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How does the network protocol of bitcoin work? Would governments be able to block it? Can it be DDoS-ed?

by Jonnax 6y ago

mrweasel 6y ago
Without knowing for sure, I think you could just block port 8333. The individual miners could surely be DDoS, if you know their IP. I wonder if it's possible to just generate junk transactions and throw them at miners.
- rand49an 6y ago
  That would close things off for most nodes but there are lots of nodes running on Tor or custom ports. Not to mention other channels like satellites that are used for transaction distribution. Junk transactions could stop a few nodes but all transactions are verified locally on nodes and won't be broadcast if they turn out to be junk.
Nextgrid 6y ago
You can probably fingerprint the protocol and block it, but then it will just turn into a game of cat and mouse.
viraptor 6y ago
They can't realistically block it. Normally the miners are trivial "structure in, best hash out" functions. The logic of choosing the transactions and preparing new blocks can be completely independent and distribute the work over any number of remote miners. (That's pretty much how mining pools work) The network transport would be trivial to change, or tunnel over (for example) SSH. DoS also wouldn't be likely - if you have power to do that and can identify the connection, you're likely to have access to the physical address.
- postalrat 6y ago
  Find where a lot of power is used. Go in with guns.
  - DINKDINK 6y ago
    What's your expectation for how effective that would be? Let's compare some existing bans, say prohibited cannabis farming: * Large energy use (lights, fans, pumps?) * Very characteristic energy use (high, relatively invariant) * Massive government budgets/surveillance to attack producers * The need to move non negligible amounts of physical goods * Moral campaigns by governments and social groups that it's bad for society And yet the banned-market drug trade revenue is something on the order of 80 billion dollars per year or 220 million a year. Bitcoin miners, currently: * Large energy use (fans, HVAC, ASICs) * Very characteristic energy use (high, relatively invariant) * Mix of jurisdictions banning or allowing it. * Only need about 2G / Shortwave radio worth of bandwidth to produce blocks * Moral campaigns by governments and social groups that it's bad for society Miner revenues need to be on the order of 10-50 million USD per year to sustain themselves. That's almost 10 times less than the failed (relatively global) "war on drugs" Add to it that by defecting from national socialist forms of storing one's wealth, rather than just momentarily indulging in vice, one improves their position, I'd suspect your hypothetical ban won't work that well.
    - postalrat 6y ago
      How many orders of magnitude more power do crypto miners require vs. cannabis farmers? I don't think you get to say they are equally 'large energy use'.
charcircuit 6y ago
It's a custom unencrypted P2P network protocol. A government could detect someone using this protocol and block it. It technically can not be DDoS'd. Though if you were you could DDoS the bootstrap nodes and that would make it harder to join the network. If governments block communication it can cause the network to split making it unclear which "half" of the network is the real one. It would create a fork.
csomar 6y ago
They can't. You only need around 1mb/minute bandwidth to be able to operate. Changing ports can be easily circumvented by using a proxy. It's much easier to detect the guy who is drawing all this electricity.
dgellow 6y ago
Governments can regulate at the edge: - regulate electricity consumption - regulate bank accepting crypto-related money - regulate exchanges listing Bitcoin or other crypto-currencies, etc
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  This is why distributed exchanges and DeFi are important, as they eliminate the last two problems.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    I wasn't listing problems but ways governments can regulate crypto-currencies even if the network itself is out of reach. I'm myself in favor of cryptocurrencies (though, definitely not Bitcoin) AND for some level of regulation.
mclightning 6y ago
something size of a government could do a %51 attack on the whole network.
kpommerenke 6y ago
Yes, governments can take Bitcoin down: https://joekelly100.medium.com/how-to-kill-bitcoin-part-1-is-bitcoin-unstoppable-code-7a1b366f65ee https://joekelly100.medium.com/how-to-kill-bitcoin-part-1-is...
fredfoobar 6y ago
You're asking this, in 2021?
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Would governments be able to block it? Deep packet inspect the network, raid current users and miners, then degrade the network for a few months for everyone. After that, random enforcement. Incentivise by letting police privately seize Bitcoin from the populace. The idea that a protocol is immune to state violence because it can be sneaky is absurd.
- silentsea90 6y ago
  I think the slowness of BTC adoption and growth are its strength. Within a decade, BTC investors will reach the highest offices of decision making bodies, and will be wealthy enough to shape the future of policy
silentsea90 6y ago
The slowness of BTC adoption and growth are its strength. Within a decade, BTC investors will reach the highest offices of decision making bodies, and will be wealthy enough to shape the future of policy. States bodies will adapt not compete, similar to how they've adapted to the internet.

How does the network protocol of bitcoin work? Would governments be able to block it? Can it be DDoS-ed?

by Jonnax 6y ago

How does the network protocol of bitcoin work? Would governments be able to block it? Can it be DDoS-ed?

Without knowing for sure, I think you could just block port 8333. The individual miners could surely be DDoS, if you know their IP. I wonder if it's possible to just generate junk transactions and throw them at miners.

rand49an 6y ago
That would close things off for most nodes but there are lots of nodes running on Tor or custom ports. Not to mention other channels like satellites that are used for transaction distribution. Junk transactions could stop a few nodes but all transactions are verified locally on nodes and won't be broadcast if they turn out to be junk.

Nextgrid 6y ago

You can probably fingerprint the protocol and block it, but then it will just turn into a game of cat and mouse.

viraptor 6y ago

They can't realistically block it. Normally the miners are trivial "structure in, best hash out" functions. The logic of choosing the transactions and preparing new blocks can be completely independent and distribute the work over any number of remote miners. (That's pretty much how mining pools work) The network transport would be trivial to change, or tunnel over (for example) SSH. DoS also wouldn't be likely - if you have power to do that and can identify the connection, you're likely to have access to the physical address.

postalrat 6y ago
Find where a lot of power is used. Go in with guns.
- DINKDINK 6y ago
  What's your expectation for how effective that would be? Let's compare some existing bans, say prohibited cannabis farming: * Large energy use (lights, fans, pumps?) * Very characteristic energy use (high, relatively invariant) * Massive government budgets/surveillance to attack producers * The need to move non negligible amounts of physical goods * Moral campaigns by governments and social groups that it's bad for society And yet the banned-market drug trade revenue is something on the order of 80 billion dollars per year or 220 million a year. Bitcoin miners, currently: * Large energy use (fans, HVAC, ASICs) * Very characteristic energy use (high, relatively invariant) * Mix of jurisdictions banning or allowing it. * Only need about 2G / Shortwave radio worth of bandwidth to produce blocks * Moral campaigns by governments and social groups that it's bad for society Miner revenues need to be on the order of 10-50 million USD per year to sustain themselves. That's almost 10 times less than the failed (relatively global) "war on drugs" Add to it that by defecting from national socialist forms of storing one's wealth, rather than just momentarily indulging in vice, one improves their position, I'd suspect your hypothetical ban won't work that well.
  - postalrat 6y ago
    How many orders of magnitude more power do crypto miners require vs. cannabis farmers? I don't think you get to say they are equally 'large energy use'.

charcircuit 6y ago

It's a custom unencrypted P2P network protocol. A government could detect someone using this protocol and block it. It technically can not be DDoS'd. Though if you were you could DDoS the bootstrap nodes and that would make it harder to join the network. If governments block communication it can cause the network to split making it unclear which "half" of the network is the real one. It would create a fork.

csomar 6y ago

They can't. You only need around 1mb/minute bandwidth to be able to operate. Changing ports can be easily circumvented by using a proxy. It's much easier to detect the guy who is drawing all this electricity.

dgellow 6y ago

Governments can regulate at the edge: - regulate electricity consumption - regulate bank accepting crypto-related money - regulate exchanges listing Bitcoin or other crypto-currencies, etc

solosoyokaze 6y ago
This is why distributed exchanges and DeFi are important, as they eliminate the last two problems.
- dgellow 6y ago
  I wasn't listing problems but ways governments can regulate crypto-currencies even if the network itself is out of reach. I'm myself in favor of cryptocurrencies (though, definitely not Bitcoin) AND for some level of regulation.

mclightning 6y ago

something size of a government could do a %51 attack on the whole network.

kpommerenke 6y ago

Yes, governments can take Bitcoin down: https://joekelly100.medium.com/how-to-kill-bitcoin-part-1-is-bitcoin-unstoppable-code-7a1b366f65ee https://joekelly100.medium.com/how-to-kill-bitcoin-part-1-is...

fredfoobar 6y ago

You're asking this, in 2021?

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> Would governments be able to block it? Deep packet inspect the network, raid current users and miners, then degrade the network for a few months for everyone. After that, random enforcement. Incentivise by letting police privately seize Bitcoin from the populace. The idea that a protocol is immune to state violence because it can be sneaky is absurd.

silentsea90 6y ago
I think the slowness of BTC adoption and growth are its strength. Within a decade, BTC investors will reach the highest offices of decision making bodies, and will be wealthy enough to shape the future of policy

silentsea90 6y ago

The slowness of BTC adoption and growth are its strength. Within a decade, BTC investors will reach the highest offices of decision making bodies, and will be wealthy enough to shape the future of policy. States bodies will adapt not compete, similar to how they've adapted to the internet.