31 ms·

How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

200 points by known 6y ago

approxim8ion 6y ago
Prepare for serious astroturfing if this post gets any traction.
- P_I_Staker 6y ago
  How so?
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    There are swathes of Indians who consider it their responsibility to push back against any content that is critical of certain topics. Caste being one of them. Have a look at any of the past threads [1] [1]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=caste&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
    - P_I_Staker 6y ago
      I figured that's what you meant, but I'd rather it just be said. It wasn't clear what you were trying to say.
- dang 6y ago
  This comment breaks the site guidelines. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    My bad.
throwaway713 6y ago
I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  I could be wrong, but it seems like importing a system of arbitrary discrimination whereas America maybe viewed as some mythological, egalitarian land where the streets are paved in gold.
- EdwardDiego 6y ago
  I have a reasonable suspicion that people who have benefited from the caste system previously, will be favourable towards it still. What I'm curious about is, do they go OTT with it? I know for my country folk, something about moving overseas seems to compel us to wear All Black paraphernalia far more than we do home, and also, the drunken 3am hakas outside a kebab shop, far more commonly encountered overseas than in NZ itself.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    You can see this in the UK "community elders" will deny it but there are some nasty issues particularly untouchables. I know one of the MP's that helped add caste discrimination to the UK's legal system - this probably ought to be added to the US laws as well.
- jtdev 6y ago
  In India, you’re born into a socioeconomic position and the likelihood of ever moving upward in the socioeconomic structure is virtually zero. Those at the top of the socioeconomic structure treat those below them like complete shit.
  - majjgepolja 6y ago
doggodaddo78 6y ago
Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I ejected from that heap. Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. Sunnyvale Costco is like an airport in Burma (okay, Myanmar), not because of race, culture, or ethnicity, but because of the predominant "fuck it" attitude: don't learn the customs, don't speak the language, don't put down roots, and don't interact with locals. There are perfectly nice, Americanized immigrants like a good fraction of the TiE folks but when you bring in a junior software engineer's extended family, you're getting a swath of average people too... and that's like moving a crowd of random Floridian Disneyland-goers in for a temporary extended stay. Also, I noticed how the offspring of the well-to-do from authoritarian countries act like, or even worse than, drunk American college students in the rest of the world. For example, I noticed mainland PRC kids pointing, laughing, harassing, and taking poverty porn pictures of homeless people in Palo Alto.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin I mean, have you seen the waiting times for Indian US green cards? You may literally die of old age before getting through the queue right now. The system is structured to make them disposable temporary workers and not future American citizens. So why is it surprising that they act like it?
  - doggodaddo78 6y ago
    It's a fucked-up system that perpetuates fetishization of a "golden Willy Wonka ticket" in order to mint underpaid workers on a leash. I've seen such tech workers make 3-10% of equivalent native salaries, and live in appalling group housing conditions to save money. (TCS, anyone?) There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      >There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is. I mean, sure there is, people just don't want to fix it for various reasons. For example, reform the H1B and Green Card processes. Make the H1B an actual path to a green card and citizenship which most people seem to want nowadays. Cap H1Bs per nation (so there's a clear concise path to citizenship if you're in the US) rather than Green Cards or increase the Green Card caps. Blaming the people who are trying to make a better life for themselves by working within the system that those more wealthy than them have set up just seems very silly to me. Blame those who setup the system instead.
akimball 6y ago
Paywalled content is effectively marketing spam, is it not?
- andrew_ 6y ago
  Disable JS and read freely
srameshc 6y ago
I once was volunteering at an event. I was having a causal conversation with another guy and after a while he asked me my last name and decided to not indulge in any further conversation anymore. This is one of many instances I experienced. There is a paper about caste oppression. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3725938 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3725938
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. While it is apparent that US job market is not a meritocracy, it simply cannot allow ( hell, afford ) to import bad practices from afar.
  - iamshs 6y ago
    It is already in US and is being defended by Hindu organizations with reason like - ‘Caste discrimination is a Hindu right that should go unchallenged’ https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261 https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261
    - ashneo76 6y ago
      As a Hindu, I am ashamed. I am glad to not be part of any such orgs. This is despicable. US cannot afford to continue this.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        The tweet does not substantiate its claims, at least not that I can see due to the source being paywalled.
    - naravara 6y ago
      That sounds like an uncharitable interpretation of what HAF said, but I can't verify because they never link to the source statement and the article she points at is behind a paywall. Come to think of it this "Attribute quotes to people and then say 'read the (paywalled) article' when someone asks for context" strategy seems like a pretty good way to spread misinformation. Edit: Okay did some googling and found the source statement. That tweet is definitely a very bad faith misreading of HAF's statement which says: > In its complaint, California argues that Cisco failed to address discrimination against one of its engineers by co-workers on the basis of his presumed caste. California goes on to state that caste is “a strict Hindu social and religious hierarchy” and therefore an integral part of Hindu teachings and practices. Framing its argument in this way, California is attempting to do what the Constitution clearly says it cannot, HAF said: defining Hindu religious doctrine for Hindus. In other words, HAF isn't saying discrimination is a Hindu right. They're saying it's inappropriate for US Courts to define what constitutes "Hindu belief systems." This sounds appropriate since setting precedent in a court that defines anyone who professes belief in Hinduism as being casteist a priori would basically be opening the door to religious discrimination.
OliverJones 6y ago
A story. A few years back I worked with an Indian team of developers and testers. They did a great job. Their lead was an IIT graduate. They have two managing partners; one is a secular Hindu and the other a practicing Muslim. Multicultural they are. I went to visit them once. (Always a good idea to personally get to know people who work on your stuff!) They're in Odisha, in the east of India. I asked the group, over lunch, about the caste system. Everybody agreed that it was a thing of the past and a historical shame. But, later, each team member found a private way to tell me they came from Brahmin (top caste) families. It was really interesting to see how it played out. Is it possible that human nature relentlessly drives us to this sort of tribalism? It shows up as racism in the western hemisphere, the caste system in India, the class system in England and their former colonies, and so forth. At any rate, resisting this tribalism is hard work. But do that work we must. It's helpful to this westerner to learn about the caste system. I suppose it's equally helpful to people from India to learn about American racism.
- WillSlim95 6y ago
  Not surprised my folks are from the same region and they behave exactly like that. I have heard enough relatives mention SC/ST as a term of derision and simultaneously discussing with other people talk as if the system is dead.
- iamshs 6y ago
  Racism and caste endogamy is very different... caste is violence given stamp of approval through religion, you cannot escape it. Dalits are beheaded for wearing turban, riding a horse, taking their marriage procession from upper caste street. Moreover, it has present day support of the system in India. Hindu saint who classified the castes through his treatise, Manu Smriti, finds his statue in front of Rajasthan High Court. News from today: Woman married a lower-caste guy, eloped, families lodged missing person complaint in Police, Police found the married couple and handed them over to their families. Woman's brother beheads his brother-in-law, sister hangs herself. https://twitter.com/ShoaibDaniyal/status/1370344548535177216 https://twitter.com/ShoaibDaniyal/status/1370344548535177216
  - 6y ago
throwaway123x2 6y ago
Does caste matter for Muslims and Christians in India?
- bluGill 6y ago
  Yes, but how much depends. If you are part of a tiny sect it matters not at all, the others in your new group are happy to have anyone. If you are part of a very large sect then there is a need to divide into smaller groups because a person can only have so many friends and caste is an the fallback to divide on. Most people have family of other religion, and so they often do something about family. Sometimes that means other-cast friends in the religion are kept apart from family, sometimes it means they are thrown in the face of family as a way to show how different they are. I know more about Christian practice than Muslims. I suspect the same logic applies but I'm not sure.
- lazyninja987 6y ago
  go to www.christianmatrimony.com and sign up. one of the data point they ask 'caste preference'. caste is a social nuisance, not a religious one.
- pradn 6y ago
  Yes, among Muslims, Christians, and Sikhs. Watch a minute of video here to see examples: https://youtu.be/ZPmAltGay3s?t=1965 https://youtu.be/ZPmAltGay3s?t=1965
  - throwaway123x2 6y ago
    Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>This is something torontonians have gotten over ages ago. Bad example. Canada is a globalist punching bag and their behaviour isn't indicative of a country that has grown but one that has merely submitted. I lived in Toronto for a couple of years and even at that point most of the people I met who were born and bred there were hauling ass out of the city to places like Barrie, Burlington or other provinces entirely. What's left is a city full of people with little ties to the place and with little in common beyond being "fans" of manufactured "Canadian" MLSE teams and a love for consuming mainly American media, American brands and American social issues. It's a soulless husk of a city and one that should serve as an example to others of what not to let your home descend to.
- lhorie 6y ago
  I lived in Toronto for well over a decade. Perhaps this is a irreconcilable difference of opinion, but what you call a "globalist punching bag" is also affectionately called a melting pot. What you call a manufactured husk is also called diverse vibrant city. Beauty is in eye of the beholder, I guess. Toronto has one of the best culinary scenes I've ever seen, and a lot of character if you know where to look ("little X" towns are microcosmos of their own) I'm not sure if you're implying the city should belong to Caucasians, but as far a the "little ties" remark goes, I disagree. Lots and lots of international folks settle down permanently in the GTA and surrounding towns.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    >what you call a "globalist punching bag" is also affectionately called a melting pot. Toronto is explicitly not a melting pot. Trudeau and others have been explicit in describing Canada (and Toronto) as being a mosaic of cultures, or a patchwork, or quilt, and not the melting pot that America touts itself to be. Canada's migration policies are one facet of my labelling it a globalist punching bag, among many, but certainly not isolated to it and mainly due to the motivations behind it. The rest of your post is literal memes and shallow accusations of racism and as such isn't worth addressing.
    - 6y ago
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cies 6y ago
Happy to've seen a picture of B.R. Ambedkar. Not Indian but major respect for this man!
apexkid 6y ago
This article is as bullshit at it can get with no proof and random catch phrases on the lines of "ohh blacks are hated in America". Truth is, there is absolutely no place for cast in any top Indian engineering colleges. Millennials and GenZ does not give a single fuck to what the cast of a person is. That too in IITs were 90% students come from middle or poor class of society and have similar lifestyle. There can always be one random incident but that does not mean that the entire community can be painted in same color. Truth is some sections of American society do not want immigrants to work there and these articles are born from the same mindset. India is losing its caste based social norms as the years pass by much faster than America is losing Black are inferior mindset. Even political changes have come in India which has narrowed the caste lines to almost extinction.
- 42_ 6y ago
  This is a highly inaccurate comment. Caste lines are more alive than ever especially with the advent of social media.
  - thewhitetulip 6y ago
    Don't need to go to social media, just look at the number plates of the "upper class" folks They usually plaster their caste names on the bike or number plate
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thewhitetulip 6y ago
  Extinction??? Seriously?? I had two upper caste members in my Team. Both born after 1993. How did I know they're upper caste? They.always.reminded in every sentence "in us Rajputs" or "in us Bramhins" I have had 100s of member sin my team otherwise, some surnames which I've never heard before and yet I did not know their caste Also these upper caste folks make groups based on their castes. And they never let you forget which caste they belong to. Every single conversation has to mention what "kulcha" they have back at home. Caste system is reduced yes but it is not extinct. Easiest way to see is how Political parties. Check who their top leaders/ministers are except the token Affirmative action hire.
ur-whale 6y ago
https://archive.is/dOaAM https://archive.is/dOaAM
motohagiography 6y ago
It looks like hiring IIT dropouts over graduates would be an epic talent arbitrage opportunity. I didn't know about vegetarianism as a proxy for class purity, and I can see why high-caste Indians get so offended when I joke that growing up in my meat and potatoes family vegetarianism was treated with a kind of sympathy because they considered it an eating disorder, why some Indians found that so funny, and why I get along better with the people whose English isn't as refined. This extremely vulgar expression of privilege on my part mainly offends what we would call the petit bourgeois here, where working people tend to find the lack of pretense a relief. This is the horror of being middle class anywhere, because it's living with the fear of exposure that we aren't really all that different from the people we were raised to hate. Welcome, my Indian sisters and brothers! We are more alike than we ever knew. :)
phantom_oracle 6y ago
There's a long Wikipedia article that covers this topic entirely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India Some strange observations for me from the article: - There's 200M people in the world born into a life where they are/were considered physically untouchable by other "higher-ranked" people around them - The usage of the label "backwards" in “other backwards classes,” or OBCs. I'll chalk it down to English not being the native language, but "disadvantaged" is more appropriate as "backwards" has a negative meaning. I wonder if a better solution for the mental health of these people at the IITs is to simply have their own IIT where they make up the bulk of the student population. Then again, they might face discrimination by "upper-caste" professors refusing to work there or being "that" IIT that tech companies shouldn't hire from. To the Americans on HN: is this type of discrimination comparable to being born as an African American in a city like Baltimore?
- lazyninja987 6y ago
  how is it different from segregation ? personally, i am against it. we already have schools which only accept specific religion (muslims, christians) and cross religion interaction is sorely missing and causing a rift right from childhood. I have much easier solution which can eliminate caste altogether. When british was signing up Indians for indentured labor in Caribbean, British offered to give fresh set of identity (like witness protection in US) to anyone who agreed to go to Caribbean. every one chose brahmin surnames. When Indians finally arrived at Caribbean, all Indians were brahmins. when all are brahmins, being a brahmin stopped being special. Indian government should 1. give an option to change surnames. OR 2. stop recording first name/last name/family name in all official documents. 3. stop recording caste as part of aadhar/official census/all governement documents. if goal is to have a society with out discrimination, lets start doing it. that should push us towards a caste free society.
ak_25 6y ago
This podcast talks about this. Casteism is a disgusting remanent of Hinduism — the least someone can do is be AWARE of their privilege and ensure that they are inclusive and fair to their fellow citizens regardless of caste or race. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rough-translation/id1268047665?i=1000493141225 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rough-translation/id12...
AzzieElbab 6y ago
In all honesty, this issue was well known before the “Big Tech” existed. Anyone who worked with Indian call centres and outsourced devs/qa knew about it
shmde 6y ago
> "To fill those slots, universities sometimes offer seats to students with test scores below the cutoff point—though not as far below as is commonly assumed". General cutoff in 2015 ( my batch ) = 105 marks out of 360 Sc/st/marginalised group cutoff marks = 52.5 marks out of 360. Its literally cut to half and the author says its NOT as far below as is commonly assumed. There is still more to it. You would think that it benefits the SC/ST/marginalised group but the truth is the entrance exam is so tough that unless you are quite well to do to go to a coaching institute you wouldnt even crack it. The main benefit of the caste system in entrance test doesnt go to the poor rural area kids who come from lower caste but the kids from metro cities who are already pretty rich go to the big schools have a very good formal education and fortunately have a SC/ST/Caste card to present during exams. It feels like shit when you work and toil as hard as your dads colleague's son ( both of us have gone to the same school since we were kids, both of our dads earn the exact same ) and still end up in a bad college whereas the other kid with SC/ST/Quota card goes to a very good govt college. I scored a decent 140/360 and still got a worse rank and worse college than my friend who scored 100/360. I am all up for quota students who come from rural villages and dont have a good economic background but in reality its the rich metro sc/st/ kids who were already as privelaged as me who get it easy.
- pritambarhate 6y ago
  So you are unhappy because you couldn't get admission to a college. Now think about the unspeakable things millions of people from these backward classes had to endure for thousands of years. How much anger they must have felt. How much helplessness and self loathing they must have felt for not being able to do anything about it? Because they were told the God intended this life for them! It's not about the income level. It's about the social injustice those people have endured for all these ages. These reservations are nothing but a minor apology from our society to these communities.
  - shmde 6y ago
    Losing a better chance at education and possibly a better life and potentially making less money because companies values IIT/IIM/NIT tags as a minor apology to people who were already at the same economic playing field as me ? Naah, absolutely never. As I said I have absolutely NO objection/problem with SC/ST/OBC/single girl students getting a better shot at education through quota if they had an underpreviliged childhood because of financial difficulties and caste based discrimination. But guys from big cities going to the same coaching institutes coming from same economic background, having a privileged life playing the SC/ST/OBC card is just plain pathetic. This is not just "A MINOR APOLOGY" its something that can literally change the course of your life.
sadfev 6y ago
If you are an IITian and still casteist then something is wrong with you! Look IITians are often entitled, opinionated and in rare cases obnoxious. But never during my 5 years in IIT KGP, I have ever felt casteism among students and even amongst alumni after that. Initially during freshman year there’s a slight sense of resentment against quota (affirmative action for lower castes) students but all of that evaporates as quota and non-quota students alike progress. The whole point of getting advanced degrees is to shed the ignorance and discrimination and pursue what’s interesting, work with the brightest and of course make a better life for oneself. Being casteist and discriminatory doesn’t take anyone far in life. I really hope reports like these are media exaggerations and entitled casteist are very very few. I have worked my whole life to ascend over this garbage. I don’t want this stupid discourse to follow me now!
- thewhitetulip 6y ago
  You have a modern view of the world. You'll be surprised as I was back in the day that not everyone is open minded. Ppl still want to keep old systems in place because their parents have brain washed them into thinking that they're upper caste and that Hindu Khatre mein hai
  - 49yearsold 6y ago
    I come myself from middle class Brahmin family in Maharashtra, have a engineering degree from a mediocre school in Maharashtra. If at all I witnessed something negative is snobbishness from people who graduated from better school than me. I have been in silicon valley for over 25 years now. I worked in 2 startups and 4 mega corporations/public companies with friends/superiors/colleagues (some of whom are Brahmin IIT graduates) from various parts of India - I personally never asked anyone's last name to find their caste and neither I witnessed anyone making any derogatory remarks about anyone's caste/religion. I have never experienced or seen any of this that is being reported in this article. It is truly shameful and disgusting if it is happening now or before. Let's stop this right now and right away!
    - thewhitetulip 6y ago
swayvil 6y ago
What if you just lie and tell everybody you're Brahmin? Seems that would be a solution. Is that illegal?
- baytrailcat 6y ago
  This comment made me lol.. Not sure if you were just joking or you were unaware that case system is overlaid on racial/genetic subtleties of Indian subcontinent. Brahmin casts tend to be light skinned. For outsiders, all Indians are same, but believe me, there are subconscious clues a trained human mind (through upbringing, culture etc.) can pick up.
  - swayvil 6y ago
    Nordics probably read as superbrahmins.
    - higerordermap 6y ago
      This comment made me LoL but yes there's some steppe ancestry in Indians. But doesn't considerably vary among castes. I guess most of "upper castes" have something like 10% more steppe ancestry on average. Brahmins have established themselves as top because they were priestly caste and not the ancestry. (Indo European migration happened much before caste system formed).
Mountain_Skies 6y ago
This goes beyond just the Indian caste system. We're importing all kinds of historical grievances from around the globe. I worked for a consultancy in a regional tech hub on the East Coast. I thought it was odd that all of my fellow software engineers were from China or Taiwan. Turned out that the head of software engineering was Pakistani and refused to hire anyone from India. Since the company had a strong preference for H1B holders, there wasn't much an Indian candidate could do about it or even find out the reason why they were getting passed over. On three occasion he was given Indian employees due to acquisitions and in all three cases he quickly ran them off or had them laid off. What can be done about the above? Do racial discrimination laws even apply to the selection of H1B holders? The company was already getting away with favoring visa holders over citizens and permanent residents so there was no reason for them to fear not being able to get away with excluding Indian candidates due to our head of software engineering having a personal grudge against India. The only reason why I was hired was because they had a client with a need for someone with deep knowledge of Microware OS-9, which wasn't something they were able to find in their usual sources of employee candidates. Makes me wonder how many of these companies silently exist as black boxes that no one outside knows what discrimination is going on inside of them.
- bazooka_penguin 6y ago
  Reminds me of some of my Indian coworkers at a previous job suggesting muslims deserve, basically, genocide. Also, a lot shit talking Gandhi. A lot of people are bringing over their baggage and I think it's getting worse as companies, or at least business units in companies, become ethnic and cultural enclaves
bobosha 6y ago
Indian immigrant to US here (non IIT, but Brahmin). Although I personally haven't seen or noticed casteism in the Indian community here or back in India for that matter. Although there were just a few idiots ... but it could very well have been my brahmin privilege or perhaps my urban upbringing. I did notice a bit of persecution complex within Brahmins about "reservations" (India's affirmative action). But more alarmingly, nowadays anti-Muslim feelings are widespread and it's distressing to see that even in my immediate family. To my fellow Indian-Americans : we need to be adults and stop being so defensive about anything critical about our community. While we can be justifiably be proud of our community's success, but also need to be aware that we are also eminently capable of folly, and alert to some of the disturbing undercurrents in our community. I feel we absolutely need to take these charges seriously, just as we would sexism or racism in America.
- okpatil 6y ago
  Non-brahmin here. First question asked by my every new brahmin acquaintance was my surname. I think there were more than just a few idiots.
- DisjointedHunt 6y ago
  >Although I personally haven't seen or noticed casteism in the Indian community here or back in India for that matter. Have you not seen a single matrimonial advertisement in the US for members of the Indian community or back home in India? I find the statement perplexing having lived in India for a while and having professional relationships with many from the region.
  - bobosha 6y ago
    Matrimonials is a curious thing in India, it's not just caste, but it's the sub-sub-sub-caste that's often used as a filter. Most Indian marriages are arranged as you know... However, I didn't see any overt casteism, I would play and be best buds with people of other castes. With caste being somewhat akin to how Americans think of ancestry. AFAIK my parents and their colleagues never once brought caste into any of our interactions. But it could very well be my upper middle-class and urban upbringing and not representative.
connectsnk 6y ago
There are some fringe sections left in the society which are still practicing caste based discrimination. To get more clicks, news websites try to project this small minority as the truth of the whole nation.
penguin_booze 6y ago
This was also featured in Rough Translation: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/21/915299467/how-to-be-an-anti-casteist https://www.npr.org/2020/09/21/915299467/how-to-be-an-anti-c....
yumraj 6y ago
Dear Dang and YC: as someone who has been admonished in the past for not walking over eggshells while criticizing CCP, I’m genuinely surprised at the unchecked vitriol that is allowed in this thread against Brahmins, IITs, Indians, their culture and so on. Thank you!!
- bobosha 6y ago
  I disagree, while there are some unsavory comments, this thread is allowing sunlight into some bad aspects of the Indian-American subculture. We - I am Indian-American myself - need to be serious about such allegations and not get defensive.
  - yumraj 6y ago
    I’m not at all being defensive, merely pointing to the double standards.
    - bobosha 6y ago
      Again respectfully disagree. "double standards" is in the eye of the beholder. Barring some incendiary comments, this dialogue has been healthy & necessary. My 2c.
      - yumraj 6y ago
        Well, aren’t you making an assumption that my comments where I have been admonished were deserving and not similar in vein to the ones in this thread.
SuoDuanDao 6y ago
I've heard the opinion that India is the longest-running example of functioning multiculturalism in the world. Parts of the Indian system are no doubt simple remnants of earlier times that serve no purpose, but others are probably very necessary for the system's functioning, and I wonder whether caste might be one of those. At a glance, caste discrimination seems like it would in fact make it harder for the upper classes to exploit the lower past a certain point, as it makes people very aware of their own interests. Social mobility is a wonderful thing, but it can help arguments for policy that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor fly under the radar.
- naruvimama 6y ago
  "Caste" has a lot of political milage attached to it. So the divisions are used by politicians as well as the church. Infact the European origin of the word caste, shows you how far the narrative is from reality. People wanting to maintain a certain lifestyle is conflated with orthodoxy/discrimination. Forcing someone used to generations of vegetarianism to use the same kitchen where meat is served. Jains who follow ahimsa, do not want to rent out their homes to meat eaters. This is often labeled discriminatory, not by the Hindus themselves, but by the sjws.
thewileyone 6y ago
It's not just Silicon Valley. I've seen this in Singapore as well.
known 6y ago
Let us give Brahmin a separate country; They're just 3% in India; https://archive.is/VWFSC https://archive.is/VWFSC https://archive.is/h3TBP https://archive.is/h3TBP
naruvimama 6y ago
The big problem with atrocity literature is that one fails to see reality and fail to recognize the fast changing world. Jesus was a carpenter because his father was a carpenter. If Jesus's workshop burt down and he wanted to rebuild he can always depend on the carpenter community to help him out. Jesus wants to be part of the carpenter community as it serves him.
naruvimama 6y ago
People in the western world have family names like Smith, Goldsmith, Mason, Carpenter, Schumacher .... which connect them to their ancestral occupation In a poor country like India often people's occupation matches their family name. The only difference is that Indians recognized the social mobility problems at the time of framing the constitution. Social mobility is a problem that even a wealthy country like Germany faces. The fact that Indians recognize this and want to address it should not be ignored

200 points by known 6y ago

approxim8ion 6y ago

Prepare for serious astroturfing if this post gets any traction.

P_I_Staker 6y ago
How so?
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  There are swathes of Indians who consider it their responsibility to push back against any content that is critical of certain topics. Caste being one of them. Have a look at any of the past threads [1] [1]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=caste&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - P_I_Staker 6y ago
    I figured that's what you meant, but I'd rather it just be said. It wasn't clear what you were trying to say.
dang 6y ago
This comment breaks the site guidelines. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  My bad.

throwaway713 6y ago

I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?

doggodaddo78 6y ago
I could be wrong, but it seems like importing a system of arbitrary discrimination whereas America maybe viewed as some mythological, egalitarian land where the streets are paved in gold.
EdwardDiego 6y ago
I have a reasonable suspicion that people who have benefited from the caste system previously, will be favourable towards it still. What I'm curious about is, do they go OTT with it? I know for my country folk, something about moving overseas seems to compel us to wear All Black paraphernalia far more than we do home, and also, the drunken 3am hakas outside a kebab shop, far more commonly encountered overseas than in NZ itself.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  You can see this in the UK "community elders" will deny it but there are some nasty issues particularly untouchables. I know one of the MP's that helped add caste discrimination to the UK's legal system - this probably ought to be added to the US laws as well.
jtdev 6y ago
In India, you’re born into a socioeconomic position and the likelihood of ever moving upward in the socioeconomic structure is virtually zero. Those at the top of the socioeconomic structure treat those below them like complete shit.
- majjgepolja 6y ago

doggodaddo78 6y ago

Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I ejected from that heap. Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. Sunnyvale Costco is like an airport in Burma (okay, Myanmar), not because of race, culture, or ethnicity, but because of the predominant "fuck it" attitude: don't learn the customs, don't speak the language, don't put down roots, and don't interact with locals. There are perfectly nice, Americanized immigrants like a good fraction of the TiE folks but when you bring in a junior software engineer's extended family, you're getting a swath of average people too... and that's like moving a crowd of random Floridian Disneyland-goers in for a temporary extended stay. Also, I noticed how the offspring of the well-to-do from authoritarian countries act like, or even worse than, drunk American college students in the rest of the world. For example, I noticed mainland PRC kids pointing, laughing, harassing, and taking poverty porn pictures of homeless people in Palo Alto.

marcinzm 6y ago
>failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin I mean, have you seen the waiting times for Indian US green cards? You may literally die of old age before getting through the queue right now. The system is structured to make them disposable temporary workers and not future American citizens. So why is it surprising that they act like it?
- doggodaddo78 6y ago
  It's a fucked-up system that perpetuates fetishization of a "golden Willy Wonka ticket" in order to mint underpaid workers on a leash. I've seen such tech workers make 3-10% of equivalent native salaries, and live in appalling group housing conditions to save money. (TCS, anyone?) There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    >There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is. I mean, sure there is, people just don't want to fix it for various reasons. For example, reform the H1B and Green Card processes. Make the H1B an actual path to a green card and citizenship which most people seem to want nowadays. Cap H1Bs per nation (so there's a clear concise path to citizenship if you're in the US) rather than Green Cards or increase the Green Card caps. Blaming the people who are trying to make a better life for themselves by working within the system that those more wealthy than them have set up just seems very silly to me. Blame those who setup the system instead.

akimball 6y ago

Paywalled content is effectively marketing spam, is it not?

andrew_ 6y ago
Disable JS and read freely

srameshc 6y ago

I once was volunteering at an event. I was having a causal conversation with another guy and after a while he asked me my last name and decided to not indulge in any further conversation anymore. This is one of many instances I experienced. There is a paper about caste oppression. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3725938 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3725938

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
Thank you for sharing this. While it is apparent that US job market is not a meritocracy, it simply cannot allow ( hell, afford ) to import bad practices from afar.
- iamshs 6y ago
  It is already in US and is being defended by Hindu organizations with reason like - ‘Caste discrimination is a Hindu right that should go unchallenged’ https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261 https://twitter.com/YashicaDutt/status/1369314943061856261
  - ashneo76 6y ago
    As a Hindu, I am ashamed. I am glad to not be part of any such orgs. This is despicable. US cannot afford to continue this.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The tweet does not substantiate its claims, at least not that I can see due to the source being paywalled.
  - naravara 6y ago
    That sounds like an uncharitable interpretation of what HAF said, but I can't verify because they never link to the source statement and the article she points at is behind a paywall. Come to think of it this "Attribute quotes to people and then say 'read the (paywalled) article' when someone asks for context" strategy seems like a pretty good way to spread misinformation. Edit: Okay did some googling and found the source statement. That tweet is definitely a very bad faith misreading of HAF's statement which says: > In its complaint, California argues that Cisco failed to address discrimination against one of its engineers by co-workers on the basis of his presumed caste. California goes on to state that caste is “a strict Hindu social and religious hierarchy” and therefore an integral part of Hindu teachings and practices. Framing its argument in this way, California is attempting to do what the Constitution clearly says it cannot, HAF said: defining Hindu religious doctrine for Hindus. In other words, HAF isn't saying discrimination is a Hindu right. They're saying it's inappropriate for US Courts to define what constitutes "Hindu belief systems." This sounds appropriate since setting precedent in a court that defines anyone who professes belief in Hinduism as being casteist a priori would basically be opening the door to religious discrimination.

OliverJones 6y ago

A story. A few years back I worked with an Indian team of developers and testers. They did a great job. Their lead was an IIT graduate. They have two managing partners; one is a secular Hindu and the other a practicing Muslim. Multicultural they are. I went to visit them once. (Always a good idea to personally get to know people who work on your stuff!) They're in Odisha, in the east of India. I asked the group, over lunch, about the caste system. Everybody agreed that it was a thing of the past and a historical shame. But, later, each team member found a private way to tell me they came from Brahmin (top caste) families. It was really interesting to see how it played out. Is it possible that human nature relentlessly drives us to this sort of tribalism? It shows up as racism in the western hemisphere, the caste system in India, the class system in England and their former colonies, and so forth. At any rate, resisting this tribalism is hard work. But do that work we must. It's helpful to this westerner to learn about the caste system. I suppose it's equally helpful to people from India to learn about American racism.

WillSlim95 6y ago
Not surprised my folks are from the same region and they behave exactly like that. I have heard enough relatives mention SC/ST as a term of derision and simultaneously discussing with other people talk as if the system is dead.
iamshs 6y ago
Racism and caste endogamy is very different... caste is violence given stamp of approval through religion, you cannot escape it. Dalits are beheaded for wearing turban, riding a horse, taking their marriage procession from upper caste street. Moreover, it has present day support of the system in India. Hindu saint who classified the castes through his treatise, Manu Smriti, finds his statue in front of Rajasthan High Court. News from today: Woman married a lower-caste guy, eloped, families lodged missing person complaint in Police, Police found the married couple and handed them over to their families. Woman's brother beheads his brother-in-law, sister hangs herself. https://twitter.com/ShoaibDaniyal/status/1370344548535177216 https://twitter.com/ShoaibDaniyal/status/1370344548535177216
- 6y ago

throwaway123x2 6y ago

Does caste matter for Muslims and Christians in India?

bluGill 6y ago
Yes, but how much depends. If you are part of a tiny sect it matters not at all, the others in your new group are happy to have anyone. If you are part of a very large sect then there is a need to divide into smaller groups because a person can only have so many friends and caste is an the fallback to divide on. Most people have family of other religion, and so they often do something about family. Sometimes that means other-cast friends in the religion are kept apart from family, sometimes it means they are thrown in the face of family as a way to show how different they are. I know more about Christian practice than Muslims. I suspect the same logic applies but I'm not sure.
lazyninja987 6y ago
go to www.christianmatrimony.com and sign up. one of the data point they ask 'caste preference'. caste is a social nuisance, not a religious one.
pradn 6y ago
Yes, among Muslims, Christians, and Sikhs. Watch a minute of video here to see examples: https://youtu.be/ZPmAltGay3s?t=1965 https://youtu.be/ZPmAltGay3s?t=1965
- throwaway123x2 6y ago
  Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

cmdshiftf4 6y ago

>This is something torontonians have gotten over ages ago. Bad example. Canada is a globalist punching bag and their behaviour isn't indicative of a country that has grown but one that has merely submitted. I lived in Toronto for a couple of years and even at that point most of the people I met who were born and bred there were hauling ass out of the city to places like Barrie, Burlington or other provinces entirely. What's left is a city full of people with little ties to the place and with little in common beyond being "fans" of manufactured "Canadian" MLSE teams and a love for consuming mainly American media, American brands and American social issues. It's a soulless husk of a city and one that should serve as an example to others of what not to let your home descend to.

lhorie 6y ago
I lived in Toronto for well over a decade. Perhaps this is a irreconcilable difference of opinion, but what you call a "globalist punching bag" is also affectionately called a melting pot. What you call a manufactured husk is also called diverse vibrant city. Beauty is in eye of the beholder, I guess. Toronto has one of the best culinary scenes I've ever seen, and a lot of character if you know where to look ("little X" towns are microcosmos of their own) I'm not sure if you're implying the city should belong to Caucasians, but as far a the "little ties" remark goes, I disagree. Lots and lots of international folks settle down permanently in the GTA and surrounding towns.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >what you call a "globalist punching bag" is also affectionately called a melting pot. Toronto is explicitly not a melting pot. Trudeau and others have been explicit in describing Canada (and Toronto) as being a mosaic of cultures, or a patchwork, or quilt, and not the melting pot that America touts itself to be. Canada's migration policies are one facet of my labelling it a globalist punching bag, among many, but certainly not isolated to it and mainly due to the motivations behind it. The rest of your post is literal memes and shallow accusations of racism and as such isn't worth addressing.
  - 6y ago

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cies 6y ago

Happy to've seen a picture of B.R. Ambedkar. Not Indian but major respect for this man!

apexkid 6y ago

This article is as bullshit at it can get with no proof and random catch phrases on the lines of "ohh blacks are hated in America". Truth is, there is absolutely no place for cast in any top Indian engineering colleges. Millennials and GenZ does not give a single fuck to what the cast of a person is. That too in IITs were 90% students come from middle or poor class of society and have similar lifestyle. There can always be one random incident but that does not mean that the entire community can be painted in same color. Truth is some sections of American society do not want immigrants to work there and these articles are born from the same mindset. India is losing its caste based social norms as the years pass by much faster than America is losing Black are inferior mindset. Even political changes have come in India which has narrowed the caste lines to almost extinction.

42_ 6y ago
This is a highly inaccurate comment. Caste lines are more alive than ever especially with the advent of social media.
- thewhitetulip 6y ago
  Don't need to go to social media, just look at the number plates of the "upper class" folks They usually plaster their caste names on the bike or number plate
deleted 6y ago
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thewhitetulip 6y ago
Extinction??? Seriously?? I had two upper caste members in my Team. Both born after 1993. How did I know they're upper caste? They.always.reminded in every sentence "in us Rajputs" or "in us Bramhins" I have had 100s of member sin my team otherwise, some surnames which I've never heard before and yet I did not know their caste Also these upper caste folks make groups based on their castes. And they never let you forget which caste they belong to. Every single conversation has to mention what "kulcha" they have back at home. Caste system is reduced yes but it is not extinct. Easiest way to see is how Political parties. Check who their top leaders/ministers are except the token Affirmative action hire.

ur-whale 6y ago

https://archive.is/dOaAM https://archive.is/dOaAM

motohagiography 6y ago

It looks like hiring IIT dropouts over graduates would be an epic talent arbitrage opportunity. I didn't know about vegetarianism as a proxy for class purity, and I can see why high-caste Indians get so offended when I joke that growing up in my meat and potatoes family vegetarianism was treated with a kind of sympathy because they considered it an eating disorder, why some Indians found that so funny, and why I get along better with the people whose English isn't as refined. This extremely vulgar expression of privilege on my part mainly offends what we would call the petit bourgeois here, where working people tend to find the lack of pretense a relief. This is the horror of being middle class anywhere, because it's living with the fear of exposure that we aren't really all that different from the people we were raised to hate. Welcome, my Indian sisters and brothers! We are more alike than we ever knew. :)

phantom_oracle 6y ago

There's a long Wikipedia article that covers this topic entirely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India Some strange observations for me from the article: - There's 200M people in the world born into a life where they are/were considered physically untouchable by other "higher-ranked" people around them - The usage of the label "backwards" in “other backwards classes,” or OBCs. I'll chalk it down to English not being the native language, but "disadvantaged" is more appropriate as "backwards" has a negative meaning. I wonder if a better solution for the mental health of these people at the IITs is to simply have their own IIT where they make up the bulk of the student population. Then again, they might face discrimination by "upper-caste" professors refusing to work there or being "that" IIT that tech companies shouldn't hire from. To the Americans on HN: is this type of discrimination comparable to being born as an African American in a city like Baltimore?

lazyninja987 6y ago
how is it different from segregation ? personally, i am against it. we already have schools which only accept specific religion (muslims, christians) and cross religion interaction is sorely missing and causing a rift right from childhood. I have much easier solution which can eliminate caste altogether. When british was signing up Indians for indentured labor in Caribbean, British offered to give fresh set of identity (like witness protection in US) to anyone who agreed to go to Caribbean. every one chose brahmin surnames. When Indians finally arrived at Caribbean, all Indians were brahmins. when all are brahmins, being a brahmin stopped being special. Indian government should 1. give an option to change surnames. OR 2. stop recording first name/last name/family name in all official documents. 3. stop recording caste as part of aadhar/official census/all governement documents. if goal is to have a society with out discrimination, lets start doing it. that should push us towards a caste free society.

ak_25 6y ago

This podcast talks about this. Casteism is a disgusting remanent of Hinduism — the least someone can do is be AWARE of their privilege and ensure that they are inclusive and fair to their fellow citizens regardless of caste or race. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rough-translation/id1268047665?i=1000493141225 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rough-translation/id12...

AzzieElbab 6y ago

In all honesty, this issue was well known before the “Big Tech” existed. Anyone who worked with Indian call centres and outsourced devs/qa knew about it

shmde 6y ago

> "To fill those slots, universities sometimes offer seats to students with test scores below the cutoff point—though not as far below as is commonly assumed". General cutoff in 2015 ( my batch ) = 105 marks out of 360 Sc/st/marginalised group cutoff marks = 52.5 marks out of 360. Its literally cut to half and the author says its NOT as far below as is commonly assumed. There is still more to it. You would think that it benefits the SC/ST/marginalised group but the truth is the entrance exam is so tough that unless you are quite well to do to go to a coaching institute you wouldnt even crack it. The main benefit of the caste system in entrance test doesnt go to the poor rural area kids who come from lower caste but the kids from metro cities who are already pretty rich go to the big schools have a very good formal education and fortunately have a SC/ST/Caste card to present during exams. It feels like shit when you work and toil as hard as your dads colleague's son ( both of us have gone to the same school since we were kids, both of our dads earn the exact same ) and still end up in a bad college whereas the other kid with SC/ST/Quota card goes to a very good govt college. I scored a decent 140/360 and still got a worse rank and worse college than my friend who scored 100/360. I am all up for quota students who come from rural villages and dont have a good economic background but in reality its the rich metro sc/st/ kids who were already as privelaged as me who get it easy.

pritambarhate 6y ago
So you are unhappy because you couldn't get admission to a college. Now think about the unspeakable things millions of people from these backward classes had to endure for thousands of years. How much anger they must have felt. How much helplessness and self loathing they must have felt for not being able to do anything about it? Because they were told the God intended this life for them! It's not about the income level. It's about the social injustice those people have endured for all these ages. These reservations are nothing but a minor apology from our society to these communities.
- shmde 6y ago
  Losing a better chance at education and possibly a better life and potentially making less money because companies values IIT/IIM/NIT tags as a minor apology to people who were already at the same economic playing field as me ? Naah, absolutely never. As I said I have absolutely NO objection/problem with SC/ST/OBC/single girl students getting a better shot at education through quota if they had an underpreviliged childhood because of financial difficulties and caste based discrimination. But guys from big cities going to the same coaching institutes coming from same economic background, having a privileged life playing the SC/ST/OBC card is just plain pathetic. This is not just "A MINOR APOLOGY" its something that can literally change the course of your life.

sadfev 6y ago

If you are an IITian and still casteist then something is wrong with you! Look IITians are often entitled, opinionated and in rare cases obnoxious. But never during my 5 years in IIT KGP, I have ever felt casteism among students and even amongst alumni after that. Initially during freshman year there’s a slight sense of resentment against quota (affirmative action for lower castes) students but all of that evaporates as quota and non-quota students alike progress. The whole point of getting advanced degrees is to shed the ignorance and discrimination and pursue what’s interesting, work with the brightest and of course make a better life for oneself. Being casteist and discriminatory doesn’t take anyone far in life. I really hope reports like these are media exaggerations and entitled casteist are very very few. I have worked my whole life to ascend over this garbage. I don’t want this stupid discourse to follow me now!

thewhitetulip 6y ago
You have a modern view of the world. You'll be surprised as I was back in the day that not everyone is open minded. Ppl still want to keep old systems in place because their parents have brain washed them into thinking that they're upper caste and that Hindu Khatre mein hai
- 49yearsold 6y ago
  I come myself from middle class Brahmin family in Maharashtra, have a engineering degree from a mediocre school in Maharashtra. If at all I witnessed something negative is snobbishness from people who graduated from better school than me. I have been in silicon valley for over 25 years now. I worked in 2 startups and 4 mega corporations/public companies with friends/superiors/colleagues (some of whom are Brahmin IIT graduates) from various parts of India - I personally never asked anyone's last name to find their caste and neither I witnessed anyone making any derogatory remarks about anyone's caste/religion. I have never experienced or seen any of this that is being reported in this article. It is truly shameful and disgusting if it is happening now or before. Let's stop this right now and right away!
  - thewhitetulip 6y ago

swayvil 6y ago

What if you just lie and tell everybody you're Brahmin? Seems that would be a solution. Is that illegal?

baytrailcat 6y ago
This comment made me lol.. Not sure if you were just joking or you were unaware that case system is overlaid on racial/genetic subtleties of Indian subcontinent. Brahmin casts tend to be light skinned. For outsiders, all Indians are same, but believe me, there are subconscious clues a trained human mind (through upbringing, culture etc.) can pick up.
- swayvil 6y ago
  Nordics probably read as superbrahmins.
  - higerordermap 6y ago
    This comment made me LoL but yes there's some steppe ancestry in Indians. But doesn't considerably vary among castes. I guess most of "upper castes" have something like 10% more steppe ancestry on average. Brahmins have established themselves as top because they were priestly caste and not the ancestry. (Indo European migration happened much before caste system formed).

Mountain_Skies 6y ago

This goes beyond just the Indian caste system. We're importing all kinds of historical grievances from around the globe. I worked for a consultancy in a regional tech hub on the East Coast. I thought it was odd that all of my fellow software engineers were from China or Taiwan. Turned out that the head of software engineering was Pakistani and refused to hire anyone from India. Since the company had a strong preference for H1B holders, there wasn't much an Indian candidate could do about it or even find out the reason why they were getting passed over. On three occasion he was given Indian employees due to acquisitions and in all three cases he quickly ran them off or had them laid off. What can be done about the above? Do racial discrimination laws even apply to the selection of H1B holders? The company was already getting away with favoring visa holders over citizens and permanent residents so there was no reason for them to fear not being able to get away with excluding Indian candidates due to our head of software engineering having a personal grudge against India. The only reason why I was hired was because they had a client with a need for someone with deep knowledge of Microware OS-9, which wasn't something they were able to find in their usual sources of employee candidates. Makes me wonder how many of these companies silently exist as black boxes that no one outside knows what discrimination is going on inside of them.

bazooka_penguin 6y ago
Reminds me of some of my Indian coworkers at a previous job suggesting muslims deserve, basically, genocide. Also, a lot shit talking Gandhi. A lot of people are bringing over their baggage and I think it's getting worse as companies, or at least business units in companies, become ethnic and cultural enclaves

bobosha 6y ago

Indian immigrant to US here (non IIT, but Brahmin). Although I personally haven't seen or noticed casteism in the Indian community here or back in India for that matter. Although there were just a few idiots ... but it could very well have been my brahmin privilege or perhaps my urban upbringing. I did notice a bit of persecution complex within Brahmins about "reservations" (India's affirmative action). But more alarmingly, nowadays anti-Muslim feelings are widespread and it's distressing to see that even in my immediate family. To my fellow Indian-Americans : we need to be adults and stop being so defensive about anything critical about our community. While we can be justifiably be proud of our community's success, but also need to be aware that we are also eminently capable of folly, and alert to some of the disturbing undercurrents in our community. I feel we absolutely need to take these charges seriously, just as we would sexism or racism in America.

okpatil 6y ago
Non-brahmin here. First question asked by my every new brahmin acquaintance was my surname. I think there were more than just a few idiots.
DisjointedHunt 6y ago
>Although I personally haven't seen or noticed casteism in the Indian community here or back in India for that matter. Have you not seen a single matrimonial advertisement in the US for members of the Indian community or back home in India? I find the statement perplexing having lived in India for a while and having professional relationships with many from the region.
- bobosha 6y ago
  Matrimonials is a curious thing in India, it's not just caste, but it's the sub-sub-sub-caste that's often used as a filter. Most Indian marriages are arranged as you know... However, I didn't see any overt casteism, I would play and be best buds with people of other castes. With caste being somewhat akin to how Americans think of ancestry. AFAIK my parents and their colleagues never once brought caste into any of our interactions. But it could very well be my upper middle-class and urban upbringing and not representative.

connectsnk 6y ago

There are some fringe sections left in the society which are still practicing caste based discrimination. To get more clicks, news websites try to project this small minority as the truth of the whole nation.

penguin_booze 6y ago

This was also featured in Rough Translation: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/21/915299467/how-to-be-an-anti-casteist https://www.npr.org/2020/09/21/915299467/how-to-be-an-anti-c....

yumraj 6y ago

Dear Dang and YC: as someone who has been admonished in the past for not walking over eggshells while criticizing CCP, I’m genuinely surprised at the unchecked vitriol that is allowed in this thread against Brahmins, IITs, Indians, their culture and so on. Thank you!!

bobosha 6y ago
I disagree, while there are some unsavory comments, this thread is allowing sunlight into some bad aspects of the Indian-American subculture. We - I am Indian-American myself - need to be serious about such allegations and not get defensive.
- yumraj 6y ago
  I’m not at all being defensive, merely pointing to the double standards.
  - bobosha 6y ago
    Again respectfully disagree. "double standards" is in the eye of the beholder. Barring some incendiary comments, this dialogue has been healthy & necessary. My 2c.
    - yumraj 6y ago
      Well, aren’t you making an assumption that my comments where I have been admonished were deserving and not similar in vein to the ones in this thread.

SuoDuanDao 6y ago

I've heard the opinion that India is the longest-running example of functioning multiculturalism in the world. Parts of the Indian system are no doubt simple remnants of earlier times that serve no purpose, but others are probably very necessary for the system's functioning, and I wonder whether caste might be one of those. At a glance, caste discrimination seems like it would in fact make it harder for the upper classes to exploit the lower past a certain point, as it makes people very aware of their own interests. Social mobility is a wonderful thing, but it can help arguments for policy that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor fly under the radar.

naruvimama 6y ago
"Caste" has a lot of political milage attached to it. So the divisions are used by politicians as well as the church. Infact the European origin of the word caste, shows you how far the narrative is from reality. People wanting to maintain a certain lifestyle is conflated with orthodoxy/discrimination. Forcing someone used to generations of vegetarianism to use the same kitchen where meat is served. Jains who follow ahimsa, do not want to rent out their homes to meat eaters. This is often labeled discriminatory, not by the Hindus themselves, but by the sjws.

thewileyone 6y ago

It's not just Silicon Valley. I've seen this in Singapore as well.

known 6y ago

Let us give Brahmin a separate country; They're just 3% in India; https://archive.is/VWFSC https://archive.is/VWFSC https://archive.is/h3TBP https://archive.is/h3TBP

naruvimama 6y ago

The big problem with atrocity literature is that one fails to see reality and fail to recognize the fast changing world. Jesus was a carpenter because his father was a carpenter. If Jesus's workshop burt down and he wanted to rebuild he can always depend on the carpenter community to help him out. Jesus wants to be part of the carpenter community as it serves him.

naruvimama 6y ago

People in the western world have family names like Smith, Goldsmith, Mason, Carpenter, Schumacher .... which connect them to their ancestral occupation In a poor country like India often people's occupation matches their family name. The only difference is that Indians recognized the social mobility problems at the time of framing the constitution. Social mobility is a problem that even a wealthy country like Germany faces. The fact that Indians recognize this and want to address it should not be ignored