6 ms·

Can anyone name a time in history where the people censoring things turned out to be the "Good Guys"?

by Alupis 6y ago

Banyonite 6y ago
Honestly cannot- doesn't mean there isn't one, but this leads to a possible heuristic worth exploring.
Pyramus 6y ago
Your argument/trope fails for a simple reasons: "They" don't exist. * Here on HN we censor each other. * The US censors basic nudity. * Germany censors denying the Holocaust. * The patent office censors inventions. * Scientists have devised a peer-censorship system. * The police censors your attempts to distribute illegal material. * Banks censor your funds to ISIS. ... the list goes on and on and on.
- wnoise 6y ago
  Almost half of those are indeed bad guys, and much of the rest does not fit under the normal meaning of the word censorship.
Jeema101 6y ago
Yes. 1945 post-war Germany saw mass-censoring as part of the Allied de-Nazification program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification "the US Army continued its efforts to denazify Germany through control of German media. The Information Control Division of the US Army had by July 1946 taken control of 37 German newspapers, six radio stations, 314 theaters, 642 cinemas, 101 magazines, 237 book publishers, and 7,384 book dealers and printers."
- Alupis 6y ago
  Propaganda isn't the same as censorship. It does not appear any of the Allies made it illegal to believe in Nazism, or to write about it, or even dare to own something from the Nazi era. Nonetheless, it's arguable these efforts were futile, likely misguided, and likely drove some to extremism as a result. You cannot simply compel a population to think a certain way. Instead, you must allow the "bad" ideas to be exposed in the public forum, and win over the population through logical arguments. Hiding them away does nothing to disappear them. Regardless, it's pretty well established the average German citizen didn't believe in the extremes the Nazi party had gone to anyway.
  - notahacker 6y ago
    Oh, but the Allies did make Naziism illegal (the Soviets of course went further and made most other political speech illegal in their half of Germany) Not only did West Germany have denazification programmes, but things like denying the holocaust are still illegal in Germany today, as the article discusses. It's a bold claim to argue this was "futile" or "likely drove some to extremism" when the context was a reaction to the last war so extreme that it resulted in mass public support for a guy who blamed the Jews and geared up for a second war. Failing to defeat those arguments with logic drove an entire country to extremism, and there were a lot more people who still believed in those extremes in 1946 (even after suffering for them) than express sympathy for Germany's much watered down far right today. I doubt that would radically alter if they relaxed holocaust denial laws today, but there was certainly a time when public debate about whether the Holocaust was real or a big lie would have been useful to anyone wanting to follow in Hitler's footsteps and cast Germany as the victim. Of course, on the other side the GDR absolutely failed in its attempts to force people to love its state and not realise their friends and family in the West were richer and free-er than them. There were limits to the effectiveness of censorship in achieving those goals, even when the censorship itself was almost unparalleled in its pervasiveness and harshness. But sometimes not facilitating the discussion terrible niche ideas is much more effective at preventing them from going mainstream than debating them
    - Alupis 6y ago
      > Oh, but the Allies did make Naziism illegal You can be a Nazi in the US, UK and I'm sure pretty much anywhere in the world (except Germany) - and not go to jail, etc. So no, the Allies did not make Nazism illegal. Instead, they attempted to squash Nazism through propaganda (both domestic and foreign), and through spreading the truth about what Nazism had accomplished (Holocaust, among other atrocities). There's Holocaust Deniers roaming the streets of the US today - although they are in the extreme minority due overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In the end, the evils of Nazism led to it's demise, and the free trade of that information championed over censorship. As an aside, making Holocaust Denial illegal has accomplished nothing - we have Genocide occurring around the world today, including openly in China - the very same country US companies like the NBA and Disney are falling over each other to do business in. China, of course, denies it's a Genocide...
- tomjen3 6y ago
  That of course leave the question, was it that that solved the issue or was it the end of the war, or the exposing of the camps (one might not like the local jew, not trust them in general, but still not want to mass murder them) or something else?
api 6y ago
Censorship of child pornography?
- Alupis 6y ago
  I don't really consider that censorship. We made it illegal to exploit minors that are unable to make decisions for themselves (both legally and maturely). Then, at the arbitrary age of 18, we (the US, other countries differ) decided they can participate in, create, and distribute as much self-pornographic material as they want. The entire LEO world dedicated to combating child pornography revolves around the exploitation of children and how wrong that is. That's not quite the same as banning ideas, books, etc, simply because some find the words objectionable.
- ttt0 6y ago
  It's not a political ideology or political speech. The reason we came up with freedom of speech is primarily so you can criticize the people in power. I know that people for whatever reason got this weird idea that pornography is somehow free speech, presumably because of lobbying, but historically free speech always coexisted with obscenity laws. If you want to silence your political enemy, it's going to be hard to do on the basis of pornography, but it's rather easy to do on a basis of 'hate speech'.
Jarwain 6y ago
Isn't this subject to survivorship bias? If, 1000 years ago some movement was censored by the "good guys", if they've done a half-competent job, would we even Know they tried censoring things in the first place? Not to mention how the "good guys" are usually just whomever manages to last/survive
- Alupis 6y ago
  How about in the last 100 years then? In the 50's-70's, the US tried it's hardest to censor/hide/destroy Marxism, it's ideals, and derivatives (Socialism) - yet it still exists today. You cannot disappear ideas by silencing the individuals that believe them. Instead of trying to hide them away, the ideas need to be exposed publicly and discussed openly. If one side truly is righteous, it will prevail through open discussion and logic. Just like in the 50's - what we have today is a weaponized notion of censorship to destroy our political enemies and those who do not think the same way we do. That's certainly not what "Good Guys" do.
  - Pyramus 6y ago
    > If one side truly is righteous, it will prevail through open discussion and logic. Unfortunately that is not always how it works out. In Germany in the 1930s the idea that Jews/non-Arians have conspired against Germany and should be retaliated against was discussed openly - and accepted. Obviously it was not righteous. In several US states in the 1980s the idea that homo sapiens was created by God and creationism should replace evolution in school textbooks was discussed openly - and accepted. Was it righteous? These are two very different examples, but both ask the same question: What do we do in the case where truly righteous ideas do not prevail?
    - Alupis 6y ago
      The righteous ideals prevailed in the end, in both examples you provided - no? Nobody pretends Nazism never happened - that would be Censorship. Instead, you can buy, find, read about Nazism - including Mein Kumpf and more. Creationism is not a dominating idea in the US either - nobody censored Creationism (even to this day you can find private schools that teach it!). Instead, Creationism was defeated by questioning it's teachings, and exposing it's logical flaws. I do believe you have very eloquently proven my point. Censorship never works.

Can anyone name a time in history where the people censoring things turned out to be the "Good Guys"?

by Alupis 6y ago

Can anyone name a time in history where the people censoring things turned out to be the "Good Guys"?

Banyonite 6y ago

Honestly cannot- doesn't mean there isn't one, but this leads to a possible heuristic worth exploring.

Pyramus 6y ago

Your argument/trope fails for a simple reasons: "They" don't exist. * Here on HN we censor each other. * The US censors basic nudity. * Germany censors denying the Holocaust. * The patent office censors inventions. * Scientists have devised a peer-censorship system. * The police censors your attempts to distribute illegal material. * Banks censor your funds to ISIS. ... the list goes on and on and on.

wnoise 6y ago
Almost half of those are indeed bad guys, and much of the rest does not fit under the normal meaning of the word censorship.

Jeema101 6y ago

Yes. 1945 post-war Germany saw mass-censoring as part of the Allied de-Nazification program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification "the US Army continued its efforts to denazify Germany through control of German media. The Information Control Division of the US Army had by July 1946 taken control of 37 German newspapers, six radio stations, 314 theaters, 642 cinemas, 101 magazines, 237 book publishers, and 7,384 book dealers and printers."

Alupis 6y ago
Propaganda isn't the same as censorship. It does not appear any of the Allies made it illegal to believe in Nazism, or to write about it, or even dare to own something from the Nazi era. Nonetheless, it's arguable these efforts were futile, likely misguided, and likely drove some to extremism as a result. You cannot simply compel a population to think a certain way. Instead, you must allow the "bad" ideas to be exposed in the public forum, and win over the population through logical arguments. Hiding them away does nothing to disappear them. Regardless, it's pretty well established the average German citizen didn't believe in the extremes the Nazi party had gone to anyway.
- notahacker 6y ago
  Oh, but the Allies did make Naziism illegal (the Soviets of course went further and made most other political speech illegal in their half of Germany) Not only did West Germany have denazification programmes, but things like denying the holocaust are still illegal in Germany today, as the article discusses. It's a bold claim to argue this was "futile" or "likely drove some to extremism" when the context was a reaction to the last war so extreme that it resulted in mass public support for a guy who blamed the Jews and geared up for a second war. Failing to defeat those arguments with logic drove an entire country to extremism, and there were a lot more people who still believed in those extremes in 1946 (even after suffering for them) than express sympathy for Germany's much watered down far right today. I doubt that would radically alter if they relaxed holocaust denial laws today, but there was certainly a time when public debate about whether the Holocaust was real or a big lie would have been useful to anyone wanting to follow in Hitler's footsteps and cast Germany as the victim. Of course, on the other side the GDR absolutely failed in its attempts to force people to love its state and not realise their friends and family in the West were richer and free-er than them. There were limits to the effectiveness of censorship in achieving those goals, even when the censorship itself was almost unparalleled in its pervasiveness and harshness. But sometimes not facilitating the discussion terrible niche ideas is much more effective at preventing them from going mainstream than debating them
  - Alupis 6y ago
    > Oh, but the Allies did make Naziism illegal You can be a Nazi in the US, UK and I'm sure pretty much anywhere in the world (except Germany) - and not go to jail, etc. So no, the Allies did not make Nazism illegal. Instead, they attempted to squash Nazism through propaganda (both domestic and foreign), and through spreading the truth about what Nazism had accomplished (Holocaust, among other atrocities). There's Holocaust Deniers roaming the streets of the US today - although they are in the extreme minority due overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In the end, the evils of Nazism led to it's demise, and the free trade of that information championed over censorship. As an aside, making Holocaust Denial illegal has accomplished nothing - we have Genocide occurring around the world today, including openly in China - the very same country US companies like the NBA and Disney are falling over each other to do business in. China, of course, denies it's a Genocide...
tomjen3 6y ago
That of course leave the question, was it that that solved the issue or was it the end of the war, or the exposing of the camps (one might not like the local jew, not trust them in general, but still not want to mass murder them) or something else?

api 6y ago

Censorship of child pornography?

Alupis 6y ago
I don't really consider that censorship. We made it illegal to exploit minors that are unable to make decisions for themselves (both legally and maturely). Then, at the arbitrary age of 18, we (the US, other countries differ) decided they can participate in, create, and distribute as much self-pornographic material as they want. The entire LEO world dedicated to combating child pornography revolves around the exploitation of children and how wrong that is. That's not quite the same as banning ideas, books, etc, simply because some find the words objectionable.
ttt0 6y ago
It's not a political ideology or political speech. The reason we came up with freedom of speech is primarily so you can criticize the people in power. I know that people for whatever reason got this weird idea that pornography is somehow free speech, presumably because of lobbying, but historically free speech always coexisted with obscenity laws. If you want to silence your political enemy, it's going to be hard to do on the basis of pornography, but it's rather easy to do on a basis of 'hate speech'.

Jarwain 6y ago

Isn't this subject to survivorship bias? If, 1000 years ago some movement was censored by the "good guys", if they've done a half-competent job, would we even Know they tried censoring things in the first place? Not to mention how the "good guys" are usually just whomever manages to last/survive

Alupis 6y ago
How about in the last 100 years then? In the 50's-70's, the US tried it's hardest to censor/hide/destroy Marxism, it's ideals, and derivatives (Socialism) - yet it still exists today. You cannot disappear ideas by silencing the individuals that believe them. Instead of trying to hide them away, the ideas need to be exposed publicly and discussed openly. If one side truly is righteous, it will prevail through open discussion and logic. Just like in the 50's - what we have today is a weaponized notion of censorship to destroy our political enemies and those who do not think the same way we do. That's certainly not what "Good Guys" do.
- Pyramus 6y ago
  > If one side truly is righteous, it will prevail through open discussion and logic. Unfortunately that is not always how it works out. In Germany in the 1930s the idea that Jews/non-Arians have conspired against Germany and should be retaliated against was discussed openly - and accepted. Obviously it was not righteous. In several US states in the 1980s the idea that homo sapiens was created by God and creationism should replace evolution in school textbooks was discussed openly - and accepted. Was it righteous? These are two very different examples, but both ask the same question: What do we do in the case where truly righteous ideas do not prevail?
  - Alupis 6y ago
    The righteous ideals prevailed in the end, in both examples you provided - no? Nobody pretends Nazism never happened - that would be Censorship. Instead, you can buy, find, read about Nazism - including Mein Kumpf and more. Creationism is not a dominating idea in the US either - nobody censored Creationism (even to this day you can find private schools that teach it!). Instead, Creationism was defeated by questioning it's teachings, and exposing it's logical flaws. I do believe you have very eloquently proven my point. Censorship never works.