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It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

lurkmurk 6y ago
But all of those are still true. I would argue that public transport should replace cars for commute which is most of the "non-niche" usage. Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms? Sounds familiar.
- FullyFunctional 6y ago
  They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all fairly expensive. The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.
  - lurkmurk 6y ago
    It's better but not great. Not everyone can afford tesla. Western goverments and big companies are to blame for lack of incentives and infrastructure. People buy what makes the most sense, and petrol is better for many people. This can be changed. I think that everyone would instantly switch to EV if it had the same properties but had a battery instead of a tank. They are faster, silent, cleaner, but it's up to leaders to bridge the gap making them economically viable.
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      I've assumed its just a problem of demand for batteries exceeding supply. If a manufacturer can only make a small number of cars because they are restricted by battery supply then they are going to mark up the price to maximise their profit. As more battery supply becomes available the prices should fall.
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    > The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there. Prices are heading in the wrong direction at the moment: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-model-y-prices-increase/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-mod...
dvh 6y ago
Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km range.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  You tried it yourself ? (just curious)
  - dvh 6y ago
    They don't sell it in my country :( Traditional car manufacturers simply don't want our money. It needs new companies like Tesla to actually make and sell the damn product.
    - canadianfella 6y ago
      Don’t want our money? What are you talking about?
donjoe 6y ago
Consider living in the early 2000s and replace 'digital camera' vs 'analog camera' with 'dinosaur burning vehicles' vs 'electric vehicles'. Same discussion, different technology. We all know how it ended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
amelius 6y ago
Exhaust pipe should end in the cabin. Then people will stop their excuses.
ianai 6y ago
Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other. Range does matter.
- mattlondon 6y ago
  250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas, Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g. ID.3 does over 500miles per hour charging, so just 5mins while you go take a piss is another 40 miles range added) https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~asc|availability-checkbox-dropdown:pathGroup=.current~.not-current|range-slider-range:prev~next=250~600|range-slider-bijtelling:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1100|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...
  - cujo 6y ago
    The catch is when it's cold out. I'm in a similar situation. ~120 miles one way. My Nissan Leaf gets ~140 miles per charge, and it works fine in the spring/summer/fall. In the winter I get about 90 miles on full charge, so not only am I stopping to charge, but I have to be at full charge when I leave. Also consider that the only fast charging station on my route is right around 30 miles in, and I'm running "on fumes" every trip. I know there are cars with bigger batteries that will make it. But I also know they are another ~$10k, which is a significant upcharge.
    - ianai 6y ago
      Yes for me the weather requires AC for most of the year in addition to significant periods of cold weather. There's also the significant lack of charging infrastructure.
zozin 6y ago
Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints. If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially since they're available at artificially lower prices (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV offerings are inferior.
- markvdb 6y ago
  Both electric and ICE cars are being subsidised: - direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric) - oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at [0]. - wind and solar electricity production subsidies. - road infrastructure building and maintenance. - Road and fuel taxes do not cover this. - Usually higher for the same size electric car because heavier. That could change with battery and charging tech improvements though... - ... One could also argue that the following heavyweights should be included: - oil wars. - untaxed negative environmental externalities: - oil spills - CO2 and other harmful gas emissions - car tire particles from both ICE and electric cars ... [0] http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/uploads/ported/images/downloads/Subsidy_Gusher_Oil_and_Gas_Report_05-17-2011_without_link.pdf http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/uploads/ported/images/dow... .
bobajeff 6y ago
They are still to expensive for me. Also, I get all my cars used. Outside of that I'm still concerned about the carge time. If I drive out of town to visit my folks and I'm low on gas I can just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge? That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to the price coming down.
- em-bee 6y ago
  for an 8 hour trip you might budget an hour lunchbreak anyways. so an hour full recharge time is manageable. if you are almost there already, you won't need a full charge to make it.
Hypx 6y ago
The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around. Nearly all of the criticism of this argument are just a mirror of the arguments against EVs (often made by pro-EV people no less). So the real misunderstanding isn't with anti-EV people, but with pro-EV denying that there's a future beyond EVs.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around. Fuel cell cars are EVs.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    Yes, but people get confused. Hence why EVs should be referred to as BEVs, and fuel cell cars as FCEVs.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  I think fuel cells window of opportunity is closing fast and they have no traction despite a lot of investment. EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also going away due to mass manufacturing improvements. Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an external outlet. Compare with the infrastructure needed for the 'hydrogen economy'. Every bit of it needs to be designed and built from scratch. Countries have built stuff like that but it takes decades. We don't have decades.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    You can't build a "lead" as if this was a race. For one thing, there's no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from having their own technology revolution and a S-curve like adoption curve that displaces everything else. This could happen ever after EVs "win" over internal combustion so to speak. It's fully possible that EVs are still on-track to being replaced no matter what happens next. The other thing is that we still have to pay attention to fundamental limitations. There are hard limits to battery energy density that likely to never be crossed. Extremely fast-charging will probably always be limited by its high power power draw. Meanwhile, fuel cell technology is advancing extremely quickly in its own right. We could be seeing fuel cell cars that cost as much as a Corolla[1], and cost only $1.5/kg[2] to refuel (or about 2-3¢ per mile). In a world were fuel cell cars cost <$20k and are cheaper to run than EVs, while also delivering 400 miles of range and 5-minute refueling times, EVs quickly lose much of their luster. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydrogen-boss-explains-how-fuel-cells-can-achieve-corolla-costs https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydroge... [2] https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-hydrogen-production-for-usd-15kg-by-2025-728693/ https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-hydrogen-...
0xbadcafebee 6y ago
Ironic that they were "refueling" electric trucks 100 years ago in 5 minutes. They just drove into a service bay and replaced the battery. We could make new gas stations rent batteries. Pay a subscription fee and you can drive around with a BP battery and exchange it at any BP. 5 minutes work and a tidy sum to avoid long charging times.
swiley 6y ago
Where I live I'm pretty sure all the electrical power comes from natural gas turbines. So EVs pollute just like regular cars. There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.
- rini17 6y ago
  Do they indeed? The turbines usually have much better exhaust filtration and have higher efficiency than oil refinery+ICE.

lurkmurk 6y ago

But all of those are still true. I would argue that public transport should replace cars for commute which is most of the "non-niche" usage. Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms? Sounds familiar.

FullyFunctional 6y ago
They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all fairly expensive. The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.
- lurkmurk 6y ago
  It's better but not great. Not everyone can afford tesla. Western goverments and big companies are to blame for lack of incentives and infrastructure. People buy what makes the most sense, and petrol is better for many people. This can be changed. I think that everyone would instantly switch to EV if it had the same properties but had a battery instead of a tank. They are faster, silent, cleaner, but it's up to leaders to bridge the gap making them economically viable.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I've assumed its just a problem of demand for batteries exceeding supply. If a manufacturer can only make a small number of cars because they are restricted by battery supply then they are going to mark up the price to maximise their profit. As more battery supply becomes available the prices should fall.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there. Prices are heading in the wrong direction at the moment: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-model-y-prices-increase/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-mod...

dvh 6y ago

Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km range.

agumonkey 6y ago
You tried it yourself ? (just curious)
- dvh 6y ago
  They don't sell it in my country :( Traditional car manufacturers simply don't want our money. It needs new companies like Tesla to actually make and sell the damn product.
  - canadianfella 6y ago
    Don’t want our money? What are you talking about?

donjoe 6y ago

Consider living in the early 2000s and replace 'digital camera' vs 'analog camera' with 'dinosaur burning vehicles' vs 'electric vehicles'. Same discussion, different technology. We all know how it ended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

amelius 6y ago

Exhaust pipe should end in the cabin. Then people will stop their excuses.

ianai 6y ago

Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other. Range does matter.

mattlondon 6y ago
250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas, Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g. ID.3 does over 500miles per hour charging, so just 5mins while you go take a piss is another 40 miles range added) https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~asc|availability-checkbox-dropdown:pathGroup=.current~.not-current|range-slider-range:prev~next=250~600|range-slider-bijtelling:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1100|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...
- cujo 6y ago
  The catch is when it's cold out. I'm in a similar situation. ~120 miles one way. My Nissan Leaf gets ~140 miles per charge, and it works fine in the spring/summer/fall. In the winter I get about 90 miles on full charge, so not only am I stopping to charge, but I have to be at full charge when I leave. Also consider that the only fast charging station on my route is right around 30 miles in, and I'm running "on fumes" every trip. I know there are cars with bigger batteries that will make it. But I also know they are another ~$10k, which is a significant upcharge.
  - ianai 6y ago
    Yes for me the weather requires AC for most of the year in addition to significant periods of cold weather. There's also the significant lack of charging infrastructure.

zozin 6y ago

Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints. If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially since they're available at artificially lower prices (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV offerings are inferior.

markvdb 6y ago
Both electric and ICE cars are being subsidised: - direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric) - oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at [0]. - wind and solar electricity production subsidies. - road infrastructure building and maintenance. - Road and fuel taxes do not cover this. - Usually higher for the same size electric car because heavier. That could change with battery and charging tech improvements though... - ... One could also argue that the following heavyweights should be included: - oil wars. - untaxed negative environmental externalities: - oil spills - CO2 and other harmful gas emissions - car tire particles from both ICE and electric cars ... [0] http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/uploads/ported/images/downloads/Subsidy_Gusher_Oil_and_Gas_Report_05-17-2011_without_link.pdf http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/uploads/ported/images/dow... .

bobajeff 6y ago

They are still to expensive for me. Also, I get all my cars used. Outside of that I'm still concerned about the carge time. If I drive out of town to visit my folks and I'm low on gas I can just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge? That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to the price coming down.

em-bee 6y ago
for an 8 hour trip you might budget an hour lunchbreak anyways. so an hour full recharge time is manageable. if you are almost there already, you won't need a full charge to make it.

Hypx 6y ago

The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around. Nearly all of the criticism of this argument are just a mirror of the arguments against EVs (often made by pro-EV people no less). So the real misunderstanding isn't with anti-EV people, but with pro-EV denying that there's a future beyond EVs.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around. Fuel cell cars are EVs.
- Hypx 6y ago
  Yes, but people get confused. Hence why EVs should be referred to as BEVs, and fuel cell cars as FCEVs.
Gibbon1 6y ago
I think fuel cells window of opportunity is closing fast and they have no traction despite a lot of investment. EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also going away due to mass manufacturing improvements. Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an external outlet. Compare with the infrastructure needed for the 'hydrogen economy'. Every bit of it needs to be designed and built from scratch. Countries have built stuff like that but it takes decades. We don't have decades.
- Hypx 6y ago
  You can't build a "lead" as if this was a race. For one thing, there's no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from having their own technology revolution and a S-curve like adoption curve that displaces everything else. This could happen ever after EVs "win" over internal combustion so to speak. It's fully possible that EVs are still on-track to being replaced no matter what happens next. The other thing is that we still have to pay attention to fundamental limitations. There are hard limits to battery energy density that likely to never be crossed. Extremely fast-charging will probably always be limited by its high power power draw. Meanwhile, fuel cell technology is advancing extremely quickly in its own right. We could be seeing fuel cell cars that cost as much as a Corolla[1], and cost only $1.5/kg[2] to refuel (or about 2-3¢ per mile). In a world were fuel cell cars cost <$20k and are cheaper to run than EVs, while also delivering 400 miles of range and 5-minute refueling times, EVs quickly lose much of their luster. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydrogen-boss-explains-how-fuel-cells-can-achieve-corolla-costs https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydroge... [2] https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-hydrogen-production-for-usd-15kg-by-2025-728693/ https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-hydrogen-...

0xbadcafebee 6y ago

Ironic that they were "refueling" electric trucks 100 years ago in 5 minutes. They just drove into a service bay and replaced the battery. We could make new gas stations rent batteries. Pay a subscription fee and you can drive around with a BP battery and exchange it at any BP. 5 minutes work and a tidy sum to avoid long charging times.

swiley 6y ago

Where I live I'm pretty sure all the electrical power comes from natural gas turbines. So EVs pollute just like regular cars. There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.

rini17 6y ago
Do they indeed? The turbines usually have much better exhaust filtration and have higher efficiency than oil refinery+ICE.