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"we can spy, but you can't" --"1st world" western powers There must be a more modern term than "1st world", I just don't know it.

matheusmoreira 6y ago
FVEY. The Five Eyes. Five English-speaking countries that share military strength and intelligence. Somehow the world simply tolerates all the blatant espionage they perpetrate with zero diplomatic repercussions. The USA alone probably has more espionage satellites in space than every other nation combined.
- jsty 6y ago
  > Somehow the world simply tolerates all the blatant espionage they perpetrate with zero diplomatic repercussions Because pretty much every other country with a security service is either pursuing similar operations or wants to be. Sure when something becomes public a fuss gets made, but oddly enough no concrete repercussions ever follow.
- xxpor 6y ago
  Because other European countries know they're screwed without the US's backing. In return, those countries don't have to spend nearly as much on defense as they would otherwise. You can see why this would be politically advantageous for the Europeans. Outside of that, who could do anything diplomatically to the US that wouldn't just be laughed off?
  - modo_mario 6y ago
    You do realize the EU has a mutual protection clause similar to Nato. Russia can't exactly invade. It's economy is smaller than Italy's. I don't think the EU depends as much on US defence as some Americans would have one believe.
    - colinmhayes 6y ago
      Russia already invaded Ukraine.
      - lolinder 6y ago
        Ukraine isn't in the EU, so that doesn't actually prove anything about the EU's ability to defend itself.
      - lucian1900 6y ago
        After the Ukrainian state was taken over by fascists in 2014 and started threatening ethnic Russians and Jews in the Donbass, a local referendum was held on whether to ask for help from the Russian Federation. After it was won, the help was provided. Like most history, it's a bit more complicated than it first appears.
        modo_mario 6y ago
        It wasn't taken over by fascists and didn't start "threatening ethnic Russians and jews in Donbass" get that imperialist propaganda bs out of here. It let some fascist boneheads put themselves forwards as canonfodder when it was invaded which Russia loves to focus on but I can hardly blame them for that.
      - modo_mario 6y ago
        Ukraine isn't in EU. It was aligned more with Russia until they revolted.
- downrightmike 6y ago
  USA learned it's lesson after being isolationist leading up to mass genocide and world wars. A league of nations didn't work, so things evolved into the USA being the guard dog for the world.
dylan604 6y ago
You can spy too any time you want, right after you develop a launch platform. Until then, you develop anything you want to deploy to space, but if the launch agency you've contract with changes their mind, well, you've got a nice shiny museum exhibit.
- naringas 6y ago
  so... might makes right?
  - xeromal 6y ago
    Isn't that how the human race works? Big monke stronger than little monke
  - adventured 6y ago
    Since we're dealing with geopolitics, genocide, conflict, etc. - what does right have to do with anything? Other than being an entirely hopeless ideal that is discarded immediately in conflict between nations or peoples. Might dictating outcomes has always been a fact of life. Why would anyone attempt to deny that aspect of living in reality? What good does it do to pretend reality isn't what it is? Might determining outcomes between nations will never stop being true. Everything else - the UN for example - is merely a very small (often laughable) influence, and at best reduces the brunt of the might factor. Pick a major country at any point in history. Might is huge part of their equation and there are no exceptions. The US and China can freely ignore the world, freely ignore the UN, freely ignore all rules, international laws, anything they want to. That's because there is nobody that can do anything about it. That fact of how things actually work merely lessens as you scale downward with nations (as the nation in question gets weaker), it never goes away. Weak countries can pick on weak opponents, see: Armenia vs Azerbaijan. Might always ultimately determines the world, including in defeating Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan in WW2. The strongest nations even have the most influence at the UN, so even soft politics is always backed by might.
  - samus 6y ago
    Nobody is forbidding Myanmar to launch their own satellite. After all, the Chinese and the North Koreans pretty much do whatever they want up there as well. But if you cooperate with others to put something up there, it would be very unusual if you wouldn't have to compromise. This includes limits on what purposes the equipment can be used for. Actually, according to TA, it seems Myanmar's government hasn't quite decided what to do with the thing. It's probably quite low right now on their list of priorities. And the Japanese still have to consider whether to toss it out or not. After all, the thing is up there already (sunk cost fallacy and all that). It seems possible they can work something out.
samus 6y ago
Why is any 1st world government supposed to help other governments spying? If Myanmar want a spy satellite up there, they should do it themselves. Or ask the Chinese. Can't imagine they wouldn't be interested in a launch platform closer to the equator...
simonh 6y ago
Having a military advantage confers no moral obligation to share it.
Rule35 6y ago
Um yeah, I've got a gun and I'm not shooting you, but you - who have expressed displeasure with me - cannot get a gun because I believe you will shoot me. Harm to you: Not having a gun. Harm to me: death. Smart money is on maintaining a gap. How do you feel we should update '1st' world? Change '2nd' to refer to allies and vassals of China instead of Russia? Add '4th world' to indicate some other relation other than allies/enemies/unrelated?

matheusmoreira 6y ago

FVEY. The Five Eyes. Five English-speaking countries that share military strength and intelligence. Somehow the world simply tolerates all the blatant espionage they perpetrate with zero diplomatic repercussions. The USA alone probably has more espionage satellites in space than every other nation combined.

jsty 6y ago
> Somehow the world simply tolerates all the blatant espionage they perpetrate with zero diplomatic repercussions Because pretty much every other country with a security service is either pursuing similar operations or wants to be. Sure when something becomes public a fuss gets made, but oddly enough no concrete repercussions ever follow.
xxpor 6y ago
Because other European countries know they're screwed without the US's backing. In return, those countries don't have to spend nearly as much on defense as they would otherwise. You can see why this would be politically advantageous for the Europeans. Outside of that, who could do anything diplomatically to the US that wouldn't just be laughed off?
- modo_mario 6y ago
  You do realize the EU has a mutual protection clause similar to Nato. Russia can't exactly invade. It's economy is smaller than Italy's. I don't think the EU depends as much on US defence as some Americans would have one believe.
  - colinmhayes 6y ago
    Russia already invaded Ukraine.
    - lolinder 6y ago
      Ukraine isn't in the EU, so that doesn't actually prove anything about the EU's ability to defend itself.
    - lucian1900 6y ago
      After the Ukrainian state was taken over by fascists in 2014 and started threatening ethnic Russians and Jews in the Donbass, a local referendum was held on whether to ask for help from the Russian Federation. After it was won, the help was provided. Like most history, it's a bit more complicated than it first appears.
      - modo_mario 6y ago
        It wasn't taken over by fascists and didn't start "threatening ethnic Russians and jews in Donbass" get that imperialist propaganda bs out of here. It let some fascist boneheads put themselves forwards as canonfodder when it was invaded which Russia loves to focus on but I can hardly blame them for that.
    - modo_mario 6y ago
      Ukraine isn't in EU. It was aligned more with Russia until they revolted.
downrightmike 6y ago
USA learned it's lesson after being isolationist leading up to mass genocide and world wars. A league of nations didn't work, so things evolved into the USA being the guard dog for the world.

dylan604 6y ago

You can spy too any time you want, right after you develop a launch platform. Until then, you develop anything you want to deploy to space, but if the launch agency you've contract with changes their mind, well, you've got a nice shiny museum exhibit.

naringas 6y ago
so... might makes right?
- xeromal 6y ago
  Isn't that how the human race works? Big monke stronger than little monke
- adventured 6y ago
  Since we're dealing with geopolitics, genocide, conflict, etc. - what does right have to do with anything? Other than being an entirely hopeless ideal that is discarded immediately in conflict between nations or peoples. Might dictating outcomes has always been a fact of life. Why would anyone attempt to deny that aspect of living in reality? What good does it do to pretend reality isn't what it is? Might determining outcomes between nations will never stop being true. Everything else - the UN for example - is merely a very small (often laughable) influence, and at best reduces the brunt of the might factor. Pick a major country at any point in history. Might is huge part of their equation and there are no exceptions. The US and China can freely ignore the world, freely ignore the UN, freely ignore all rules, international laws, anything they want to. That's because there is nobody that can do anything about it. That fact of how things actually work merely lessens as you scale downward with nations (as the nation in question gets weaker), it never goes away. Weak countries can pick on weak opponents, see: Armenia vs Azerbaijan. Might always ultimately determines the world, including in defeating Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan in WW2. The strongest nations even have the most influence at the UN, so even soft politics is always backed by might.
- samus 6y ago
  Nobody is forbidding Myanmar to launch their own satellite. After all, the Chinese and the North Koreans pretty much do whatever they want up there as well. But if you cooperate with others to put something up there, it would be very unusual if you wouldn't have to compromise. This includes limits on what purposes the equipment can be used for. Actually, according to TA, it seems Myanmar's government hasn't quite decided what to do with the thing. It's probably quite low right now on their list of priorities. And the Japanese still have to consider whether to toss it out or not. After all, the thing is up there already (sunk cost fallacy and all that). It seems possible they can work something out.

samus 6y ago

Why is any 1st world government supposed to help other governments spying? If Myanmar want a spy satellite up there, they should do it themselves. Or ask the Chinese. Can't imagine they wouldn't be interested in a launch platform closer to the equator...

simonh 6y ago

Having a military advantage confers no moral obligation to share it.

Rule35 6y ago

Um yeah, I've got a gun and I'm not shooting you, but you - who have expressed displeasure with me - cannot get a gun because I believe you will shoot me. Harm to you: Not having a gun. Harm to me: death. Smart money is on maintaining a gap. How do you feel we should update '1st' world? Change '2nd' to refer to allies and vassals of China instead of Russia? Add '4th world' to indicate some other relation other than allies/enemies/unrelated?