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Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• sp332 6y ago
  There's a cult classic series of blog posts called "The Gervais Principle" https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
  • diggum 6y ago
    Venkatesh Rao also put out a book collecting his newsletter, "Be Slightly Evil" with a lot of explorations of this topic like, "What's the right length of time to hold a door open for someone?" Another book of his is Tempo, which is more about understanding and manipulating the tempo of different interactions in business. But definitely start with the Gervais Principle. It's wonderful.
    • ZephyrBlu 6y ago
      > "What's the right length of time to hold a door open for someone?" Such a simple yet thought provoking question.
• doingitwell 6y ago
  Admit nothing, Deny everything, Make counter-accusations.
• thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
  Old, but quite relevant: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm "A wise man ought always to follow the paths beaten by great men, and to imitate those who have been supreme, so that if his ability does not equal theirs, at least it will savour of it. Let him act like the clever archers who, designing to hit the mark which yet appears too far distant, and knowing the limits to which the strength of their bow attains, take aim much higher than the mark, not to reach by their strength or arrow to so great a height, but to be able with the aid of so high an aim to hit the mark they wish to reach."
  • njacobs5074 6y ago
    Well done! As soon as I saw the subject line, my immediate thought was "The Prince".
• emmab 6y ago
  Moral Mazes: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/45mNHCMaZgsvfDXbw/quotes-from-moral-mazes https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/45mNHCMaZgsvfDXbw/quotes-fro...
  • emmab 6y ago
    The only winning move is not to play. Fight for liberation.
• vncecartersknee 6y ago
  What is the point of doing all that? Like what value do you get from knowing the 'Dark Patterns' ?
  • arunc 6y ago
    1. Awareness 2. To consciously not do that ourselves Dark politics affects our characters and peace of mind in the long run.
  • Maven911 6y ago
    At the very least: the knowledge and awareness that it's being done to you by others. It might not matter at the beginning, but when someone has but 1-2-3 decades in a place and see people who practice the above get ahead..
    • harlanji 6y ago
      It might save a person from becoming homeless by knowing the depravity that they may face and steering clear.
  • sandeep22 6y ago
    promotion
• arunc 6y ago
  For what it's worth, I would recommend 48 laws of power by Robert Greene. I would go to the extent and say that all his books are fantastic reads.
• roninhacker 6y ago
  Erik Dietrich had a section on this in "Developer Hegemony." He immediately followed it with, "You won't have a soul at the end of this," and then another section on alternatives.
• PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  Deliberately playing office politics with manipulative behaviors like this is a losing game. These behaviors will be quickly identified and managed out in any competently managed team. If they work, it means you’re in an office that rewards bad behavior. Instead of trying to play the game, work on finding a better job. You’ll be happier and healthier. I’ve had to remove several employees over the years because they wouldn’t stop trying to play politics like this. It poisons the team and makes everyone unhappy, including the person playing the political games.
  • redisman 6y ago
    Step 1) join a broken/toxic company. Theyre a lot more common than competent ones
    • DoreenMichele 6y ago
      Going along with the BS at such a company just makes sure you aren't ever going to be qualified for a non-toxic company. There are ways to play defensively in the face of such crap. I'm not suggesting you should just let yourself be victimized while imagining that's some kind of high road. But your options don't boil down to "Be their victim or beat them at their sick game." If you believe that and choose that path, you are part of the problem, not just at the company but for the world generally. We can't make a better world if we run around justifying our shitty behavior with "But they started it!"
    • ineedasername 6y ago
      Toxic I can't deal with. But I've made my career working in broken areas that simply didn't know how to do things better and giving them the tools to do so. It can be a weird feeling though. My proper domain of expertise is a sort of data analysis/programming mix to provide operational support for individual units to help them do their work better, but then more advanced analysis to inform the strategic directions of the entire business (well, not business: I work in Higher Ed). It's the individual units that tend to be broken though, stuck in methods of working that are anywhere from 10 to 30 years out of date. Which results in some weird experiences, because some of the most technically simple things I do for them are the ones that get the most "OMG This is Amazing!" response. Which always makes me feel like I produced a kindergarten scribbling and someone's telling me I'm DaVinci. I'm always happy to have helped, but it's hardly a "pat myself on the back" situation. One of the most extreme examples was when I took 15 minutes of so to write a SQL query and use it to automate a crosstab report sent to a group on a daily basis. They were completely floored by it. Because, not knowing how to even do a pivot table in excel, they had literally just been sorting the raw data and counting rows by hand. So, if you're in the "right" kind of broken-- but not toxic-- environment, you can still accomplish quite a bit. Even though only about 15% of my work has a high level of technical complexity, over the years it's saved my workplace tons of money, generated tons of money, and most importantly-- because this is a University-- greatly improved the experience & success of some of our students.
• suyash 6y ago
  Read this book "Secrets to Winning at Office Politics: How to Achieve Your Goals and Increase Your Influence at Work" by Marie G. McIntyre. It shares how to do the right things the right way to grow your career.
• mavelikara 6y ago
  Prioritize visible value for the business. Both parts - visibility and value - are important. Doing valuable things in secret won't help you. Doing visible things whose value others don't understand won't help either. Point 4 is a joke. It is better developed here: https://github.com/Droogans/unmaintainable-code https://github.com/Droogans/unmaintainable-code . Your time is better spent on the other 3 areas.
  • bartread 6y ago
    > Point 4 is a joke. Exactly. And to the extent that I started to wonder if this whole post is an attempt to troll. The text speak only adds to the impression. With that said, a cursory look suggests the user profile of the submitter appears legit and has contributed meaningfully to other discussions.
    • lifeplusplus 6y ago
      some ppl in my team have been at it, and i've been ignoring it. but now i feel like i've had it and ready to respond in full force, so yea i love coding like a family but that's not where i am.
• solumos 6y ago
  I read one called Workplace Poker a while back, it was pretty good. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0105V634A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_VWNMV7RN5P9SVQB865AE https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0105V634A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_VWNM...
• aero-glide2 6y ago
  This is why I hate office politics.
  • system2 6y ago
    This is why I quit and built my own company from ground up. I can't tolerate office politics it probably is the first reason why there are so many self employed people out there.
    • lifeplusplus 6y ago
      i wish i could too, working on it.. but in mean time i need to level up
• dchuk 6y ago
  Stop abbreviating everything
  • betwixthewires 6y ago
    Seriously. You want to get ahead as a developer? Never let people see you write anything that looks like a collectible Nike ad on OfferUp.
  • samb1729 6y ago
    I wish for the same. This post is a torturous read.
  • lifeplusplus 6y ago
    tell that to HN char count limit, it was painful to get 5k characters count under 2k
• baxtr 6y ago
  While I sincerely hate office politics, I think most people underestimate the value of 2). In order to socialize meaningfully you ought to be curious. And curiosity will spark many new and good things to happen.
• runako 6y ago
  Summarizing, it looks like the "dark patterns" are: 1) work on stuff that's important to the company, but build in public (inside the company) 2) get to know your team 3) work on stuff that's closer to the customer, and #4 cynical comments. Honestly, most of the YC and PG writings will give you more examples of how to do this stuff. And to the extent that you work in a place that gets stuff done, you will find all of these behaviors serve you well.
  • connelldave 6y ago
    This was my takeaway. Being engaged, empathetic and kind isn't a "dark pattern", but it's also not something that can be intellectually dismantled and practiced like leetcode. It's interesting seeing how often other humans are considered oppositional problems and "the solution is self-employment"!
• caseysoftware 6y ago
  Check out the book Corporate Confidential from Cynthia Shapiro. It details a ton of DO's and DON'Ts about career growth, development, and struggles. It was a great read but stung in a few places where I realized my own mistakes. Odds are, you'll have a few of the same. And to be clear, it details how to make yourself valuable in productive ways that benefit your team, department and company vs just being a pain in the ass. Affiliate link if you're interested: https://amzn.to/2MdwZm9 https://amzn.to/2MdwZm9
• joshxyz 6y ago
  WSP has some insights on this https://wallstreetplayboys.com/office-politics-it-only-gets-worse/ https://wallstreetplayboys.com/office-politics-it-only-gets-...
• robjan 6y ago
  If you do these things because you want to rather than trying to trick people into thinking you are interested you will have a more happy and fulfilling career.
• deleted 6y ago
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• throw2737 6y ago
  There are no money in office, job benefits were hollowed out over decades. Invest money into yourself rather than politics and go self employed. And keep low profile in office (and university). Cancel culture and meetoo is real. You never know what current correct opinion is. Or when you make your colleague uncomfortable.
  • robobro 6y ago
    Or future correct opinions!
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• rajacombinator 6y ago
  Pro move - stake out easy projects with clear deliverables for yourself; punt ambiguous or unsupported projects to new or naive people.
• a-dub 6y ago
  be up, out or otherwise shielded by age 35 or otherwise prepare yourself for a world of hurt, especially if you care at all about what you're doing.
• betwixthewires 6y ago
  Sounds like a totally unfulfilling life to me. I've worked with guys like this before. They make you not want to work in software. Build a black box around themselves, become unfirable, make sure to have a say in every design decision even if it is pointless. These types are parasites on any company, when you're the type that genuinely wants to bring value and contribute and learn and solve problems, the sorts of endeavors that actually generate revenue, these guys become needless obstacles. If I were a manager of a team and someone started doing things like this I'd fire them as soon as possible, because they deliberately create technical debt and wear on the rest of the team and erode productivity, and it's best to have them gone before they entrench themselves, which is their goal. There is some good advice in there. Get to know your team and other colleagues. Take an interest in what they're doing. But these things make for a better life and work experience, they're not a means to an end. The only thing that is kind of politicky that I'd say is good is to make sure your work is visible. People forget, take things for granted, it's human nature, so it isn't a bad idea to remind people around you in subtle ways the improvements you've brought. If you do that, you'll be judged in your merit, and if you genuinely bring value that is more than enough. There are certain things I do that may or may not take away political capital, but that ensure you get likes by the people that matter. Number one is to show my genuine disdain for busybody work and inefficiency. Productive people share this sentiment. You might piss off a troublemaker or come across as complaining about something some higher up demands of your team, but you'll make friends that are productive and genuine and you'll create a culture of productivity by ensuring other people are not afraid to voice their concerns about stupid shit either.
• nazgulnarsil 6y ago
  The Ropes to Skip and the Ropes to Know
• prakhar897 6y ago
  Can anybody tell me why anyone would want to join a non-eng team?
  • mavelikara 6y ago
    Of course, there are non-engineer SMEs in those non-eng teams. I think you meant to ask why an engineer would want to join a non-eng team. Software is one of the most powerful force multipliers known to humans. If you are an engineer with strong problem solving skills, you will be able to build software solutions to non-engineering problems. Sometime the best rewards to these solutions come when you are part of a non-eng team. Example, software engineers working in finance.
  • lifeplusplus 6y ago
    team benefits by getting their stuff done asap and not be put in back log for weeks each time.
• deleted 6y ago
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• Tiziano12345 6y ago
  Politics is an INTEGRAL part of organisations. It has widely been studying in all social sciences and particularly in management. Try to read books or articles of J. March or K. Weick or H. Simon ( I'm a talking about scholar with more than 300.000 citations each: they are the foundation of all social sciences) in their manuscript they talk about politics in organisation. We study these in Management PhDs. Enjoy
• tarsinge 6y ago
  Except for 4 how is that “dark”? As a company owner I would love to have an engineer getting interested in the business side and maybe becoming a partner. But I would pass on a sociopath applying a playbook for their personal gain.
  • lifeplusplus 6y ago
    i guess most points aren't dark, but win-win... but it's not normal way of thinking. usually you just take the work, quietly do it, and move onto next one. very few even know that u exist
• Tommah 6y ago
  You may be interested in this blog post: https://daedtech.com/the-7-habits-of-highly-overrated-people/ https://daedtech.com/the-7-habits-of-highly-overrated-people... N.B. The author warns at the end that it is a very bad idea to enact these ideas.
• cipher_system 6y ago
  Just focus on solving problems for people and be a person that people like to be around. Also learn to communicate properly, both in speech and writing. No one appreciates short common words substituted by numbers or single letters.
  • 74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
    To play like this doesn't work for everyone. In a toxic and manipulative environment there is only a very fine line separating your intention of being liked and helpful, and in actuallity being considered a weak person who gladly takes over work from peers. This quickly turns into an expectation which will cause your workload to pile up. In the end your emotional capacity will drain and you'll act more touchy which will turn you into this weirdo who can't say no but isn't liked either. Then you start to decline requests. Now groups of co-scheming colleagues will be after you - they'll start to complain about how you're refusing to work on requests and will use their well lubricated channels to higher ups to bad mouth you. Those types of people also find this to be fun - so they'll make sure there is going to be a tag on your forhead saying "douch bag" and bring you intentionally into weird situations with outsiders.
• jacknews 6y ago
  48 laws of power, Robert Greene, along with The Prince, Art of War, etc. All need translating to an office setting, and I'm not sure they document "Dark patterns" so much as "The ugly truth".
• npteljes 6y ago
  These are dark patterns only if you exaggerate them as such. There is a lot of good that you can do along the same lines. Reflecting to your points: 1. Communication is key. People can't magically share your experience, you have to share it with them deliberately. 2. Basically the same topic. The brain is lazy and often tries to take the shorter route. Regarding other people, it's easier to think that they are simple, one-dimensional beings, and as such, it's easier to judge them. So, in order to be viewed as a human, you need to share what it means being you. If you humanize yourself, and try to remember others as human, you will get more positive outcomes not because ugly politics, but because you are a better company. 3. Caring about problems people don't like to care about? I think that can be really fulfilling and yes, if others see that you're not afraid to tackle undesirable problems, they'll think you're useful. 4. This is something that is a true bad behavior. There's also a flipside that you'll now be stuck with your miserable code yourself. Also any competent manager or teammate will spot this and work against you, which you don't want. My advice would be that it's best to stay away from workplaces where politics go like this, it just will bring misery on the long term. One has to play the game to some extent, but there's a lot of difference in only playing the game and using everyone, and just adapting to how humans work in a social setting and working with that.
• 74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
  A lot of people argue that there is no point in getting acquainted with toxic office politics and instead one should leave for a more healthy work place. Theoretically I support this sentiment but - as far as I can tell there are practically no work places without toxic office politics. The only difference is the degree to which it impacts the overall work experience. Also engineers are traditionally placed at the end of the pecking order. I intentionally say "placed" because it is not so much a result of the individual engineer's personality as it is already a fundamental result of usual office politics. Engineers suffer from various systemic weaknesses which are difficult and sometimes impossible to overcome. For example regarding office communication. IT is usually considered a separate part of the company which receives orders and is expected to deliver. Also IT is full of youngsters who willingly succumb to office politics manipulating them into believing that overhours, a modest salery and fearful obedience to management are virtues paving their way to being respected, thanked and provided with a career. So, as a "woke" engineer you not just quarreling with outside forces but also have to effectively compete with colleagues in a frustrating race to the bottom.
• huijzer 6y ago
  > I've noticed who writes the best code doesn't matter and there're opportunities which no one will offer, u have to take them Maybe Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink would interest you. For example, he talks about playing the long game. Those petty office politics will maybe make you win in the short-term, but in the long run I have much more confidence in Jocko's take on work.
• kingofpandora 6y ago
  Politics or not, you aren't like to go far writing u, ur and u're.
  • lifeplusplus 6y ago
    word count was over 5000 had to bring it down to 2000
• cannabis_sam 6y ago
  >use new tech As someone who believe in pushing the envelope on new tech, I always try to consider the actual situation (i.e. current tech stack in the company, competence within the team, effects on future hiring, a reasonable onboarding path for new hires. Etc.) It’s hard work, and it is honestly infuriating that these frauds would abuse it to create a career moat around themselves.
• mam2 6y ago
  48 laws of power