8 ms·

Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I

Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I ejected from that heap. Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. Sunnyvale Costco is like an airport in Burma (okay, Myanmar), not because of race, culture, or ethnicity, but because of the predominant "fuck it" attitude: don't learn the customs, don't speak the language, don't put down roots, and don't interact with locals. There are perfectly nice, Americanized immigrants like a good fraction of the TiE folks but when you bring in a junior software engineer's extended family, you're getting a swath of average people too... and that's like moving a crowd of random Floridian Disneyland-goers in for a temporary extended stay. Also, I noticed how the offspring of the well-to-do from authoritarian countries act like, or even worse than, drunk American college students in the rest of the world. For example, I noticed mainland PRC kids pointing, laughing, harassing, and taking poverty porn pictures of homeless people in Palo Alto.

marcinzm 6y ago
>failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin I mean, have you seen the waiting times for Indian US green cards? You may literally die of old age before getting through the queue right now. The system is structured to make them disposable temporary workers and not future American citizens. So why is it surprising that they act like it?
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  It's a fucked-up system that perpetuates fetishization of a "golden Willy Wonka ticket" in order to mint underpaid workers on a leash. I've seen such tech workers make 3-10% of equivalent native salaries, and live in appalling group housing conditions to save money. (TCS, anyone?) There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    >There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is. I mean, sure there is, people just don't want to fix it for various reasons. For example, reform the H1B and Green Card processes. Make the H1B an actual path to a green card and citizenship which most people seem to want nowadays. Cap H1Bs per nation (so there's a clear concise path to citizenship if you're in the US) rather than Green Cards or increase the Green Card caps. Blaming the people who are trying to make a better life for themselves by working within the system that those more wealthy than them have set up just seems very silly to me. Blame those who setup the system instead.
    - doggodaddo78 6y ago
      I never blamed any one group, you inferred that yourself. I blame human nature and the situation.
    - digianarchist 6y ago
      Capping H1Bs per nation is an effective cut since Indians dominate the program. The solution is actually to clear the EB Green Card backlog with a one time allocation to all backlogged applicants followed by removing the per country cap.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - winter_blue 6y ago
      Capping visas based on country of birth, is literally racism. Don’t be a racist.
      - winter_blue 6y ago
        Why am I not surprised that this is downvoted? Because HN is choke-full of racists, xenophobes, inveterate nativists, and white nationalists — and nobody here seems to want to acknowledge this “uncomfortable” truth. It’s dark and dreary, but that’s the sort of shitty people who are unfortunately ta majority of users here.
- gumby 6y ago
  My cousin reminded me the other day that back in the 80s I was introduced by innumerable mums as “attends MIT and has a green card”. Literally that was my entire “biography”. Edit: seems like thing have diverged since I had to worry about these things: The waiting time for non-Indian green cards is the same btw.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - legolas2412 6y ago
    For eb2 and eb3 visas, For chinese and mexicans it's similar. For everyone else, no.
    - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
      I think Filipinos have similar wait times.
  - gabbo 6y ago
    Not sure what you mean by non-Indian green cards exactly, but just to clarify, the waiting time for EB2/EB3 green cards for those in India is really dramatically behind everywhere else (final action dates are a rough proxy for "waiting time" but actually understate the problem): https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2021/visa-bulletin-for-march-2021.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...
    - KingOfCoders 6y ago
      Because as someone from the EU, why would I go to California? I have been there countless times because of my job and was always happy getting back to Europe (where in most parts no old people fill bags, receptionists do not need to work with broken arms and not a myriad of poor Mexicans are treated like the reenact "Gone with the wind"). I had to suppress a laugh flash whenever an ICE agent wanted hard to find out if I wanted to illegally stay in the country. Why on earth would I?
    - 6y ago
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  A lot of the wait time is really self-imposed. Visa abuse is rampant at consulting companies... that are mostly Indian-owned! [0] This doesn't help the wait time for the legitimate cases. [0] https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/silicon-valleys-body-shop-secret/78781/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/silicon-valleys-body-s...
  - belltaco 6y ago
    You have the cause and effect reversed. Body shops and US companies love hiring Indians over other nationalities precisely because they're much more likely to get stuck working for them for several years if not decades, and making them more money while suppressing wages, while other nationalities switch companies for higher pay etc. once they get their Green Card in a year or two. The body shops only exist and serve a purpose because the worker visa laws are worker-hostile and company-friendly on purpose to screw labor and benefit companies, for example according to the law workers are illegal aliens starting on Saturday after getting laid off or fired on Friday. People have to file a Freedom of Information Act to get a receipt number of a step in a Green Card process to continue the process at different company if the previous employer refuses to give it to you. It's not just me saying that, the Congressional Research Service has it in their report about removing country caps. If that happens then there is no reason for these companies to prefer hiring Indians over others. TLDR: The abuse that you speak of is the end result of the racist per country limits from 1964. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45447 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45447 >Others who favor eliminating the per-country ceiling contend that the current system discriminates against some foreign workers based on their country of origin, a characteristic they contend has little bearing on workers’ labor market contributions. Such proponents argue that the current system effectively ties immigrant workers to the employers that sponsor them for extended periods and invites potential exploitation. According to this perspective, employers who petition on behalf of prospective employment-based immigrants have disproportionate power over them. Because such employers can withdraw their petitions at will, they discourage foreign workers from negotiating for higher wages and/or improved working conditions.55 All else being equal, rational employers therefore benefit financially by sponsoring such workers who remain relatively immobile during their extensive waits to receive LPR status. Prospective immigrants who consider leaving their employers face the prospect of effectively forfeiting their pending employment-based immigrant petitions. If they cannot utilize another immigration pathway to remain in the United States, they must return to their home countries. In particular, Indian (and to a lesser extent Chinese and Filipino) nationals sit in much longer queues of pending employment-based petitions submitted to USCIS and visa applications to DOS than their counterparts from other countries.56 They consequently must wait the longest to obtain LPR status. Those who favor eliminating the per-country cap contend that such circumstances effectively encourage employers to sponsor prospective employment-based immigrants primarily from India.57 According to this perspective, de facto discrimination results on the basis of origin country, fostered partly by U.S. laws which otherwise prohibit most forms of labor market discrimination. The more that employers follow this hiring approach, the greater the queue of Indian prospective immigrants and the longer the waiting times for acquiring LPR status, creating a self-reinforcing cycle that may limit hiring of prospective employment-based immigrants from other countries. Proponents argue, therefore, that removing the per-country ceiling from employment-based immigrants would “level the playing field” by making immigrants from all countries more equally attractive to employers. If the per-country ceiling is eliminated and the current queue of pending petitions and visas is processed, proponents argue, employers would have no incentive to sponsor employment-based immigrants from any one country over others except based on conventional labor market criteria. As a result, waiting times for prospective employment-based immigrants to receive LPR status would ultimately equalize across countries of origin
ricardobayes 6y ago
Well, there is at least gold where you grew up. Lots of other areas have gone through the same transformation without the 'gold'. For example where I live is a touristic part of Spain. It wasn't touristic at all 40 years ago, so much so that people washed their clothes in the river (not joking). Come mass tourism they abandoned everything and erected megahotels. But tourists priced locals out, nobody can afford housing anymore. It is impossible for an avocado picker turned waiter to keep up with foreigner prices. Same thing as the Bay Area, but without 'gold' to be earned. Most people even if they work their butt off earn around 1000 USD a month.
- devoutsalsa 6y ago
  I was just in Playa Del Carmen, Mexico. Everything was geared towards grabbing those tourist dollars. Nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there. I’d feel a little better about it if the tourist cash stayed with the locals, but I don’t suspect it does. It’s like displace local culture with tourist culture, and pray the tourists keep coming.
  - doggodaddo78 6y ago
    Everyone hates a tourist but loves their money. It's a universal law.
  - eplanit 6y ago
    It's the same everywhere, I guess. I lived in Sausalito for 14 years, and can attest that that is exactly what a "tourist town" is/becomes, by design.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    To be fair, that's Playa Del Carmen's schtick. The entire town was built in the last 20 years. It's like complaining about the culture at Disneyland. Mexico has no shortage of local culture, thankfully.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- 6y ago
objclxt 6y ago
> because of the predominant "fuck it" attitude: don't learn the customs, don't speak the language, don't put down roots, and don't interact with locals [...] when you bring in a junior software engineer's extended family, you're getting a swath of average people too There isn't a huge amount of difference between what you're saying and what the previous president had to say on immigrants coming to the US - "when Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best". Which a lot of people find an extremely problematic perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, but I find it a little ironic when your HN profile says you have: > Love for all: LGBTQ+, BLM, poly, AGR, and misfits of the world unite.
- majjgepolja 6y ago
  Most of BLM/LGBTQLMONOP hipsters are still racist towards Indians and Asians because that's not even criticized.
  - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
    Exactly, these comments would result in bans if they were about black people instead of south asians.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- twaybtclong 6y ago
  Wonder how he got that idea: > “Chiva,” his uncle said. Goat, the Mexican slang term for black tar heroin. “This is how we make our money.” Cora Indian campesinos grew the poppies in the mountains above Xalisco. They harvested the opium goo from the flowers and sold it to cookers whom Enrique’s uncles knew. A newly cooked kilo of vinegary, sticky chiva would head north in a boom box or a backpack within a couple days, virtually uncut, and often hit L.A. streets only a week after the goo was drawn from the poppy. As Enrique’s uncle spoke, he rolled little pieces of the gunk into balls the size of BBs. "Dreamland" https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidemic/dp/1511336404 https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidem...
lhorie 6y ago
I'm sorry but consider that this right here is discrimination too. Go to Costco in Markham, Ontario and you're going to be seeing a lot of chinese people in the way you describe too. But then consider: when was the last time you stepped into your local hmart (a Korean supermarket chain)? People congregate with similar people. This is something torontonians have gotten over ages ago. Mingle if you want to, but also accept that not everyone is a lend-sugar-to-neighbor international social butterfly. NIMBYism isn't going to help.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  NIMBY is for nuclear reactors, not groups of people who Balkanize themselves into their own gated communities, whether native or immigrants.
  - lhorie 6y ago
    Come on now, if you're gonna be pulling the "I lived here 40 years" card, at least acknowledge issues like affordable housing and tech hating graffiti.
  - fatjokes 6y ago
    What's wrong with letting people live how they want to?
holistio 6y ago
Also, I noticed some commenters make harsh and hateful generalisations about people they do not actually know. Sigh. This comment above made me a bit sad.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  Harsh? Hateful? Where? Why are you shouting "racist! racist!" so frivolously? You and your assumptions make you sad. I lived in the Valley for 40 years, consulted in Fortune 500's and startups. YOU are the ignorant and intellectually-bankrupt one.
  - dang 6y ago
    Your GP comment was already against the site guidelines (note this one: "Please don't fulminate."), but posting like you did here will get you banned on HN, so please don't do that again. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Yeah, it reads to me like the usual age old generalizations of "I don't dislike group X but they're just dirty slobs with no manners, not their fault of course, but they are that."
mc32 6y ago
A contributor to the attitude is the caste itself. These kids (huge majority from upper castes) are treated with too much deference at home by the parents, family and society. Since they are served well at home by servants and society when they go to foreign lands their expectations don’t change and they take the baggage with them. Mind you, they’re modulating the behavior a bit abroad because at home it’s even more pronounced. And while SV is taken by DEI there are more than a few companies that lean very heavily to one foreign ethnicity to the exclusion of others. It’s an amusing contrast of signaling vs reality. On the other hand, I’ve worked with nice ‘regular guys’ (from India) who had sloughed off any trappings of caste don’t have pretensions and they are a pleasure to work with and indeed contribute to our society.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  I worked with a dude at a Pac12 who expected rides home because he didn't have a car. I quit after he derisively referred to my friend and his attitude become intolerably obnoxious. This is what happens when someone is raised with 40 servants, becomes a stock broker, and then decides to dabble in medical academia instead. Treat kids like royalty and they will act like they're innately special and deserving more than others do.
  - doggodaddo78 6y ago
    Oh and they were Brahmin with servants.
  - nirav0l17 6y ago
    I don't disagree with your general premise, but expecting rides home is not very uncommon in India in my experience. Ridesharing/dropping colleagues off at home if it's on the way is pretty common.
- majjgepolja 6y ago
  > These kids (huge majority from upper castes) are treated with too much deference at home by the parents, family and society. Since they are served well at home by servants ... Do not know which area you are from. But in practice most of the traditional "Upper caste" people are not rich enough for having servants. Their air of superiority comes from mere name of the caste and tribal feeling, but upper caste people will be dime a dozen in any given area and grow up like middle class kids.
ramraj07 6y ago
I’m neither Brahmin nor IITian but am in the immediately adjacent category of Indians. Are many of these IIT alumni (and others as well) from India basically rednecks with engineering degrees? Probably yes. Does it mean your “learn the language” attitude is actually relevant to this discussion? Probably not. Guess who else tells me, a Tamil guy, to learn the language? The same IITians (Hindi is the most popular language in India). So if you were born in New Delhi in a Brahmin Family you’d probably be doing in Cisco and Costco exactly what you blame these immigrants of doing. The fundamental flaw in humanity seems to be this absolute belief that they are the good guy and everyone else is the bad guy. Self reflection will reveal that we all live in the same spectrum of shittiness just coming in different flavours given circumstances.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  "Absolute belief" is something you inferred that wasn't there. Human nature is what it is. Bring enough of any group of people to another place, there will be cultural replacement. What about the self reflection of those who let themselves be underpaid and displace the local culture for a quick buck? It seems like you're being sanctimonious. The Bay Area can keep Man Jose, Sunnyvale, and the East bay. I avoid American yuppies without life experience and the precariat too, so don't feel too special.
  - ath92 6y ago
    > who let themselves be underpaid So what should these people do instead? Stay where they are and get paid much less?
    - doggodaddo78 6y ago
      I think people should try to integrate into the community where they're at rather than invade it, change it, use it up, and treat it like a disposable holiday. "When in Rome..."
  - romwell 6y ago
    > What about the self reflection of those who let themselves be underpaid If this phrase isn't an example of white privilege so despised here, I don't know what is. But sure. Let's blame the workers who aren't in charge of policy or decision-making. To complete that bingo, the only thing missing is an "I don't vote because the system is rigged" statement. >The Bay Area can keep Man Jose, Sunnyvale, and the East bay. I avoid American yuppies without life experience and the precariat too, so don't feel too special. "I avoid people based on their life experiences, but also you specifically because of where you are from, so don't feel too special" To anyone wondering how casual racism looks like, you're welcome.
yunohn 6y ago
You sound like the pinnacle of human quality. Glad that I don’t work with you...
gherkinnn 6y ago
> Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. You've just described a large amount of tech expats, no matter where they're from or what they're mining.
- 0goel0 6y ago
  Gold miners is the literal history of California. The fact of the matter is that OP's comment is good old-fashioned racism wrapped in fancy words to harness HN votes.
0goel0 6y ago
Funny how no one says the same about people from France or Australia..
- amznthrowaway5 6y ago
  Or black people, any criticism of black people would be met with outrage. So much hypocrisy.
navait 6y ago
What do you mean by problems at Costco? I've visited a few of them and I can't say people behave at the ones in California any different than the ones in Texas. It's crowded but everyone speaks english and follows the rules.
pratik661 6y ago
Its insane the level of generalizations about Indians/Asians that are tolerated in "woke" spaces like this forum. If someone made a similar comment about black people, they would be excoriated (and rightfully so). As an Indian American who lived in SF, this perception of "unwantedness" was pervasive. People aren't outright racist but harbor views that imply that Indians/Asians are not part of the "in" group. We are seen as a monolith rather than as individuals. This hypocrisy really irks me and I will call it out when I see it. Your rhetoric is not that different from Trump's. I get that there are anxieties about the familiar culture of the place you grew up in changing due to immigration/migration from other parts of the country. However, no place in the history of the world was culturally static.

marcinzm 6y ago

>failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin I mean, have you seen the waiting times for Indian US green cards? You may literally die of old age before getting through the queue right now. The system is structured to make them disposable temporary workers and not future American citizens. So why is it surprising that they act like it?

doggodaddo78 6y ago
It's a fucked-up system that perpetuates fetishization of a "golden Willy Wonka ticket" in order to mint underpaid workers on a leash. I've seen such tech workers make 3-10% of equivalent native salaries, and live in appalling group housing conditions to save money. (TCS, anyone?) There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is. I mean, sure there is, people just don't want to fix it for various reasons. For example, reform the H1B and Green Card processes. Make the H1B an actual path to a green card and citizenship which most people seem to want nowadays. Cap H1Bs per nation (so there's a clear concise path to citizenship if you're in the US) rather than Green Cards or increase the Green Card caps. Blaming the people who are trying to make a better life for themselves by working within the system that those more wealthy than them have set up just seems very silly to me. Blame those who setup the system instead.
  - doggodaddo78 6y ago
    I never blamed any one group, you inferred that yourself. I blame human nature and the situation.
  - digianarchist 6y ago
    Capping H1Bs per nation is an effective cut since Indians dominate the program. The solution is actually to clear the EB Green Card backlog with a one time allocation to all backlogged applicants followed by removing the per country cap.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - winter_blue 6y ago
    Capping visas based on country of birth, is literally racism. Don’t be a racist.
    - winter_blue 6y ago
      Why am I not surprised that this is downvoted? Because HN is choke-full of racists, xenophobes, inveterate nativists, and white nationalists — and nobody here seems to want to acknowledge this “uncomfortable” truth. It’s dark and dreary, but that’s the sort of shitty people who are unfortunately ta majority of users here.
gumby 6y ago
My cousin reminded me the other day that back in the 80s I was introduced by innumerable mums as “attends MIT and has a green card”. Literally that was my entire “biography”. Edit: seems like thing have diverged since I had to worry about these things: The waiting time for non-Indian green cards is the same btw.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- legolas2412 6y ago
  For eb2 and eb3 visas, For chinese and mexicans it's similar. For everyone else, no.
  - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
    I think Filipinos have similar wait times.
- gabbo 6y ago
  Not sure what you mean by non-Indian green cards exactly, but just to clarify, the waiting time for EB2/EB3 green cards for those in India is really dramatically behind everywhere else (final action dates are a rough proxy for "waiting time" but actually understate the problem): https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2021/visa-bulletin-for-march-2021.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    Because as someone from the EU, why would I go to California? I have been there countless times because of my job and was always happy getting back to Europe (where in most parts no old people fill bags, receptionists do not need to work with broken arms and not a myriad of poor Mexicans are treated like the reenact "Gone with the wind"). I had to suppress a laugh flash whenever an ICE agent wanted hard to find out if I wanted to illegally stay in the country. Why on earth would I?
  - 6y ago
908B64B197 6y ago
A lot of the wait time is really self-imposed. Visa abuse is rampant at consulting companies... that are mostly Indian-owned! [0] This doesn't help the wait time for the legitimate cases. [0] https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/silicon-valleys-body-shop-secret/78781/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/silicon-valleys-body-s...
- belltaco 6y ago
  You have the cause and effect reversed. Body shops and US companies love hiring Indians over other nationalities precisely because they're much more likely to get stuck working for them for several years if not decades, and making them more money while suppressing wages, while other nationalities switch companies for higher pay etc. once they get their Green Card in a year or two. The body shops only exist and serve a purpose because the worker visa laws are worker-hostile and company-friendly on purpose to screw labor and benefit companies, for example according to the law workers are illegal aliens starting on Saturday after getting laid off or fired on Friday. People have to file a Freedom of Information Act to get a receipt number of a step in a Green Card process to continue the process at different company if the previous employer refuses to give it to you. It's not just me saying that, the Congressional Research Service has it in their report about removing country caps. If that happens then there is no reason for these companies to prefer hiring Indians over others. TLDR: The abuse that you speak of is the end result of the racist per country limits from 1964. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45447 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45447 >Others who favor eliminating the per-country ceiling contend that the current system discriminates against some foreign workers based on their country of origin, a characteristic they contend has little bearing on workers’ labor market contributions. Such proponents argue that the current system effectively ties immigrant workers to the employers that sponsor them for extended periods and invites potential exploitation. According to this perspective, employers who petition on behalf of prospective employment-based immigrants have disproportionate power over them. Because such employers can withdraw their petitions at will, they discourage foreign workers from negotiating for higher wages and/or improved working conditions.55 All else being equal, rational employers therefore benefit financially by sponsoring such workers who remain relatively immobile during their extensive waits to receive LPR status. Prospective immigrants who consider leaving their employers face the prospect of effectively forfeiting their pending employment-based immigrant petitions. If they cannot utilize another immigration pathway to remain in the United States, they must return to their home countries. In particular, Indian (and to a lesser extent Chinese and Filipino) nationals sit in much longer queues of pending employment-based petitions submitted to USCIS and visa applications to DOS than their counterparts from other countries.56 They consequently must wait the longest to obtain LPR status. Those who favor eliminating the per-country cap contend that such circumstances effectively encourage employers to sponsor prospective employment-based immigrants primarily from India.57 According to this perspective, de facto discrimination results on the basis of origin country, fostered partly by U.S. laws which otherwise prohibit most forms of labor market discrimination. The more that employers follow this hiring approach, the greater the queue of Indian prospective immigrants and the longer the waiting times for acquiring LPR status, creating a self-reinforcing cycle that may limit hiring of prospective employment-based immigrants from other countries. Proponents argue, therefore, that removing the per-country ceiling from employment-based immigrants would “level the playing field” by making immigrants from all countries more equally attractive to employers. If the per-country ceiling is eliminated and the current queue of pending petitions and visas is processed, proponents argue, employers would have no incentive to sponsor employment-based immigrants from any one country over others except based on conventional labor market criteria. As a result, waiting times for prospective employment-based immigrants to receive LPR status would ultimately equalize across countries of origin

ricardobayes 6y ago

Well, there is at least gold where you grew up. Lots of other areas have gone through the same transformation without the 'gold'. For example where I live is a touristic part of Spain. It wasn't touristic at all 40 years ago, so much so that people washed their clothes in the river (not joking). Come mass tourism they abandoned everything and erected megahotels. But tourists priced locals out, nobody can afford housing anymore. It is impossible for an avocado picker turned waiter to keep up with foreigner prices. Same thing as the Bay Area, but without 'gold' to be earned. Most people even if they work their butt off earn around 1000 USD a month.

devoutsalsa 6y ago
I was just in Playa Del Carmen, Mexico. Everything was geared towards grabbing those tourist dollars. Nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there. I’d feel a little better about it if the tourist cash stayed with the locals, but I don’t suspect it does. It’s like displace local culture with tourist culture, and pray the tourists keep coming.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  Everyone hates a tourist but loves their money. It's a universal law.
- eplanit 6y ago
  It's the same everywhere, I guess. I lived in Sausalito for 14 years, and can attest that that is exactly what a "tourist town" is/becomes, by design.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  To be fair, that's Playa Del Carmen's schtick. The entire town was built in the last 20 years. It's like complaining about the culture at Disneyland. Mexico has no shortage of local culture, thankfully.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
6y ago

objclxt 6y ago

> because of the predominant "fuck it" attitude: don't learn the customs, don't speak the language, don't put down roots, and don't interact with locals [...] when you bring in a junior software engineer's extended family, you're getting a swath of average people too There isn't a huge amount of difference between what you're saying and what the previous president had to say on immigrants coming to the US - "when Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best". Which a lot of people find an extremely problematic perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, but I find it a little ironic when your HN profile says you have: > Love for all: LGBTQ+, BLM, poly, AGR, and misfits of the world unite.

majjgepolja 6y ago
Most of BLM/LGBTQLMONOP hipsters are still racist towards Indians and Asians because that's not even criticized.
- amznthrowaway5 6y ago
  Exactly, these comments would result in bans if they were about black people instead of south asians.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
twaybtclong 6y ago
Wonder how he got that idea: > “Chiva,” his uncle said. Goat, the Mexican slang term for black tar heroin. “This is how we make our money.” Cora Indian campesinos grew the poppies in the mountains above Xalisco. They harvested the opium goo from the flowers and sold it to cookers whom Enrique’s uncles knew. A newly cooked kilo of vinegary, sticky chiva would head north in a boom box or a backpack within a couple days, virtually uncut, and often hit L.A. streets only a week after the goo was drawn from the poppy. As Enrique’s uncle spoke, he rolled little pieces of the gunk into balls the size of BBs. "Dreamland" https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidemic/dp/1511336404 https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidem...

lhorie 6y ago

I'm sorry but consider that this right here is discrimination too. Go to Costco in Markham, Ontario and you're going to be seeing a lot of chinese people in the way you describe too. But then consider: when was the last time you stepped into your local hmart (a Korean supermarket chain)? People congregate with similar people. This is something torontonians have gotten over ages ago. Mingle if you want to, but also accept that not everyone is a lend-sugar-to-neighbor international social butterfly. NIMBYism isn't going to help.

doggodaddo78 6y ago
NIMBY is for nuclear reactors, not groups of people who Balkanize themselves into their own gated communities, whether native or immigrants.
- lhorie 6y ago
  Come on now, if you're gonna be pulling the "I lived here 40 years" card, at least acknowledge issues like affordable housing and tech hating graffiti.
- fatjokes 6y ago
  What's wrong with letting people live how they want to?

holistio 6y ago

Also, I noticed some commenters make harsh and hateful generalisations about people they do not actually know. Sigh. This comment above made me a bit sad.

doggodaddo78 6y ago
Harsh? Hateful? Where? Why are you shouting "racist! racist!" so frivolously? You and your assumptions make you sad. I lived in the Valley for 40 years, consulted in Fortune 500's and startups. YOU are the ignorant and intellectually-bankrupt one.
- dang 6y ago
  Your GP comment was already against the site guidelines (note this one: "Please don't fulminate."), but posting like you did here will get you banned on HN, so please don't do that again. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
marcinzm 6y ago
Yeah, it reads to me like the usual age old generalizations of "I don't dislike group X but they're just dirty slobs with no manners, not their fault of course, but they are that."

mc32 6y ago

A contributor to the attitude is the caste itself. These kids (huge majority from upper castes) are treated with too much deference at home by the parents, family and society. Since they are served well at home by servants and society when they go to foreign lands their expectations don’t change and they take the baggage with them. Mind you, they’re modulating the behavior a bit abroad because at home it’s even more pronounced. And while SV is taken by DEI there are more than a few companies that lean very heavily to one foreign ethnicity to the exclusion of others. It’s an amusing contrast of signaling vs reality. On the other hand, I’ve worked with nice ‘regular guys’ (from India) who had sloughed off any trappings of caste don’t have pretensions and they are a pleasure to work with and indeed contribute to our society.

doggodaddo78 6y ago
I worked with a dude at a Pac12 who expected rides home because he didn't have a car. I quit after he derisively referred to my friend and his attitude become intolerably obnoxious. This is what happens when someone is raised with 40 servants, becomes a stock broker, and then decides to dabble in medical academia instead. Treat kids like royalty and they will act like they're innately special and deserving more than others do.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  Oh and they were Brahmin with servants.
- nirav0l17 6y ago
  I don't disagree with your general premise, but expecting rides home is not very uncommon in India in my experience. Ridesharing/dropping colleagues off at home if it's on the way is pretty common.
majjgepolja 6y ago
> These kids (huge majority from upper castes) are treated with too much deference at home by the parents, family and society. Since they are served well at home by servants ... Do not know which area you are from. But in practice most of the traditional "Upper caste" people are not rich enough for having servants. Their air of superiority comes from mere name of the caste and tribal feeling, but upper caste people will be dime a dozen in any given area and grow up like middle class kids.

ramraj07 6y ago

I’m neither Brahmin nor IITian but am in the immediately adjacent category of Indians. Are many of these IIT alumni (and others as well) from India basically rednecks with engineering degrees? Probably yes. Does it mean your “learn the language” attitude is actually relevant to this discussion? Probably not. Guess who else tells me, a Tamil guy, to learn the language? The same IITians (Hindi is the most popular language in India). So if you were born in New Delhi in a Brahmin Family you’d probably be doing in Cisco and Costco exactly what you blame these immigrants of doing. The fundamental flaw in humanity seems to be this absolute belief that they are the good guy and everyone else is the bad guy. Self reflection will reveal that we all live in the same spectrum of shittiness just coming in different flavours given circumstances.

doggodaddo78 6y ago
"Absolute belief" is something you inferred that wasn't there. Human nature is what it is. Bring enough of any group of people to another place, there will be cultural replacement. What about the self reflection of those who let themselves be underpaid and displace the local culture for a quick buck? It seems like you're being sanctimonious. The Bay Area can keep Man Jose, Sunnyvale, and the East bay. I avoid American yuppies without life experience and the precariat too, so don't feel too special.
- ath92 6y ago
  > who let themselves be underpaid So what should these people do instead? Stay where they are and get paid much less?
  - doggodaddo78 6y ago
    I think people should try to integrate into the community where they're at rather than invade it, change it, use it up, and treat it like a disposable holiday. "When in Rome..."
- romwell 6y ago
  > What about the self reflection of those who let themselves be underpaid If this phrase isn't an example of white privilege so despised here, I don't know what is. But sure. Let's blame the workers who aren't in charge of policy or decision-making. To complete that bingo, the only thing missing is an "I don't vote because the system is rigged" statement. >The Bay Area can keep Man Jose, Sunnyvale, and the East bay. I avoid American yuppies without life experience and the precariat too, so don't feel too special. "I avoid people based on their life experiences, but also you specifically because of where you are from, so don't feel too special" To anyone wondering how casual racism looks like, you're welcome.

yunohn 6y ago

You sound like the pinnacle of human quality. Glad that I don’t work with you...

gherkinnn 6y ago

> Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. You've just described a large amount of tech expats, no matter where they're from or what they're mining.

0goel0 6y ago
Gold miners is the literal history of California. The fact of the matter is that OP's comment is good old-fashioned racism wrapped in fancy words to harness HN votes.

0goel0 6y ago

Funny how no one says the same about people from France or Australia..

amznthrowaway5 6y ago
Or black people, any criticism of black people would be met with outrage. So much hypocrisy.

navait 6y ago

What do you mean by problems at Costco? I've visited a few of them and I can't say people behave at the ones in California any different than the ones in Texas. It's crowded but everyone speaks english and follows the rules.

pratik661 6y ago

Its insane the level of generalizations about Indians/Asians that are tolerated in "woke" spaces like this forum. If someone made a similar comment about black people, they would be excoriated (and rightfully so). As an Indian American who lived in SF, this perception of "unwantedness" was pervasive. People aren't outright racist but harbor views that imply that Indians/Asians are not part of the "in" group. We are seen as a monolith rather than as individuals. This hypocrisy really irks me and I will call it out when I see it. Your rhetoric is not that different from Trump's. I get that there are anxieties about the familiar culture of the place you grew up in changing due to immigration/migration from other parts of the country. However, no place in the history of the world was culturally static.