6 ms·

From the article: "Questions like 'is a computer creative' or 'is a computer an artist' or the like should not be considered serious questions, period." Inter

by klik99 6y ago

From the article: "Questions like 'is a computer creative' or 'is a computer an artist' or the like should not be considered serious questions, period." Interesting that the concept that the computer is somehow doing the art itself, missing the point that a computer is a tool just like a paintbrush, was even around in '71. One wonders when the paintbrush was invented if people argued people should still finger paint, and that the paintbrush alienated artists from their work. There's a tendency to see all technology from before you were born as natural, and anything newer as unnatural.

nimih 6y ago
The same argument also played out over the course of the 20th century around the status of photography as an art form and how it changes the relationship between the artist and their subject--Sontag's _On Photography_ is probably the best known collection of writing on the topic, but you could probably find a decent overview in any modern art history text.
NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
Professional art is whatever you can sell as such. What i find boring with western art is that it is completely dependent on the critic and the discourse statement, in text, that must accompany any "serious" work of art. Zen and objects created under that philosophy makes no distinction between "high" and "low" art. There are multiple other approaches outside of the western paradigm. The writer of the article is selling a monetary-driven agenda, as they are dependent on getting paid for their strong-worded texts, while refusing to address that particular elephant in the room, connecting western art and discourse. How tedious.
- andrepd 6y ago
  There is much art being done outside of "erudite" circles. But still, all art is dependant on the appreciation of others.
  - shkkmo 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure you can make art purely for yourself and never show it to anyone else.
    - derefr 6y ago
      You can make something, but what, then, makes it art? Or, to put that another way: if there is only one animal alive in a forest, and that animal produces noise intentionally, but has no organ for sensing noise, have they made a “sound”? Some words are only meaningful in the context of interpersonal communication. “Art” is, IMHO, one of them. Without an observer secondary to the artist, the question “is this art” has a NULL answer. Not an arbitrary one — a lack of one. Because encoded in the meaning of the word “art” is the assumption that you’re asking someone else that question.
      - ctdonath 6y ago
        My working definition of "art": that which is created for the sufficient purpose of being perceived. This definition does not require the audience be not the artist. If one creates an instance for the sole purpose of being perceived by one's self alone, that is still art.
        NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
        This is why i concentrate on "professional art". It's a commercial endeavor. Often, it excludes the creator. Art sure is more valuable once the artist is dead, from a dealers perspective. As for what is "art" in general? Whatever you want it to be! If you have to buy a book or go to school to figure it out, you just engaged in commerical / professional art, as a buyer. Back to commercial art we go.
        derefr 6y ago
        My thought process here was that that is not a useful definition, because all the extra stuff this definition lets in, is not stuff people would usually agree to call “art” / understand your meaning if you referred to it as “art.” Let me try my analogy again: if you’re the last human alive, and you invent a bunch of words used for thinking to yourself, are those a “language”? Or are they merely a verbal shorthand or formalism or mnemonic for your thought processes? IMHO, the word “language” only has a meaning/application in the context of two or more agents speaking. It is a protocol to allow agents without exactly the same mind to share thoughts, by putting those thoughts into a standardized schema separate from one’s own internal mental schema. If only you (or you and emulated copies of yourself) are communicating, then you won’t need such a separate model—you can just transmit the internal schema data structures directly.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  By that definition seeking snake oil is also anything snake oil is because you are selling it as “not snake oil”.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Plenty of art is sold on the basis of the work it’s self. But, that doesn’t qualify as high art. The difference between what you’re paying 5k vs 500k is almost completely about the story around the art not the actual art on it’s own merits.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      You just repeated what I said
- yoz-y 6y ago
  I feel that if you reject or ignore the critics and the elaborate descriptions, you can appreciate art as you like. (And by extension consider whatever you like as art.)
- crooked-v 6y ago
  > What i find boring with western art is that it is completely dependent on the critic and the discourse statement, in text, that must accompany any "serious" work of art. I live near a large art museum that has, for each piece, a plaque with the name, artist, year, and at most a paragraph or two of usually-historical context (and sometimes not even that).
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  Any piece of work that does not speak for itself, i dont consider art. The works of the great masters can be appreciated even by children. They speak for themselves.
  - anaerobicover 6y ago
    Be careful here, because even those that seem to speak for themselves require (cultural) context to appreciate fully. Take Rembrandt's portrait of St. Bartholomew. It's unquestionably a skilled production, and aesthetically pleasing. But it's also, on its face, just an old guy holding a knife. If you learn the guy's name from the plaque next to the frame, and you know the word "saint" and are familiar with the reasons that title is applied, that probably gives you some impression that the knife is not going to be used to eat supper. (It's interesting to imagine viewing the and not knowing these things, in my opinion.) But only if you actually know St. Bart's (horrific) story do you understand the look on his face and really grasp the depth of Rembrandt's depiction. This same problem applies to modern->contemporary art. In some cases the cultural context is, ironically, "people thought art should be produced for its own sake", which is harder to engage with if you happen to also not like the surface aesthetic. But it doesn't stop the artifacts from being art.
    - vagrantJin 6y ago
      Well, I'm not an art collector or have any deep interest in art. Partly because I'm ignorant, with a dash of stupid and very broke. That being said I can appreciate workmanship, artisanal detail and peserverance of craftsmanship - whether a person builds a table, lays bricks, sculpts statues, or paints like Rembrandt. Where lifelong sweat and blood drips on a piece of work, it leaves an indellible mark of both talent and absurb obsession. It's hard to get that feeling in abstract art. It feels like a my toddler niece lashed out on a canvas and some pompus grey beard is telling me about emotional turmoil being expressed on a canvas. That turns my stomach. It's elitist and my eyes are too poor or it's just crap. The argument ofcourse becomes photorealism isn't art. My very ignorant view says art should capture the moment. While imagery/photography should capture a moment.
- deltron3030 6y ago
  There is no professional art imo, the professionalism makes it design. Art and design are opposites. In its purest form the former is about expressing yourself, the latter about resonating with others. If you create "art" with the intention for it to resonate with others (e.g. to make money selling it) you're designing.
- Talanes 6y ago
  >The writer of the article is selling a monetary-driven agenda Did we read entirely different articles? The one posted above is very much a creed against money-driven fads among artists.
  - NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
    The writer is writing on "what is art", while being a gallery represented professional artist (i.e. sold his art in the system) and a paid professor(again, professional system player). It's brand awareness building, also known as self-promotion. "See, I'm in the racquet, but I'm not like the others!" He went on to publish a book on the subject, 3 years later. [ source : gallery statement, wikipedia ] He is pushing art as politics and himself as the arbiter, all while preaching in the royal "We". Like I wrote, how tedious.
gradys 6y ago
The computer as a tool for an individual to use is a perspective that comes naturally to us now, but note that this article was written before even the Alto and the Apple II, and a decade before the IBM PC. Interactive computing was a fringe idea that only a relatively small set of people were thinking about. Computing meant batch computing.
swayvil 6y ago
A computer works with symbols. A brush works with marks. The latter is a larger infinity. It's like the difference between digital and analog. Or raster and vector. Or map and territory.
- anaerobicover 6y ago
  Surely maps are a larger infinity than territories? I can easily draw maps of territories that do not, have not, and even cannot exist. Likewise symbols and brushmarks. I can describe brushmarks that could never be physically realized.
  - swayvil 6y ago
    But those map-artifacts are not real things. They are just symbols.
codeulike 6y ago
Seems to me that the author of the article is very aware that the computer is not doing the art itself. His point is more subtle than might be apparent from the headline. My reading of it is kindof that at the time (and I'm sure since) "art dealers" were pushing a new fad every few years and the 1970s fuss about computer art was very faddy. Questions like 'is a computer an artist' are relevent now, but likely weren't very relevant in 1970, and so were what we would now call hype. The author is still around - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieder_Nake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieder_Nake And still has lots to say - https://twitter.com/carlcanary https://twitter.com/carlcanary
hellbannedguy 6y ago
My issue forever is where do you draw the line? Automated computer generated art is as beautiful as the greatest paintings. Do we end up calling the team of programmers whom coded the program——Artists, or is it just the user of the powerful program? Artist in the traditional sense? I remember working out at Muir Woods years in the 90’s. A new guy was telling me what he wanted to do with his life. He told me he wanted to become a computer Artist. I remember both of us debating at what point is the tool more powerful than the person. He was dead set on computer art is just art. Their was no line to cross. I’m still unsure. I don’t want to get into a debate either. (If the guy I had the conversation with happens to read this, I hope you are doing well. I hope you are in this industry, and happy. I always felt you were going to make it big.)
- eigenhombre 6y ago
  > Automated computer generated art is as beautiful as the greatest paintings. As someone who paints daily and has made a lifetime study of painting, including visiting museums locally and worldwide, as well as trying to stay abreast of the "state of the art" of the use of computers in art (as well as writing software as a day job for decades), I am puzzled by this statement. The greatest paintings, "in the flesh," simply have a punch and an impact that, to my eyes, has not been rivaled by the "state of the art" in digital renderings of any kind, or indeed in any works where a mechanical process is anything but a small factor in the completed work. I would be fascinated to see what you consider to be examples of "automated computer-generated art" that rivals the works of Rembrandt, Titian, Velazquez, or anyone in the top tier of art history. Those artists are world-famous (not just now, but for centuries) for a reason, but you often have to get in the same room with the works to see why.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    One wonders if the impact is imparted not by the piece, then, but by the room. There are elements of physical texture and contrast present in physical works, but is the difference between the Mona Lisa and a high-quality print of the Mona Lisa the brushstrokes, or that one is in the Louvre?
amelius 6y ago
> One wonders when the paintbrush was invented if people argued people should still finger paint, and that the paintbrush alienated artists from their work. But how about tracing-paper? Or even a camera obscura? [1] [1] https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/11/vermeer-secret-tool-mirrors-lenses https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/11/vermeer-secret-to...

by klik99 6y ago

nimih 6y ago

The same argument also played out over the course of the 20th century around the status of photography as an art form and how it changes the relationship between the artist and their subject--Sontag's _On Photography_ is probably the best known collection of writing on the topic, but you could probably find a decent overview in any modern art history text.

NotPavlovsDog 6y ago

Professional art is whatever you can sell as such. What i find boring with western art is that it is completely dependent on the critic and the discourse statement, in text, that must accompany any "serious" work of art. Zen and objects created under that philosophy makes no distinction between "high" and "low" art. There are multiple other approaches outside of the western paradigm. The writer of the article is selling a monetary-driven agenda, as they are dependent on getting paid for their strong-worded texts, while refusing to address that particular elephant in the room, connecting western art and discourse. How tedious.

andrepd 6y ago
There is much art being done outside of "erudite" circles. But still, all art is dependant on the appreciation of others.
- shkkmo 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure you can make art purely for yourself and never show it to anyone else.
  - derefr 6y ago
    You can make something, but what, then, makes it art? Or, to put that another way: if there is only one animal alive in a forest, and that animal produces noise intentionally, but has no organ for sensing noise, have they made a “sound”? Some words are only meaningful in the context of interpersonal communication. “Art” is, IMHO, one of them. Without an observer secondary to the artist, the question “is this art” has a NULL answer. Not an arbitrary one — a lack of one. Because encoded in the meaning of the word “art” is the assumption that you’re asking someone else that question.
    - ctdonath 6y ago
      My working definition of "art": that which is created for the sufficient purpose of being perceived. This definition does not require the audience be not the artist. If one creates an instance for the sole purpose of being perceived by one's self alone, that is still art.
      - NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
        This is why i concentrate on "professional art". It's a commercial endeavor. Often, it excludes the creator. Art sure is more valuable once the artist is dead, from a dealers perspective. As for what is "art" in general? Whatever you want it to be! If you have to buy a book or go to school to figure it out, you just engaged in commerical / professional art, as a buyer. Back to commercial art we go.
      - derefr 6y ago
        My thought process here was that that is not a useful definition, because all the extra stuff this definition lets in, is not stuff people would usually agree to call “art” / understand your meaning if you referred to it as “art.” Let me try my analogy again: if you’re the last human alive, and you invent a bunch of words used for thinking to yourself, are those a “language”? Or are they merely a verbal shorthand or formalism or mnemonic for your thought processes? IMHO, the word “language” only has a meaning/application in the context of two or more agents speaking. It is a protocol to allow agents without exactly the same mind to share thoughts, by putting those thoughts into a standardized schema separate from one’s own internal mental schema. If only you (or you and emulated copies of yourself) are communicating, then you won’t need such a separate model—you can just transmit the internal schema data structures directly.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
By that definition seeking snake oil is also anything snake oil is because you are selling it as “not snake oil”.
- Retric 6y ago
  Plenty of art is sold on the basis of the work it’s self. But, that doesn’t qualify as high art. The difference between what you’re paying 5k vs 500k is almost completely about the story around the art not the actual art on it’s own merits.
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago
    You just repeated what I said
yoz-y 6y ago
I feel that if you reject or ignore the critics and the elaborate descriptions, you can appreciate art as you like. (And by extension consider whatever you like as art.)
crooked-v 6y ago
> What i find boring with western art is that it is completely dependent on the critic and the discourse statement, in text, that must accompany any "serious" work of art. I live near a large art museum that has, for each piece, a plaque with the name, artist, year, and at most a paragraph or two of usually-historical context (and sometimes not even that).
vagrantJin 6y ago
Any piece of work that does not speak for itself, i dont consider art. The works of the great masters can be appreciated even by children. They speak for themselves.
- anaerobicover 6y ago
  Be careful here, because even those that seem to speak for themselves require (cultural) context to appreciate fully. Take Rembrandt's portrait of St. Bartholomew. It's unquestionably a skilled production, and aesthetically pleasing. But it's also, on its face, just an old guy holding a knife. If you learn the guy's name from the plaque next to the frame, and you know the word "saint" and are familiar with the reasons that title is applied, that probably gives you some impression that the knife is not going to be used to eat supper. (It's interesting to imagine viewing the and not knowing these things, in my opinion.) But only if you actually know St. Bart's (horrific) story do you understand the look on his face and really grasp the depth of Rembrandt's depiction. This same problem applies to modern->contemporary art. In some cases the cultural context is, ironically, "people thought art should be produced for its own sake", which is harder to engage with if you happen to also not like the surface aesthetic. But it doesn't stop the artifacts from being art.
  - vagrantJin 6y ago
    Well, I'm not an art collector or have any deep interest in art. Partly because I'm ignorant, with a dash of stupid and very broke. That being said I can appreciate workmanship, artisanal detail and peserverance of craftsmanship - whether a person builds a table, lays bricks, sculpts statues, or paints like Rembrandt. Where lifelong sweat and blood drips on a piece of work, it leaves an indellible mark of both talent and absurb obsession. It's hard to get that feeling in abstract art. It feels like a my toddler niece lashed out on a canvas and some pompus grey beard is telling me about emotional turmoil being expressed on a canvas. That turns my stomach. It's elitist and my eyes are too poor or it's just crap. The argument ofcourse becomes photorealism isn't art. My very ignorant view says art should capture the moment. While imagery/photography should capture a moment.
deltron3030 6y ago
There is no professional art imo, the professionalism makes it design. Art and design are opposites. In its purest form the former is about expressing yourself, the latter about resonating with others. If you create "art" with the intention for it to resonate with others (e.g. to make money selling it) you're designing.
Talanes 6y ago
>The writer of the article is selling a monetary-driven agenda Did we read entirely different articles? The one posted above is very much a creed against money-driven fads among artists.
- NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
  The writer is writing on "what is art", while being a gallery represented professional artist (i.e. sold his art in the system) and a paid professor(again, professional system player). It's brand awareness building, also known as self-promotion. "See, I'm in the racquet, but I'm not like the others!" He went on to publish a book on the subject, 3 years later. [ source : gallery statement, wikipedia ] He is pushing art as politics and himself as the arbiter, all while preaching in the royal "We". Like I wrote, how tedious.

gradys 6y ago

The computer as a tool for an individual to use is a perspective that comes naturally to us now, but note that this article was written before even the Alto and the Apple II, and a decade before the IBM PC. Interactive computing was a fringe idea that only a relatively small set of people were thinking about. Computing meant batch computing.

swayvil 6y ago

A computer works with symbols. A brush works with marks. The latter is a larger infinity. It's like the difference between digital and analog. Or raster and vector. Or map and territory.

anaerobicover 6y ago
Surely maps are a larger infinity than territories? I can easily draw maps of territories that do not, have not, and even cannot exist. Likewise symbols and brushmarks. I can describe brushmarks that could never be physically realized.
- swayvil 6y ago
  But those map-artifacts are not real things. They are just symbols.

codeulike 6y ago

Seems to me that the author of the article is very aware that the computer is not doing the art itself. His point is more subtle than might be apparent from the headline. My reading of it is kindof that at the time (and I'm sure since) "art dealers" were pushing a new fad every few years and the 1970s fuss about computer art was very faddy. Questions like 'is a computer an artist' are relevent now, but likely weren't very relevant in 1970, and so were what we would now call hype. The author is still around - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieder_Nake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieder_Nake And still has lots to say - https://twitter.com/carlcanary https://twitter.com/carlcanary

hellbannedguy 6y ago

My issue forever is where do you draw the line? Automated computer generated art is as beautiful as the greatest paintings. Do we end up calling the team of programmers whom coded the program——Artists, or is it just the user of the powerful program? Artist in the traditional sense? I remember working out at Muir Woods years in the 90’s. A new guy was telling me what he wanted to do with his life. He told me he wanted to become a computer Artist. I remember both of us debating at what point is the tool more powerful than the person. He was dead set on computer art is just art. Their was no line to cross. I’m still unsure. I don’t want to get into a debate either. (If the guy I had the conversation with happens to read this, I hope you are doing well. I hope you are in this industry, and happy. I always felt you were going to make it big.)

eigenhombre 6y ago
> Automated computer generated art is as beautiful as the greatest paintings. As someone who paints daily and has made a lifetime study of painting, including visiting museums locally and worldwide, as well as trying to stay abreast of the "state of the art" of the use of computers in art (as well as writing software as a day job for decades), I am puzzled by this statement. The greatest paintings, "in the flesh," simply have a punch and an impact that, to my eyes, has not been rivaled by the "state of the art" in digital renderings of any kind, or indeed in any works where a mechanical process is anything but a small factor in the completed work. I would be fascinated to see what you consider to be examples of "automated computer-generated art" that rivals the works of Rembrandt, Titian, Velazquez, or anyone in the top tier of art history. Those artists are world-famous (not just now, but for centuries) for a reason, but you often have to get in the same room with the works to see why.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  One wonders if the impact is imparted not by the piece, then, but by the room. There are elements of physical texture and contrast present in physical works, but is the difference between the Mona Lisa and a high-quality print of the Mona Lisa the brushstrokes, or that one is in the Louvre?

amelius 6y ago

> One wonders when the paintbrush was invented if people argued people should still finger paint, and that the paintbrush alienated artists from their work. But how about tracing-paper? Or even a camera obscura? [1] [1] https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/11/vermeer-secret-tool-mirrors-lenses https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/11/vermeer-secret-to...