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Ha. Are you kidding? A million people are killed directly every year by cars. Many more are seriously injured and disabled. Another million indirectly due to

Ha. Are you kidding? A million people are killed directly every year by cars. Many more are seriously injured and disabled. Another million indirectly due to air pollution. They are also the number one cause of micro plastics around waterways. Billions are spent on hospitals, doctors, nurses, ambulances, police to support all this death. Much more is spent covering our countryside on roads, that kill millions of animals every year. And encouraging urban sprawl means cities take up more space, destroying wild life habitat. This is just some of the awful things cars have bought to our world, not mentioned are wars, major spills, toppled governments, bribery, etc...

azinman2 6y ago
Yet you seem to own a computer and presumably are ok with that?
- Jonnax 6y ago
  If someone feels like making what they see as a positive impact by making a lifestyle choice. What's the point in saying: "But you do some unrelated thing???" Is the argument that there's no point in making a small difference, it's only worth it if you're 100% ideologically pure? Because I don't see where road deaths and microplastics in local rivers come into owning a computer.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    Computers themselves are a hodgepodge of resources extracted often horrendously from all over the world. Child labor for cobalt, various other rare earth products violently extracted with extreme acids scalding lands and polluting water sources, consuming vast quantities of oil to ship all these raw materials to then be assembled in massive factories with poorly paid workers, using terrible chemicals that can poison the workers and harm their babies… The reality is almost all of modern technology, materials, tools, and life have huge externalities. Us being alive consuming resources and emitting green house gases further pushes us towards terrible climate changes, while taking away space from nature before us. It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car ownership but maintain the benefits of all other externalities. Perhaps the OP also has many other resists to modern life under ethical guise. The computer is the one known exception here.
    - Jonnax 6y ago
      It isn't a gotcha to say they own a computer. Making a choice not to buy a car makes a measurable impact. It's not a gotcha to say that they partake in society. By your logic, it'd be arbitrary to safely dispose of motor oil instead of conveniently dumping it into the local park's pond.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      >It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car ownership but maintain the benefits of all other externalities. Yes, it's incredibly arbitrary because cars don't suffer from low density development patterns. They don't cause pollution. They also don't cost a significant amount of money and this also doesn't force less well off people to get expensive leases because everyone buys low end cars. The tax burden of suburbia is absolutely insignificant. The fact that you have more roads per resident decreases the tax burden significantly. Their only fatal flaw is that new developments aren't funded by the federal government and private developers. Thanks to cars and suburbia municipalities are swimming in cash and never have to worry about their finances. We should ban bicycles and pedestrian paths. Everyone should drive, even children. This is the future.
    - bildung 6y ago
      > It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car ownership but maintain the benefits of all other externalities. It stops feeling like that once you replace assumptions with numbers.
- imtringued 6y ago
  He also has the audacity to exist, how dare he live! Let's throw stones at him for consuming any form of resource!, no matter how insignificant!
- teddyh 6y ago
  “Yet you participate in society! Curious.” — Mister Gotcha (https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/)
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    Pretty appropriate response to “cars are unethical” as well. For a huge number of people, especially in the United States, not having a car makes it essentially impossible to have a job.
    - mpol 6y ago
      “cars are unethical” That was not what he said. He was quite clear in making a personal decision. There was no force on anyone to make that same decision. That you are reading that into it might say more about the way you think :)
      - tshaddox 6y ago
        On the topic of reading too much into things, note that I didn’t say anything about force or it not being a personal decision either.
brabel 6y ago
Also, making a new car, even an electric one, takes a huge amount of resources. "Producing a medium-sized new car costing £24,000 may generate more than 17 tonnes of CO2e – almost as much as three years' worth of gas and electricity in the typical UK home."[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  Electric cars are even worse: they typically don't achieve carbon parity with same-class ICE until about 70,000km. This was discussed recently here on HN, I'll try to find the conversation. Edit: here's the conversation, with link to source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24716921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24716921 It's about 50,000 to 112,00km depending on the source of electricity used to charge the electric car.
  - SECProto 6y ago
    You say "even worse", I say "much better". Reaching carbon parity means any car driven more than that creates less carbon emissions. People I know run their cars until 300,000km and our power is >90% nuclear and hydro.
  - house9-2 6y ago
    This is a pretty good article on ICE vs EV https://www.motorbiscuit.com/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-than-gas-cars/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the... > ... compared to most gasoline-powered cars, an electric car should become carbon neutral in less than 3 years of driving.
    - midasuni 6y ago
      Us average car mileage for new cars is on the order of 15-20,000 a year. So 3 years would be 80,000km which checks out.
  - aoeusnth1 6y ago

azinman2 6y ago

Yet you seem to own a computer and presumably are ok with that?

Jonnax 6y ago
If someone feels like making what they see as a positive impact by making a lifestyle choice. What's the point in saying: "But you do some unrelated thing???" Is the argument that there's no point in making a small difference, it's only worth it if you're 100% ideologically pure? Because I don't see where road deaths and microplastics in local rivers come into owning a computer.
- azinman2 6y ago
  Computers themselves are a hodgepodge of resources extracted often horrendously from all over the world. Child labor for cobalt, various other rare earth products violently extracted with extreme acids scalding lands and polluting water sources, consuming vast quantities of oil to ship all these raw materials to then be assembled in massive factories with poorly paid workers, using terrible chemicals that can poison the workers and harm their babies… The reality is almost all of modern technology, materials, tools, and life have huge externalities. Us being alive consuming resources and emitting green house gases further pushes us towards terrible climate changes, while taking away space from nature before us. It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car ownership but maintain the benefits of all other externalities. Perhaps the OP also has many other resists to modern life under ethical guise. The computer is the one known exception here.
  - Jonnax 6y ago
    It isn't a gotcha to say they own a computer. Making a choice not to buy a car makes a measurable impact. It's not a gotcha to say that they partake in society. By your logic, it'd be arbitrary to safely dispose of motor oil instead of conveniently dumping it into the local park's pond.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    >It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car ownership but maintain the benefits of all other externalities. Yes, it's incredibly arbitrary because cars don't suffer from low density development patterns. They don't cause pollution. They also don't cost a significant amount of money and this also doesn't force less well off people to get expensive leases because everyone buys low end cars. The tax burden of suburbia is absolutely insignificant. The fact that you have more roads per resident decreases the tax burden significantly. Their only fatal flaw is that new developments aren't funded by the federal government and private developers. Thanks to cars and suburbia municipalities are swimming in cash and never have to worry about their finances. We should ban bicycles and pedestrian paths. Everyone should drive, even children. This is the future.
  - bildung 6y ago
    > It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car ownership but maintain the benefits of all other externalities. It stops feeling like that once you replace assumptions with numbers.
imtringued 6y ago
He also has the audacity to exist, how dare he live! Let's throw stones at him for consuming any form of resource!, no matter how insignificant!
teddyh 6y ago
“Yet you participate in society! Curious.” — Mister Gotcha (https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/)
- tshaddox 6y ago
  Pretty appropriate response to “cars are unethical” as well. For a huge number of people, especially in the United States, not having a car makes it essentially impossible to have a job.
  - mpol 6y ago
    “cars are unethical” That was not what he said. He was quite clear in making a personal decision. There was no force on anyone to make that same decision. That you are reading that into it might say more about the way you think :)
    - tshaddox 6y ago
      On the topic of reading too much into things, note that I didn’t say anything about force or it not being a personal decision either.

brabel 6y ago

Also, making a new car, even an electric one, takes a huge amount of resources. "Producing a medium-sized new car costing £24,000 may generate more than 17 tonnes of CO2e – almost as much as three years' worth of gas and electricity in the typical UK home."[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
Electric cars are even worse: they typically don't achieve carbon parity with same-class ICE until about 70,000km. This was discussed recently here on HN, I'll try to find the conversation. Edit: here's the conversation, with link to source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24716921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24716921 It's about 50,000 to 112,00km depending on the source of electricity used to charge the electric car.
- SECProto 6y ago
  You say "even worse", I say "much better". Reaching carbon parity means any car driven more than that creates less carbon emissions. People I know run their cars until 300,000km and our power is >90% nuclear and hydro.
- house9-2 6y ago
  This is a pretty good article on ICE vs EV https://www.motorbiscuit.com/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-than-gas-cars/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the... > ... compared to most gasoline-powered cars, an electric car should become carbon neutral in less than 3 years of driving.
  - midasuni 6y ago
    Us average car mileage for new cars is on the order of 15-20,000 a year. So 3 years would be 80,000km which checks out.
- aoeusnth1 6y ago