bu (Kurabu) Club would be Cu-(l/r)a-bu (Kurabu)
  - joeblau 6y ago
    Thanks for clearing up how the words are pronounced.
- zerocrates 6y ago
  The App Store screenshot shows it as being free. I'm pretty sure "elaborate joke" is the correct place to come down on this. Also see the hastily-corrected name on the wall of "crabhome."
- dalai 6y ago
  Isn’t this a bit unfair? The app is free (with IAP) and the screenshots are a dead giveaway what the app is about. If crabhouse was the most popular, would they force Clubhouse to change its name? Somehow I doubt it.
- hkmurakami 6y ago
  > it's unclear whether they made any money from downloads or if it was just an elaborate joke The top review on Japan app store (translation by yours truly): "recently work had been so busy that I was starting to get depressed. That's when uuddenly I wanted to eat taraba-kani (red king crab), but in my wallet was 50yen and not a Noguchi (the person on the 10,000JPY bill). I sighed and fiddled around with my phone...and that's when I discovered this app. At firsti thought this app would just be about gazing at crabs, but before I knew it my fingers had tapped the install button and I had opened the app. What a wonder! My fingers wouldn't stop using the crabs and before I knew it it was morning. As I was getting ready to go to work the crab at the top right of the screen spoke out to me, "work isn't worth it, you should quit." Tears flowed from my eyes. "That's right... I had tried hard enough." That day I resigned from my job. Today I'm living happily with 32 crabs. My house smells a little fishy but I'm having a pretty fun time now. Aah, I want to eat King crab..." https://apps.apple.com/jp/app/crabhome/id1551908729?l=en https://apps.apple.com/jp/app/crabhome/id1551908729?l=en Looks like the app is now called crab home.
ttraub 6y ago
Is 150,000 downloads enough to attain "hit" status in the iOS world? On Android, anything less than half a million or so is somewhat niche. 150K is a respectable number, but just saying. Also, was the takedown initiated by the Clubhouse owner? Seems like the ill will they have created is not worth whatever imagined advantage.
tonetheman 6y ago
Hmmmmm. That feels really broken. It is impossible to even get into Clubhouse... how in the hell can it be so popular that a private club app gets to win in that case. Someone from Apple is on the board of the people invested in Clubhouse? Someone got paid. That feels a lot like pay-play schemes from the recording industry and radio.
- Griffinsauce 6y ago
  > It is impossible to even get into Clubhouse... how in the hell can it be so popular that a private club app gets to win in that case. Making their treatment of Hey even more bullshit.
- ewindal 6y ago
  > It is impossible to even get into Clubhouse Is it? Don't you just need an acquaintance on the inside? I got invited by someone I worked with once upon a time shortly after installing the app just to see what all the fuzz was about.
- fortran77 6y ago
  > Someone from Apple is on the board of the people invested in Clubhouse? Almost certainly. Or someone from Clubhouse called Apple board member "Al Gore" and told him to fix it. https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2020/08/04/who-is-on-apples-board-and-why/ https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2020/08/04/who-is-on-appl... He's been a "fixer" for many Apple issues, including getting Steve Jobs deflected from a back-dated stock option scam. (Jobs paid himself $1/year to beat payroll and income tax, and was compensated in backdated stock options, so he'd only have to pay the long-term capital gains tax rate) Source: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/steve-jobs-haunted-by-backdating-scandal-again https://www.marketwatch.com/story/steve-jobs-haunted-by-back...
  - mcphage 6y ago
    I didn’t see any mention in your source about Al Gore
peterkelly 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer
- yesenadam 6y ago
  Fascinating, thanks! So Apple computers used to have synthesizer/sound chips, and still might if it wasn't for the Beatles! This is about the Ensoniq synth chip, with 32 oscillators, that was in the Apple IIGS: http://www.buchty.net/ensoniq/5503.html http://www.buchty.net/ensoniq/5503.html
finger 6y ago
There is already an app called Clubhouse which is a project management application/tool. What about that?
- dkdbejwi383 6y ago
  Isn't that the 'other' app in this story? Or have I missed something?
  - mav3rick 6y ago
    Clubhouse is a voice based rooms social app that's all the rage these days.
AbrahamParangi 6y ago
It’s honestly amazing that there’s basically no way to run software on your iPhone unless Apple approves of every aspect of it, including the name.
- vmception 6y ago
  At least it doesn't take 10 days anymore I think it was 5 years ago already when Apple got it down to 1 day
- foolfoolz 6y ago
  that’s not true. this applies to the app store
- bstar77 6y ago
  You can say this about any closed platform. There's nothing wrong with closed platforms having these policies if they are advertised and designed as such. Apple has been consistent from day one. there are other options, buy an Android or Linux mobile device if you want something a bit more open.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    It happens on open platforms, too. Trademark lawyer sends a cease and desist. Unless you’re flush with cash, you rename the app.
    - sellyme 6y ago
      > Unless you’re flush with cash, you rename the app. Or if you're willing to take the gamble. My default response to C&Ds (and other similar notices) that have no actual legal justifiability behind them is a nice succinct "fuck off", and I've yet to receive any follow-up from about a dozen such interactions. Now at least some of those "legal notices" were clearly from people who had never interacted with a lawyer in their lives (my personal favourite was someone who insisted that having their username on a ban list for cheating in a video game was a violation of the GDPR), but there's a lot of entities who have a track record of spamming anyone they can find with vague threats in the hope that some people will cave in to their bullying, fully aware that they can do absolutely nothing to those who don't. I'm no expert on Japanese trademark law, but I suspect it's very unlikely that Clubhouse has any case here.
fortran77 6y ago
What's odd is actual "similar name" scams are so common on iOS Store that the only good way to find the correct app quickly is go to the website of the company whose app it is and look for the link there. I had to do this yesterday to get the right app for my Insurance company. Look for deceptively-named apps around everything, especially Microsoft products. Apple doesn't seem to care about these....
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
This story is more outrageous in English, but the real reason becomes clear when you see the Japanese translation: > “Crab” and “club” is one such case and to make matters worse, when rendered in Japanese katakana script they become identical: クラブハウス. Apple already allows apps with similar names, as long as they're not deliberately misleading users. The Clubhouse social media app is actually named "Clubhouse: Drop-in audio cha‪t‬" ( https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse-drop-in-audio-chat/id1503133294 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse-drop-in-audio-chat/i... ) A project management company already has the app named "Clubhouse" ( https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse/id1193784808 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse/id1193784808 ) Cloning Clubhouse with similar sounding names is a trend in other countries, where companies are trying to capitalize on Clubhouse's popularity. My favorite is "Club Horse" which is one of tens or hundreds of blatant Clubhouse clones that have popped up in China: https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1369682085833711618 https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1369682085833711618
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  If Crabhouse pivoted slightly to be a social media app for supporting trainee crustacean lawyers, maybe they could change the name of the app to "Crab - How sue?"
  - bitwize 6y ago
    Badum-tish! Or rather, Sosumi sound
- est 6y ago
  > one of tens or hundreds of blatant Clubhouse clones that have popped up in China Clubhouse is powered by Agora, the Chinese audio tech provider. Agora is founded by the same poeple from YY, a popular chat app and originally a Teamspeak clone.
  - uranusjr 6y ago
    Aside from the point that the backing technology doesn’t define where a service is “from”, it’s still a clone popped up in China no matter what’s being cloned?
ellyagg 6y ago
Just change it to Crabclub.
f-word 6y ago
Good for him. I'd just have made it a PWA so Apple can't stick their grubby paws on my stuff any more. Apple needs to be made to stop; clearly not just for this random crab app lol but their absolutely heinous business practices need to be put to an end.
m1117 6y ago
Wait, crabhouse is older than clubhouse and is forced to change its name? That's unfair.
avs733 6y ago
The actual reason for this aside, I would be much more interested in using CrabHouse than ClubHouse, entirely based on the description of the two and my experience with internet communities.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
stakkur 6y ago
Should’ve renamed it Sosumi.

225 points by edandersen 6y ago

zxcvbn4038 6y ago

Crabapple?

juanani 6y ago
Had no clue those letters could be pronounced the same. Would anyone like to start a computing company called Uppre?

BelenusMordred 6y ago

Maybe they should put a maximum Damerau–Levenshtein distance in their T&C's to make it clearer for future developers?

alpaca128 6y ago
That would make it harder for Apple to apply their double standards at will. Tech companies like it when the most specific they have to get is "you violated the guidelines".
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Yup, they even remove your app if you have a trademark on the name but not the backdoor connections with Apple. Harder to do that with an actual documented process: https://www.worldtrademarkreview.com/brand-management/clubhouse-spat-1-billion-social-network-labelled-bully-over-app-takedowns https://www.worldtrademarkreview.com/brand-management/clubho...
  - mchusma 6y ago
    I agree the process with google and apple is fickle and horrible. However,I did read the article you linked, since the social media app was using the mark "clubhouse" first, they would have legal priority. To win trademark infringement cases generally you need to prove there is confusion and priority. If you happen to later get a trademark through an office, in most jurisdictions you don't get to "steal" those rights. They are quite straightforward to cancel, although it takes some time. That said, Apple and Google's policies are fickle and confusing and indeed your best bet is to have connections to their companies. IMO google is worse because Apple has a group you talk to, and google has you submit forms to something they don't typically respond to.
hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
Well, a minimum distance of 1 seems reasonable. As the article notes, these are the same words in Katakana, and the punny time was clearly intended to ride on Clubhouse's coattails.
apricot 6y ago
Making it clearer for developers is the opposite of what they want. The more obscure the rule, and the more convoluted the appeals process (if one even exists), the easier it is for the dictator to control their domain.

echelon 6y ago

Time to build Crabhouse on Android and force Clubhouse off when they want to join.

eternauta3k 6y ago
Already there https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.GAIBAKO.Crabhouse&hl=es_AR&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.GAIBAKO.Cr...
- Pxtl 6y ago
  "Not available in your country" Why do people hate Canada?

nippoo 6y ago

"To English-speakers’ eyes the difference between “Crabhouse” and “Clubhouse” are quite clear, but that’s not necessarily the case in other languages. In Japanese, the pronunciation of the letters “l” and “r” are largely interchangeable, as are the English vowels “a” and “u” in many cases. “Crab” and “club” is one such case and to make matters worse, when rendered in Japanese katakana script they become identical: クラブハウス." This is clearly a purposefully confusing/punny name (it's unclear whether they made any money from downloads or if it was just an elaborate joke)... - it doesn't seem particularly draconian for Apple to wield their hammer in this particular instance...

jesperlang 6y ago
Just to clearify: ク = Ku ラ = Ra ブ = bu Crab would be Cu-ra-bu (Kurabu) Club would be Cu-(l/r)a-bu (Kurabu)
- joeblau 6y ago
  Thanks for clearing up how the words are pronounced.
zerocrates 6y ago
The App Store screenshot shows it as being free. I'm pretty sure "elaborate joke" is the correct place to come down on this. Also see the hastily-corrected name on the wall of "crabhome."
dalai 6y ago
Isn’t this a bit unfair? The app is free (with IAP) and the screenshots are a dead giveaway what the app is about. If crabhouse was the most popular, would they force Clubhouse to change its name? Somehow I doubt it.
hkmurakami 6y ago
> it's unclear whether they made any money from downloads or if it was just an elaborate joke The top review on Japan app store (translation by yours truly): "recently work had been so busy that I was starting to get depressed. That's when uuddenly I wanted to eat taraba-kani (red king crab), but in my wallet was 50yen and not a Noguchi (the person on the 10,000JPY bill). I sighed and fiddled around with my phone...and that's when I discovered this app. At firsti thought this app would just be about gazing at crabs, but before I knew it my fingers had tapped the install button and I had opened the app. What a wonder! My fingers wouldn't stop using the crabs and before I knew it it was morning. As I was getting ready to go to work the crab at the top right of the screen spoke out to me, "work isn't worth it, you should quit." Tears flowed from my eyes. "That's right... I had tried hard enough." That day I resigned from my job. Today I'm living happily with 32 crabs. My house smells a little fishy but I'm having a pretty fun time now. Aah, I want to eat King crab..." https://apps.apple.com/jp/app/crabhome/id1551908729?l=en https://apps.apple.com/jp/app/crabhome/id1551908729?l=en Looks like the app is now called crab home.

ttraub 6y ago

Is 150,000 downloads enough to attain "hit" status in the iOS world? On Android, anything less than half a million or so is somewhat niche. 150K is a respectable number, but just saying. Also, was the takedown initiated by the Clubhouse owner? Seems like the ill will they have created is not worth whatever imagined advantage.

tonetheman 6y ago

Hmmmmm. That feels really broken. It is impossible to even get into Clubhouse... how in the hell can it be so popular that a private club app gets to win in that case. Someone from Apple is on the board of the people invested in Clubhouse? Someone got paid. That feels a lot like pay-play schemes from the recording industry and radio.

Griffinsauce 6y ago
> It is impossible to even get into Clubhouse... how in the hell can it be so popular that a private club app gets to win in that case. Making their treatment of Hey even more bullshit.
ewindal 6y ago
> It is impossible to even get into Clubhouse Is it? Don't you just need an acquaintance on the inside? I got invited by someone I worked with once upon a time shortly after installing the app just to see what all the fuzz was about.
fortran77 6y ago
> Someone from Apple is on the board of the people invested in Clubhouse? Almost certainly. Or someone from Clubhouse called Apple board member "Al Gore" and told him to fix it. https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2020/08/04/who-is-on-apples-board-and-why/ https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2020/08/04/who-is-on-appl... He's been a "fixer" for many Apple issues, including getting Steve Jobs deflected from a back-dated stock option scam. (Jobs paid himself $1/year to beat payroll and income tax, and was compensated in backdated stock options, so he'd only have to pay the long-term capital gains tax rate) Source: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/steve-jobs-haunted-by-backdating-scandal-again https://www.marketwatch.com/story/steve-jobs-haunted-by-back...
- mcphage 6y ago
  I didn’t see any mention in your source about Al Gore

peterkelly 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

yesenadam 6y ago
Fascinating, thanks! So Apple computers used to have synthesizer/sound chips, and still might if it wasn't for the Beatles! This is about the Ensoniq synth chip, with 32 oscillators, that was in the Apple IIGS: http://www.buchty.net/ensoniq/5503.html http://www.buchty.net/ensoniq/5503.html

finger 6y ago

There is already an app called Clubhouse which is a project management application/tool. What about that?

dkdbejwi383 6y ago
Isn't that the 'other' app in this story? Or have I missed something?
- mav3rick 6y ago
  Clubhouse is a voice based rooms social app that's all the rage these days.

AbrahamParangi 6y ago

It’s honestly amazing that there’s basically no way to run software on your iPhone unless Apple approves of every aspect of it, including the name.

vmception 6y ago
At least it doesn't take 10 days anymore I think it was 5 years ago already when Apple got it down to 1 day
foolfoolz 6y ago
that’s not true. this applies to the app store
bstar77 6y ago
You can say this about any closed platform. There's nothing wrong with closed platforms having these policies if they are advertised and designed as such. Apple has been consistent from day one. there are other options, buy an Android or Linux mobile device if you want something a bit more open.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  It happens on open platforms, too. Trademark lawyer sends a cease and desist. Unless you’re flush with cash, you rename the app.
  - sellyme 6y ago
    > Unless you’re flush with cash, you rename the app. Or if you're willing to take the gamble. My default response to C&Ds (and other similar notices) that have no actual legal justifiability behind them is a nice succinct "fuck off", and I've yet to receive any follow-up from about a dozen such interactions. Now at least some of those "legal notices" were clearly from people who had never interacted with a lawyer in their lives (my personal favourite was someone who insisted that having their username on a ban list for cheating in a video game was a violation of the GDPR), but there's a lot of entities who have a track record of spamming anyone they can find with vague threats in the hope that some people will cave in to their bullying, fully aware that they can do absolutely nothing to those who don't. I'm no expert on Japanese trademark law, but I suspect it's very unlikely that Clubhouse has any case here.

fortran77 6y ago

What's odd is actual "similar name" scams are so common on iOS Store that the only good way to find the correct app quickly is go to the website of the company whose app it is and look for the link there. I had to do this yesterday to get the right app for my Insurance company. Look for deceptively-named apps around everything, especially Microsoft products. Apple doesn't seem to care about these....

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

This story is more outrageous in English, but the real reason becomes clear when you see the Japanese translation: > “Crab” and “club” is one such case and to make matters worse, when rendered in Japanese katakana script they become identical: クラブハウス. Apple already allows apps with similar names, as long as they're not deliberately misleading users. The Clubhouse social media app is actually named "Clubhouse: Drop-in audio cha‪t‬" ( https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse-drop-in-audio-chat/id1503133294 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse-drop-in-audio-chat/i... ) A project management company already has the app named "Clubhouse" ( https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse/id1193784808 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/clubhouse/id1193784808 ) Cloning Clubhouse with similar sounding names is a trend in other countries, where companies are trying to capitalize on Clubhouse's popularity. My favorite is "Club Horse" which is one of tens or hundreds of blatant Clubhouse clones that have popped up in China: https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1369682085833711618 https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1369682085833711618

dane-pgp 6y ago
If Crabhouse pivoted slightly to be a social media app for supporting trainee crustacean lawyers, maybe they could change the name of the app to "Crab - How sue?"
- bitwize 6y ago
  Badum-tish! Or rather, Sosumi sound
est 6y ago
> one of tens or hundreds of blatant Clubhouse clones that have popped up in China Clubhouse is powered by Agora, the Chinese audio tech provider. Agora is founded by the same poeple from YY, a popular chat app and originally a Teamspeak clone.
- uranusjr 6y ago
  Aside from the point that the backing technology doesn’t define where a service is “from”, it’s still a clone popped up in China no matter what’s being cloned?

ellyagg 6y ago

Just change it to Crabclub.

f-word 6y ago

Good for him. I'd just have made it a PWA so Apple can't stick their grubby paws on my stuff any more. Apple needs to be made to stop; clearly not just for this random crab app lol but their absolutely heinous business practices need to be put to an end.

m1117 6y ago

Wait, crabhouse is older than clubhouse and is forced to change its name? That's unfair.

avs733 6y ago

The actual reason for this aside, I would be much more interested in using CrabHouse than ClubHouse, entirely based on the description of the two and my experience with internet communities.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

stakkur 6y ago

Should’ve renamed it Sosumi.