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CA crews handle tricky fire at Tesla factory
- joering2 6y agoProps to Fire Dept. for having some decent response code enforcement - I mean you would never put off a molten metal; it would burn forever, and while you add water to it, it would only expand. AFAIK the only way to put it off is with sand.
- quickthrowman 6y ago> I mean you would never put off a molten metal; it would burn forever I doubt that, if it burned forever you could use it to heat water and spin a turbine and produce free power. If you meant “forever” as “a long time”, then sure :P It would eventually cool down after removing the source of heat keeping the metal molten, which are electric resistive heating elements (assuming it works like an aluminum smelter).
- dmlittle 6y agoIt would burn until all the metal has reacted. I think the point is that due to its chemical properties what you're using to try to "extinguish" the fire is actually fueling the reaction so not forever but you're certainly not helping.
- quickthrowman 6y agoOh, absolutely. Water would exacerbate things (as you said in your sibling comment), I was just being a smartass about the word “forever” :P
- dmlittle 6y agoI was curious as to the reason why water or CO2 can't be used to put off a metal fire. The TL;DR is that with a metal fire the high temperatures cause the H2O and CO2 molecules to be unstable enough that the metal can attract the oxygen molecules to fuel the ongoing fire rendering them useless as a fire suppressors. H2O is even worse as once the oxygen is split from the water molecule you are left with hydrogen which will combust and explosion might cause the molten fire to spread further. This doesn't happen with wood burning as the attraction to the oxygen molecules from the carbon being burnt is the same or stronger than the attraction from the CO2 or H2O molecules.
- moistbar 6y agoDo you think pure nitrogen would work in this situation?
- scythe 6y agoYou'd need tons. It's plausible but I don't think it's practical. Also, magnesium and titanium can burn in pure nitrogen, so it's not a panacea.
- pmiller2 6y agoProbably not. Nitrogen is roughly the same density as air. It would just get dispersed into the atmosphere before it could do much, unless you had insane amounts of it.
- jseutter 6y agoNitrogen wouldn't work in this situation. In fact nitrogen and aluminum will burn, forming AlN. Normally this doesn't happen because of Aluminum readily forms a "rust" layer in the presence of oxygen, and there isn't enough heat. Molten aluminum in a pure nitrogen environment wouldn't have that layer, and there likely would be enough heat.
- rtrdea 6y agoWhy are you guys saying put off
- tshaddox 6y agoOut of curiosity, what would happen if you quickly submerged the burning metal into a very large body of water?
- dmix 6y agoFire on the metal increases then ‘explosion’ the size of which depends on the metal type and quantity obviously https://youtu.be/tj7S_DNFgEU https://youtu.be/tj7S_DNFgEU Also alkali metals is fun https://youtu.be/I8tOtZKpi04 https://youtu.be/I8tOtZKpi04
- __turbobrew__ 6y agoClass D fire extinguishers can be used to put out metal fires. They are expensive however and not all fire departments have access to them. Class D fire extinguishers are used at air bases in my country to put out plane fires since our fighter jets are made out of a magnesium alloy which can burn.
- glsdfgkjsklfj 6y agoCan't wait for Elon's tweets praising CA public service.
- donarb 6y agoWhat's suspect is why were they building cars in a building that was still under construction?
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- coolspot 6y ago«Move fast and break things»?
- dragontamer 6y agoIt seems like the die-stamping machine is outside actually. https://electrek.co/2020/09/09/tesla-deploying-second-giga-press-machine-fremont-factory/ https://electrek.co/2020/09/09/tesla-deploying-second-giga-p... I don't think the die-casting machine is "under construction". It seems like they intend to leave it out there. I remember seeing some news when it was operational a few weeks ago.
- judge2020 6y agoSome footage of it in action on Jan 21: https://youtu.be/BwoiFC-HwPE?t=307 https://youtu.be/BwoiFC-HwPE?t=307 Feb 8: https://youtu.be/hF_oRMIY9tk?t=363 https://youtu.be/hF_oRMIY9tk?t=363
- monksy 6y agoWould the Texas FD be prepared for this in the area of their new plant?
- jdavis703 6y agoMy understanding from talking with firefighters is large industrial plants, major apartment complexes etc give the local fire department tours and discuss special circumstances of their building.
- convolvatron 6y agoeven tiny little light industrial shops have an ongoing conversation and yearly inspection with the fire department about doors, locks, stairs, extinguishers, chemicals, flammables, aisles, accessibility, sprinkler coverage, signage, bottled gas storage, electrical, etc. etc. as a solo operator its a huge pita. I do appreciate that these people are putting their lives at risk, so I suck it up (don't have much of a choice actually)
- leetrout 6y agoThis is correct. Departments will develop “pre-plans” for any large buildings, industrial buildings, etc.
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- BayAreaEscapee 6y agoThis reminds me of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor meltdown. They put out the fire by dumping boron and sand on the core from helicopters. https://www.livescience.com/65515-chernobyl-in-modern-times-nuclear-emergency.html https://www.livescience.com/65515-chernobyl-in-modern-times-...
- mindcrime 6y agoHandling flammable metals fires by burying the fire load in sand is not uncommon. As other people have mentioned, there are special extinguishing agents out there that handle flammable metals (Class D) fires, but they're expensive, and not all fire departments have them. And many departments that don't specialize in industrial response may have a Class D extinguisher or two, but nowhere near enough extinguishing agent to handle a large fire. OTOH, large industrial plants often have their on on-site fire brigades that have specialized equipment and training specifically around the unique hazards found at their facilities. Not sure what the situation was here at the Tesla plant. But I can say that if my old volunteer department in a mostly rural part of NC had ever encountered a large flammable metals fire (the most likely scenario would probably have involved something in transport, and a motor vehicle collision), we would almost certainly have started requesting dump truck loads of sand, and a front-end loader.
- mauvehaus 6y agoThis sounds like the perfect opportunity for a Derek Lowe link to Sand Won't Save You This Time: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sa... Be warned: the "Things I Won't Work With" category is entertaining and can easily take up an evening of your time.
- shagie 6y ago> Be warned: the "Things I Won't Work With" category is entertaining and can easily take up an evening of your time. Don't forget the "Things I’m Glad I Don’t Do" category with such gems as "There’s Toxicity, And There’s Toxicity." Not as many posts as "Things I Won't Work With", but enough amusement for few good reads.
- amelius 6y agoNow imagine a parking garage full of EVs, where one catches fire. Battery fires are notoriously difficult to extinguish.
- judge2020 6y agoAre you saying ICE cars aren't at risk of incidental fire from other [burning] cars, what with their 10+ gallon gasoline tanks?
- mindcrime 6y agoAre you saying ICE cars aren't at risk of incidental fire from other [burning] cars, what with their 10+ gallon gasoline tanks? They definitely are (source: former firefighter here), but a deck full of Teslas's is more of a problem for the FD in some regards, than a corresponding deck full of ICE cars. The reason being, Teslas are known to be hard to extinguish when they burn, and are apparently prone to rekindles. I don't remember the exact number, but I seem to recall hearing that Tesla recommend flowing water on a burning Tesla for somewhere around 10 hours in order to cool it sufficiently to avoid a rekindle. An average car fire (depending on certain details) can be taken care of in somewhere around an hour, from start to finish. So a bunch of Teslas on fire would require more resources committed for more time, which would possibly impinge on the ability of the FD to handle other calls. Edit: here's the Tesla Emergency Response Guide[1]. According to the "Firefighting" section: Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish. Consider allowing the battery to burn while protecting exposures. [1]: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...
- userbinator 6y agoGasoline and diesel (which is harder to ignite) need a source of ignition to start burning, whereas a lithium ion battery can supply its own. The latter being a solid also means heat can build up deep inside a damaged battery pack enough to cause reignition.
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- olivermarks 6y agoWondering why Tesla doesn't have fire suppression solutions in place ready for this type of danger. Surely major Class D fire suppression would be a prerequisite for this type of process? https://www.elitefire.co.uk/help-advice/detect-and-extinguish-class-d-fires/ https://www.elitefire.co.uk/help-advice/detect-and-extinguis...
- xxpor 6y agoIt wasn't the metal that caught fire, it was the hydraulic fluid. You still wouldn't want to use water on that though. Everyone down thread is commenting like the aluminum caught fire. That's not what the article says: "A piece of machinery containing molten metal caught fire" It's really hard to get aluminum hot enough to combust if it's in a big blob. Powder on the other hand...
- olivermarks 6y agoHydraulic fluid under pressure is a class B fire than can very quickly escalate. Sand bags aren't going to be doing much in those situations https://youtu.be/aj8-JlRqoWc https://youtu.be/aj8-JlRqoWc If you have molten metals class D powder suppression is needed. I'm amazed the old NUMI plant doesn't have both ready for action.
- xxpor 6y agoAgreed. Class D extinguishers are expensive, but we're talking ~$500 instead of ~$50 for an ABC (obviously depends on size). Both costs are trivial for any manufacturing company, and frankly I'd be shocked if they both weren't required by code. The only thing that I can think of is perhaps no one noticed until it was too late? And then the employees didn't want to touch it until the fire department showed up. If there was a hydraulic leak, they used the sand bags to stop the spread of the fluid, and then used foam to actually put out the fire? No clue.
- userbinator 6y agoIncidentally, this is why a lot of planes use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydrol instead of regular mineral-oil-based hydraulic fluid, despite the former being far more irritating for human handling.
- ChuckMcM 6y agoI'm wondering what process uses molten metal. Or if it was another process that ended up creating molten metal (like a battery fire of some sort). Given the hydraulic fluid mention I was also speculating that a gigapress might be involved. Like everyone commenting I am always amazed at exothermic events that can't be put out by water or CO2. The only one I've ever seen "in person" (other than the obligatory set some magnesium on fire in chemistry) was a halon dump on an IBM System 370 when the water coolant system burst a pipe and shorted the many bus bars. That one triggered a 15 second siren followed by a halon dump. I found it quite exciting, the plant manager, not so much.
- dayyan 6y agoGiga press.
- shagie 6y ago> That one triggered a 15 second siren followed by a halon dump. I found it quite exciting, the plant manager, not so much. I am reminded of The Vax War - https://www.hactrn.net/sra/vaxen.html https://www.hactrn.net/sra/vaxen.html Some may recall its opening (and closing) line: > VAXen, my children, just don't belong some places. The story involves a VAX 750, and an IBM 3090. The passage that will get you to start shaking you head is: > The fire alarm klaxon went off and the siren warning of imminent halon gas release was screaming. We started to panic but the data center manager shouted over the din, ``Don't worry, the halon system failed its acceptance test last week. It's disabled and nothing will happen.''
- spoonjim 6y agoDo companies that do dangerous stuff need to pay additional taxes for fire protection?
- Element_ 6y agoIt depends, the larger petrochemical plants actually have their own fire departments with specialized equipment and training.