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What the left also needs is a realization that some of its beliefs are akin to extremism. And some of the left inspired policies have really really hurt and iso

What the left also needs is a realization that some of its beliefs are akin to extremism. And some of the left inspired policies have really really hurt and isolated a significant population. The left needs to soften it's stand on such issues.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
What the right also needs is a realization that some of its beliefs are akin to extremism. And some of the right inspired policies have really really hurt and isolated a significant population. The right needs to soften it's stand on such issues. It's such a generic statement that it's meaningless and could apply to any group of opinions.
- NaturalPhallacy 6y ago
  Doesn't mean it's wrong... The racists on the right know they're racists. They admit it. The racists I've encountered on the left are the racism-of-low-expectations kind with a dash of openly-racist-against-white-people, and then they go and act morally superior to people who aren't racist against any race. The sanctimony is grating.
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    Really? Where? Usually I've seen forms like this "I strongly believe in (basic description of X)" "You know that's X, right?!" "I'm not X" "Alright, would you say you believe in (wikipedias first paragraph on X)?" "Oh yes! You really understand!" "You know I just lifted that from wikipedia article on X" "Let me hear it again. Ok, that's not exactly right." Etc... Try it yourself next time, it's pretty remarkable. They're not acting in bad faith or trying to deceive. It's like an addict who believes they smoke cigarettes not because they have an addiction but because they enjoy the taste. Most people want to believe they've made the right decisions (https://grist.org/article/80-percent-of-humans-are-delusionally-optimistic-says-science/ https://grist.org/article/80-percent-of-humans-are-delusiona...). They think racism is wrong so therefore their beliefs can't be racist.
    - tired-dev 6y ago
      Exactly. Racists will generally justify themselves as "not racist" by giving claiming something to the tune of "I'm not prejudiced, I just agree with the numbers!", while appealing to some out-of-context statistic to try and act like those disagreeing with them are "denying science" by acknowledging that there's more nuance to the issue.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    Don't they deny being racist, sexist or whatever more often than not when called out? It sure seems so.
    - NaturalPhallacy 6y ago
      I'm not even sure if you're talking about the racist left or the racist right and that is mildly amusing. I don't know a lot (any?) racist right folks, but I know a shitload of racist left and they ALL publicly, verbally, in writing, rail against racism in one breath, and then shit on white people in the next. I acknowledge that this is anecdotal, but still...
      - hef19898 6y ago
        There is no racism against white people in the, what, northern hemisphere. And never was. In that part of the world, racism comes from the white population and is aimed at others. Calling white racists out definitely isn't racism.
        Huwyt_Nashi030 6y ago
        Thankyou for your service, accelerationist.
        arthurcolle 6y ago
        Racism is literally defined as discrimination against any singular group based on race or ethnic group. Discrimination, irrespective of its origin on the left or right wing of the spectrum, should be treated identically. Implicit and explicit racial discrimination is omnipresent on both sides of the spectrum. This is evidenced by literally pulling up any of the popular social justice warrior channels on YouTube; you then immediately come in contact with it. It is farcical for anyone to push through a narrative that doesn't acknowledge this fact. "White male" has become a demeaning putdown by many enthusiastic liberals, which is evidence enough. Enough.
        hef19898 6y ago
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    > The racists on the right know they're racists. They admit it. Not necessarily. Even Richard Spencer, proud Hitler-saluting Neo-Nazi, essentially the founder of the "alt-right", denies being racist. People know that racism is bad, but a lot of racists will deny being racist while very explicitly saying they don't want to live next to a black person or will call the police just because they saw a black man walking through the neighborhood.
    - kodah 6y ago
      That's not really true. He's definitely claimed to be some flavor of racist on that documentary on Netflix.
      - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
        I don't remember where I saw it, and I'm struggling to find it now, but there was some interview where he explicitly claims to not be racist and claims to not hate black people, and even claims to not be a white supremacist, but that he merely believes that the races shouldn't mix and that America should be a white ethno-state. He knows that racism is not socially acceptable, so he makes bad faith claims of not being racist while expressing obviously racist views. And the problem is, it works. It doesn't take much searching to find racists that don't think they're racist. The fact that people don't think Donald Trump is racist, despite a long list of racist remarks and actions [0], is proof of that. And of course, later, Milo Yiannopoulos later released an audio recording of an explicitly racist rant. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump [1] https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/4/20947833/richard-spencer-white-nationalism-audio-milo-alt-right https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/4/20947833/richard-sp...
    - bena 6y ago
      I've heard it said that the two things the alt-right hates the most: 1. Being called a racist. 2. Black people.
  - drewcoo 6y ago
    The statement is not untrue but it is selectively used here to imply that it only applies to one party. And that is wrong.
  - f154hfds 6y ago
    Disclaimer: I don't watch this channel, can't vouch for other vids. The youtube algorithm suggested this to me the other day, posting it here because it's pretty relevant. When Wokes and Racists actually agree on everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
    - bena 6y ago
      Maybe you should sample some of the other content to get a feel of who this guy is before promoting his work based solely on the fact that you agree with an opinion you have. Because if someone has mostly bad opinions, you have to wonder if he managed to have just one good one or if this is a bad opinion too.
      - f154hfds 6y ago
        My assumption when I write comments on HN is that readers can make opinions for themselves. Perhaps that's a bad assumption? I don't have to agree with an article to post it on HN, why should I have to agree with everything a youtube channel produces to post one of their videos? I doubt I would be able to post almost anything as I have opinions about a variety of subjects, it's very unlikely I will align with anyone on all of them. How about you watch the video and let me know what's objectionable about it specifically?
        bena 6y ago
        What's objectionable? After 5 seconds, it does the exact thing which I expected it to after only looking at the titles of his other videos. Grossly misrepresenting positions to make them look similar enough to "both sides" the issue so he can present himself as an "enlightened centrist" but really is looking to quiet people who would call him out on his problematic opinions. It's a lot like your "assumption". You're trying to present your position as a "gee golly jeez, I'm just asking questions" being sort of overly, even comically naive about content you wish others to consume. You're also asking people to be able to refute the entire video or not voice their objections. To ignore the context of the channel. Blah blah blah. The entire "foot in the door" approach to radicalization. I personally don't believe your claim that you don't watch the channel. Otherwise, why even post a disclaimer? The only reason to post a disclaimer is because you kind of know what to expect from his channel. Either because the video itself is telling (it is) or you know what the rest of the content of the video would show (not great). So please, stop with the disingenuous positions. A good number of people here are savvy enough to see through it.
hef19898 6y ago
So, making sure people can live their lives, without being discriminated and abused, is extremism? What you are saying is that people with more liberal and left leaning views should just forget about it and roll with the right, unless the right feels hurt. It would help, if you would the issues the left should soften up on.
edrxty 6y ago
Examples? I'm not really sure what you're aiming at here. I don't know of any documented cases where too much environmentalism or healthcare really hurt significant populations.
- roenxi 6y ago
  The right supports environmentalism and healthcare. They disagree with specific leftist plans. The official right wing position towards the left is "your outcome would be lovely, but it isn't worth the excessive cost to getting there". There isn't a sizeable lobby who is "against environmentalism", for example. There is a huge lobby who just doesn't see how a comfortable living standard can be achieved without fossil fuels.
  - gremlinsinc 6y ago
    > The right supports environmentalism and healthcare. They disagree with specific leftist plans. Can you give me one right-leaning healthcare or environmental "plan" that anybody in congress is pushing that will cover every American 100% for healthcare, drugs, mental health, dental, etc? Single-payer is the best plan I've seen because it negotiates rates for drugs in bulk - one price for all of America and the government can choose different companies if they won't play ball but it's a huge ass market so they'll play ball. Likewise for the environment - the right tends to deny climate change is even happening, so how do they support environmentalism? Why do the right also think it's okay to spend 700 billion per year on the military (that's more than the next ten countries combined, China for example only spends 200 billion), and the DOD is the only government agency never to pass a fiscal audit. If they're worried about "costs" then maybe they should start with the defense budget. > There isn't a sizeable lobby who is "against environmentalism", for example. There is a huge lobby who just doesn't see how a comfortable living standard can be achieved without fossil fuels. How comfortable a standard of living will we have when we have wars over water, and species of animals becoming extinct at ever faster rates (including the very species we eat and rely on for food)?
    - roenxi 6y ago
AshWolfy 6y ago
any examples?
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological battle. The thread is crappy already, and it gets noticeably worse after swerving in directions like this. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26432620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26432620.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

What the right also needs is a realization that some of its beliefs are akin to extremism. And some of the right inspired policies have really really hurt and isolated a significant population. The right needs to soften it's stand on such issues. It's such a generic statement that it's meaningless and could apply to any group of opinions.

NaturalPhallacy 6y ago
Doesn't mean it's wrong... The racists on the right know they're racists. They admit it. The racists I've encountered on the left are the racism-of-low-expectations kind with a dash of openly-racist-against-white-people, and then they go and act morally superior to people who aren't racist against any race. The sanctimony is grating.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  Really? Where? Usually I've seen forms like this "I strongly believe in (basic description of X)" "You know that's X, right?!" "I'm not X" "Alright, would you say you believe in (wikipedias first paragraph on X)?" "Oh yes! You really understand!" "You know I just lifted that from wikipedia article on X" "Let me hear it again. Ok, that's not exactly right." Etc... Try it yourself next time, it's pretty remarkable. They're not acting in bad faith or trying to deceive. It's like an addict who believes they smoke cigarettes not because they have an addiction but because they enjoy the taste. Most people want to believe they've made the right decisions (https://grist.org/article/80-percent-of-humans-are-delusionally-optimistic-says-science/ https://grist.org/article/80-percent-of-humans-are-delusiona...). They think racism is wrong so therefore their beliefs can't be racist.
  - tired-dev 6y ago
    Exactly. Racists will generally justify themselves as "not racist" by giving claiming something to the tune of "I'm not prejudiced, I just agree with the numbers!", while appealing to some out-of-context statistic to try and act like those disagreeing with them are "denying science" by acknowledging that there's more nuance to the issue.
- hef19898 6y ago
  Don't they deny being racist, sexist or whatever more often than not when called out? It sure seems so.
  - NaturalPhallacy 6y ago
    I'm not even sure if you're talking about the racist left or the racist right and that is mildly amusing. I don't know a lot (any?) racist right folks, but I know a shitload of racist left and they ALL publicly, verbally, in writing, rail against racism in one breath, and then shit on white people in the next. I acknowledge that this is anecdotal, but still...
    - hef19898 6y ago
      There is no racism against white people in the, what, northern hemisphere. And never was. In that part of the world, racism comes from the white population and is aimed at others. Calling white racists out definitely isn't racism.
      - Huwyt_Nashi030 6y ago
        Thankyou for your service, accelerationist.
      - arthurcolle 6y ago
        Racism is literally defined as discrimination against any singular group based on race or ethnic group. Discrimination, irrespective of its origin on the left or right wing of the spectrum, should be treated identically. Implicit and explicit racial discrimination is omnipresent on both sides of the spectrum. This is evidenced by literally pulling up any of the popular social justice warrior channels on YouTube; you then immediately come in contact with it. It is farcical for anyone to push through a narrative that doesn't acknowledge this fact. "White male" has become a demeaning putdown by many enthusiastic liberals, which is evidence enough. Enough.
        hef19898 6y ago
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  > The racists on the right know they're racists. They admit it. Not necessarily. Even Richard Spencer, proud Hitler-saluting Neo-Nazi, essentially the founder of the "alt-right", denies being racist. People know that racism is bad, but a lot of racists will deny being racist while very explicitly saying they don't want to live next to a black person or will call the police just because they saw a black man walking through the neighborhood.
  - kodah 6y ago
    That's not really true. He's definitely claimed to be some flavor of racist on that documentary on Netflix.
    - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
      I don't remember where I saw it, and I'm struggling to find it now, but there was some interview where he explicitly claims to not be racist and claims to not hate black people, and even claims to not be a white supremacist, but that he merely believes that the races shouldn't mix and that America should be a white ethno-state. He knows that racism is not socially acceptable, so he makes bad faith claims of not being racist while expressing obviously racist views. And the problem is, it works. It doesn't take much searching to find racists that don't think they're racist. The fact that people don't think Donald Trump is racist, despite a long list of racist remarks and actions [0], is proof of that. And of course, later, Milo Yiannopoulos later released an audio recording of an explicitly racist rant. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump [1] https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/4/20947833/richard-spencer-white-nationalism-audio-milo-alt-right https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/4/20947833/richard-sp...
  - bena 6y ago
    I've heard it said that the two things the alt-right hates the most: 1. Being called a racist. 2. Black people.
- drewcoo 6y ago
  The statement is not untrue but it is selectively used here to imply that it only applies to one party. And that is wrong.
- f154hfds 6y ago
  Disclaimer: I don't watch this channel, can't vouch for other vids. The youtube algorithm suggested this to me the other day, posting it here because it's pretty relevant. When Wokes and Racists actually agree on everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
  - bena 6y ago
    Maybe you should sample some of the other content to get a feel of who this guy is before promoting his work based solely on the fact that you agree with an opinion you have. Because if someone has mostly bad opinions, you have to wonder if he managed to have just one good one or if this is a bad opinion too.
    - f154hfds 6y ago
      My assumption when I write comments on HN is that readers can make opinions for themselves. Perhaps that's a bad assumption? I don't have to agree with an article to post it on HN, why should I have to agree with everything a youtube channel produces to post one of their videos? I doubt I would be able to post almost anything as I have opinions about a variety of subjects, it's very unlikely I will align with anyone on all of them. How about you watch the video and let me know what's objectionable about it specifically?
      - bena 6y ago
        What's objectionable? After 5 seconds, it does the exact thing which I expected it to after only looking at the titles of his other videos. Grossly misrepresenting positions to make them look similar enough to "both sides" the issue so he can present himself as an "enlightened centrist" but really is looking to quiet people who would call him out on his problematic opinions. It's a lot like your "assumption". You're trying to present your position as a "gee golly jeez, I'm just asking questions" being sort of overly, even comically naive about content you wish others to consume. You're also asking people to be able to refute the entire video or not voice their objections. To ignore the context of the channel. Blah blah blah. The entire "foot in the door" approach to radicalization. I personally don't believe your claim that you don't watch the channel. Otherwise, why even post a disclaimer? The only reason to post a disclaimer is because you kind of know what to expect from his channel. Either because the video itself is telling (it is) or you know what the rest of the content of the video would show (not great). So please, stop with the disingenuous positions. A good number of people here are savvy enough to see through it.

hef19898 6y ago

So, making sure people can live their lives, without being discriminated and abused, is extremism? What you are saying is that people with more liberal and left leaning views should just forget about it and roll with the right, unless the right feels hurt. It would help, if you would the issues the left should soften up on.

edrxty 6y ago

Examples? I'm not really sure what you're aiming at here. I don't know of any documented cases where too much environmentalism or healthcare really hurt significant populations.

roenxi 6y ago
The right supports environmentalism and healthcare. They disagree with specific leftist plans. The official right wing position towards the left is "your outcome would be lovely, but it isn't worth the excessive cost to getting there". There isn't a sizeable lobby who is "against environmentalism", for example. There is a huge lobby who just doesn't see how a comfortable living standard can be achieved without fossil fuels.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  > The right supports environmentalism and healthcare. They disagree with specific leftist plans. Can you give me one right-leaning healthcare or environmental "plan" that anybody in congress is pushing that will cover every American 100% for healthcare, drugs, mental health, dental, etc? Single-payer is the best plan I've seen because it negotiates rates for drugs in bulk - one price for all of America and the government can choose different companies if they won't play ball but it's a huge ass market so they'll play ball. Likewise for the environment - the right tends to deny climate change is even happening, so how do they support environmentalism? Why do the right also think it's okay to spend 700 billion per year on the military (that's more than the next ten countries combined, China for example only spends 200 billion), and the DOD is the only government agency never to pass a fiscal audit. If they're worried about "costs" then maybe they should start with the defense budget. > There isn't a sizeable lobby who is "against environmentalism", for example. There is a huge lobby who just doesn't see how a comfortable living standard can be achieved without fossil fuels. How comfortable a standard of living will we have when we have wars over water, and species of animals becoming extinct at ever faster rates (including the very species we eat and rely on for food)?
  - roenxi 6y ago

AshWolfy 6y ago

any examples?

dang 6y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological battle. The thread is crappy already, and it gets noticeably worse after swerving in directions like this. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26432620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26432620.