7 ms·

Soon it'll include a browser and email client. Can't wait!

by chunkyks 6y ago

__turbobrew__ 6y ago
GNU/Linux will soon be replaced by Systemd/Linux
- Karunamon 6y ago
  You meme, but they're eating so many userspace components that this is actually where I see them heading. Just wait until ls has to have hooks into dbus to do its job.
- marcodiego 6y ago
  Actually, I don't think something like busybox included in systemd is necessarily bad. You could have a system recoverable even if everything else breaks. Of course, it would really enable systemd/linux.
  - hexo 6y ago
    It doesnt need to be included in systemd for that.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Shhhh. Don't give them ideas. Including busybox in the initrd or whatever it's called now is probably a good idea. Having systemd developers write a new interpretation of that, rehashing old bugs is not great.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    Most of what you would need to cobble together a busybox like binary is there in the systemd/src/basic directory. stat-util, procfs-util, sort-util, path-util, and so on.
  - anthk 6y ago
    OpenBSD has a ramdisk for that.
- infradig 6y ago
  You mean GNU/Systemd.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    No a Linux/Systemd, which uses LLVM for building Linux and Systemd, replaces all core utils with non GNU versions. It use a non GNU libc and so on... But that aside people often confuse/mixup the systemd service manager and the systemd project which bundles a wide variety of programs which can be used with systemd. The reasons for this is because systemd itself confuses this. The change log is not split by sub-projects and the sub-projects have sometimes no clean boundary between them and the systemd service manager. I think it would be nice if systemd changes in three ways: 1. Have more clean boundaries between the core service manager and it's sub-project. 2. Have a recurring periods where new features are blocked from being merged and development focused on cleaning up (e.g. fixing bugs). (I can recommend that to any projects, very few do so). 3. Get "outside" feedback for certain mainly UX aspects, some parts of systemd are out right counter intuitive unless you are not very familiar with it. A thinks which is very easy to happen to any project, but still could be improved on (and maybe already is improved on). Oh and there where a very few security WTF are you doing moments, I hope there will be no more such moments in the future as systemd on itself it quite useful for Linux, especially desktop Linux.
- linguae 6y ago
  I actually seriously foresee a split occurring in the Linux community that will also affect users of other Unix-like operating systems. On one side you have modern Linux software projects like systemd and Wayland. These projects address deficiencies in traditional solutions, but certain design choices in these projects have not been well-received by more traditional users of Linux and the BSDs. The increase in the amount of user-level software that depends on systemd and Wayland is a forcing factor. For example, my understanding is that official distributions of GNOME depend on systemd, and many Linux desktops are being actively developed for Wayland (though I don't think any major desktop environment or toolkit has abandoned X11). I expect this trend to continue, given that systemd is part of the most popular Linux distributions, Wayland will be default in Ubuntu (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-21.04-Wayland-Default https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-2...), and GNOME runs on Wayland (with KDE's port to Wayland being actively developed: see https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021-Roadmap https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021...). So, yes, I do see a split occurring between "modern Linux" (with systemd and Wayland) and "traditional Linux," with the BSDs fitting in closer to the "traditional Linux" camp.
  - blueflow 6y ago
    The split has already happened - Void and Alpine Linux seem to be on the traditional Linux side, everything with the musl libc in general.
  - VLM 6y ago
    Its the death of the meme of the "universal OS". There will be Linux for desktops to run a web browser (aka poorly emulate a chromebook) and for docker and docker only. If you want a non-containerized server or some kind of non-desktop embedded thingy, or anything that can be computed other than emulating a chromebook and doing containers, you'll have to run FreeBSD or some other OS. The days of "just install Debian to do anything anywhere" are gone, which is sad, because there's really no technical reason or need for the destruction.
    - zokier 6y ago
hexo 6y ago
Every time I see all the stuff packed into it I feel extreme urge to switch to freebsd again. Oomd, oh yea, good idea, but WHY it has to be in systemd? The same applies to about 3/4 of things in there. Because of this i've started to call it LennartOS. And also I don't feel like linux is about freedom anymore but more like some sort of weird power display games.
- Gaelan 6y ago
  You're concerned about a project gaining too many features, so you… move to FreeBSD, an OS where everything is developed as one project?
- edoceo 6y ago
  Come to Gentoo! I've been booting with OpenRC since forever have have completely ignored the systemd drama. The only thing eating my userspace is me.
  - disposekinetics 6y ago
    I can second this, recent Gentoo has been a pleasure to work with.
    - mrlonglong 6y ago
      You can use Gnome 3 without systemd. Biggest plus point about Gentoo. Love it to bits even if it gives me headaches sometimes !
- cmeacham98 6y ago
  This is a common mistake. systemd-oomd is not "in" systemd the init system. Similar to systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd, systemd-boot, and others it just has the systemd name because it is developed by the systemd team. A minimal system using sytemd for the init system and other software for everything else only needs sytemd, dbus, and journald. I use several of these projects because I like the systemd design philosophy (ex the way the CLI interface and config files are) and trust the developers of their software. However, there are popular altenatives available for all of these components, should you choose to use them: systemd-resolved: bind9, dnsmasq, powerdns systemd-networkd: NetworkManager, ConnMan systemd-boot: GRUB2, Refind, EFISTUB systemd-oomd: earlyoom, nohang, oomd (the facebook one, not systemd)
rkangel 6y ago
The issue here is branding, not engineering or design. Systemd is an umbrella under which many key userspace tools are being developed. The actual init system itself is a lot bigger than the old SysV Init system was, but it is separate than all these other things that also say Systemd on them. The best analogy is GNU. You don't complain that GNU contains a compiler, and also a text editor, and also C System Library do you? GNU is a project that develops a load of components that play well with each other. Systemd is the same.

Soon it'll include a browser and email client. Can't wait!

__turbobrew__ 6y ago

GNU/Linux will soon be replaced by Systemd/Linux

Karunamon 6y ago
You meme, but they're eating so many userspace components that this is actually where I see them heading. Just wait until ls has to have hooks into dbus to do its job.
marcodiego 6y ago
Actually, I don't think something like busybox included in systemd is necessarily bad. You could have a system recoverable even if everything else breaks. Of course, it would really enable systemd/linux.
- hexo 6y ago
  It doesnt need to be included in systemd for that.
- toast0 6y ago
  Shhhh. Don't give them ideas. Including busybox in the initrd or whatever it's called now is probably a good idea. Having systemd developers write a new interpretation of that, rehashing old bugs is not great.
- tyingq 6y ago
  Most of what you would need to cobble together a busybox like binary is there in the systemd/src/basic directory. stat-util, procfs-util, sort-util, path-util, and so on.
- anthk 6y ago
  OpenBSD has a ramdisk for that.
infradig 6y ago
You mean GNU/Systemd.
- dathinab 6y ago
  No a Linux/Systemd, which uses LLVM for building Linux and Systemd, replaces all core utils with non GNU versions. It use a non GNU libc and so on... But that aside people often confuse/mixup the systemd service manager and the systemd project which bundles a wide variety of programs which can be used with systemd. The reasons for this is because systemd itself confuses this. The change log is not split by sub-projects and the sub-projects have sometimes no clean boundary between them and the systemd service manager. I think it would be nice if systemd changes in three ways: 1. Have more clean boundaries between the core service manager and it's sub-project. 2. Have a recurring periods where new features are blocked from being merged and development focused on cleaning up (e.g. fixing bugs). (I can recommend that to any projects, very few do so). 3. Get "outside" feedback for certain mainly UX aspects, some parts of systemd are out right counter intuitive unless you are not very familiar with it. A thinks which is very easy to happen to any project, but still could be improved on (and maybe already is improved on). Oh and there where a very few security WTF are you doing moments, I hope there will be no more such moments in the future as systemd on itself it quite useful for Linux, especially desktop Linux.
linguae 6y ago
I actually seriously foresee a split occurring in the Linux community that will also affect users of other Unix-like operating systems. On one side you have modern Linux software projects like systemd and Wayland. These projects address deficiencies in traditional solutions, but certain design choices in these projects have not been well-received by more traditional users of Linux and the BSDs. The increase in the amount of user-level software that depends on systemd and Wayland is a forcing factor. For example, my understanding is that official distributions of GNOME depend on systemd, and many Linux desktops are being actively developed for Wayland (though I don't think any major desktop environment or toolkit has abandoned X11). I expect this trend to continue, given that systemd is part of the most popular Linux distributions, Wayland will be default in Ubuntu (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-21.04-Wayland-Default https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-2...), and GNOME runs on Wayland (with KDE's port to Wayland being actively developed: see https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021-Roadmap https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-2021...). So, yes, I do see a split occurring between "modern Linux" (with systemd and Wayland) and "traditional Linux," with the BSDs fitting in closer to the "traditional Linux" camp.
- blueflow 6y ago
  The split has already happened - Void and Alpine Linux seem to be on the traditional Linux side, everything with the musl libc in general.
- VLM 6y ago
  Its the death of the meme of the "universal OS". There will be Linux for desktops to run a web browser (aka poorly emulate a chromebook) and for docker and docker only. If you want a non-containerized server or some kind of non-desktop embedded thingy, or anything that can be computed other than emulating a chromebook and doing containers, you'll have to run FreeBSD or some other OS. The days of "just install Debian to do anything anywhere" are gone, which is sad, because there's really no technical reason or need for the destruction.
  - zokier 6y ago

hexo 6y ago

Every time I see all the stuff packed into it I feel extreme urge to switch to freebsd again. Oomd, oh yea, good idea, but WHY it has to be in systemd? The same applies to about 3/4 of things in there. Because of this i've started to call it LennartOS. And also I don't feel like linux is about freedom anymore but more like some sort of weird power display games.

Gaelan 6y ago
You're concerned about a project gaining too many features, so you… move to FreeBSD, an OS where everything is developed as one project?
edoceo 6y ago
Come to Gentoo! I've been booting with OpenRC since forever have have completely ignored the systemd drama. The only thing eating my userspace is me.
- disposekinetics 6y ago
  I can second this, recent Gentoo has been a pleasure to work with.
  - mrlonglong 6y ago
    You can use Gnome 3 without systemd. Biggest plus point about Gentoo. Love it to bits even if it gives me headaches sometimes !
cmeacham98 6y ago
This is a common mistake. systemd-oomd is not "in" systemd the init system. Similar to systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd, systemd-boot, and others it just has the systemd name because it is developed by the systemd team. A minimal system using sytemd for the init system and other software for everything else only needs sytemd, dbus, and journald. I use several of these projects because I like the systemd design philosophy (ex the way the CLI interface and config files are) and trust the developers of their software. However, there are popular altenatives available for all of these components, should you choose to use them: systemd-resolved: bind9, dnsmasq, powerdns systemd-networkd: NetworkManager, ConnMan systemd-boot: GRUB2, Refind, EFISTUB systemd-oomd: earlyoom, nohang, oomd (the facebook one, not systemd)

rkangel 6y ago

The issue here is branding, not engineering or design. Systemd is an umbrella under which many key userspace tools are being developed. The actual init system itself is a lot bigger than the old SysV Init system was, but it is separate than all these other things that also say Systemd on them. The best analogy is GNU. You don't complain that GNU contains a compiler, and also a text editor, and also C System Library do you? GNU is a project that develops a load of components that play well with each other. Systemd is the same.