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Apple's card wouldn't seem so bad to me if they didn't treat debt to Apple differently [0] & lock people out of all of their Apple services when there's a payme

Apple's card wouldn't seem so bad to me if they didn't treat debt to Apple differently [0] & lock people out of all of their Apple services when there's a payment overdue. It's crappy enough to be behind on bills without that sort of pile-on, not to mention the Kafka-esque process of fixing the issue. [0] https://dcurt.is/apple-card-can-disable-your-icloud-account https://dcurt.is/apple-card-can-disable-your-icloud-account

anamexis 6y ago
While that is definitely concerning, they did clarify that missing card payments will not result in a Apple lockout. In this case, the person received a trade-in credit for a phone, did not send the phone in, and then when Apple tried to collect the trade-in credit, that payment bounced. https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated...
- bigiain 6y ago
  It's still more than worrying enough that I will not use Apple Pay because the consequences of something going wrong and having my Apple Dev account locked are _way_ too high. What if that phone had got lost/stolen in transit, instead of not being sent at all?
  - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    I don’t understand how this is associated with Apple Pay: you don’t need Apple’s branded credit card to use Apple Pay. I have an Amex card that I use for everything except buying Apple products.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
elliekelly 6y ago
> It appears as though charges from Apple are special, and if your account is not 100% current, Apple will quickly take drastic action. It's not just charges made on your Apple card. Here's a comment thread[1] from two years ago when I mentioned Apple did the same thing to me over a recurring charge for iCloud that failed because I got a new debit card and didn't update it in time. (I was traveling.) Unlike the author of the post you linked I was given zero notice or warning that all-things-Apple would stop functioning. I had assumed the charge would just fail the same way any other charge to a "bad" card wouldn't go through and that my iCloud subscription might lapse. I never in a million years imagined the charge would create an $8 debt to Apple payable immediately and that my iPhone (which I owned outright, not financed through Apple or anyone else) would be bricked unless and until I paid up. I was unable to download anything from the app store at all until I entered new payment information. I couldn't even download free updates to free third-party apps. Over $8. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18917685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18917685
- DenisM 6y ago
  > and that my iPhone (which I owned outright, not financed through Apple or anyone else) would be bricked unless and until I paid up Last time you described this situation as "the app store was basically bricked on my phone". That's quite a difference.
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    I've had my debit card replaced and forgot to update Apple's payment details The phone might as well be bricked, updates fail and constantly pop up the payment screen, can't install new apps. It's like having a virus on your phone.
  - zzleeper 6y ago
    Most apps require constant updates or they stop working. I had set up my iphone to only update on wifi, and was travelling for a month or so only using mobile network. When I tried to get an uber, I realized the app didn't work correctly (the driver appeared to be in the middle of the ocean). Same for other apps. Games and apps that don't use heavy server code work fine, but google maps, uber, whatsapp, facebook, and some of the KEY things will break eventually if you never update them.
    - dataflow 6y ago
      Google maps probably won't break, but other things might. https://beebom.com/google-maps-backwards-compatible/ https://beebom.com/google-maps-backwards-compatible/
    - Scoundreller 6y ago
      Once my bank forced me to update. When I went to make a “scheduled payment” (as I like to do after opening my bills...), it now said “coming soon”. I was not impressed.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    It was quite a while ago but IIRC it was around the time of a major iOS update (which I had done) and so in the days that followed many of the apps “required” an update which I couldn’t complete. I wish I could remember which app needed updating that finally pushed me to add my credit card as a payment method. But here I am two+ years later and that AmEx is still the card associated with my AppleID rather than my debit card.
maerF0x0 6y ago
I had a similarish threat from steam once. I wanted to chargeback a game and they said it would cost me access to my _entire library_ . Better to eat a $30 charge than to lose access to $1000s for games.
- chrischen 6y ago
  Can they legally even revoke your licenses to those games? Maybe they remove steam access but you’d still have the right to torrent those games?
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    Their TSA says the content licenses are tied to Steam. If you're banned from Steam, you lose the legal right to those games: This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.
    - maerF0x0 6y ago
      Suddenly steam games don't seem so cheap. They're hamstrung games compared to, say, back when you'd buy a nintendo cartridge and they'd basically have no control what you did with it then on (such as resell it on ebay or continue to play it whilst simultaneously disparaging them in public).
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  There really ought to be regulation around this. I fear it with Amazon and my Kindle library.
  - ddeck 6y ago
    It's a bit of effort, but you can use Calibre (+ dedrm plugin) to backup your kindle content. https://github.com/kovidgoyal/calibre https://github.com/kovidgoyal/calibre
cptskippy 6y ago
This doesn't sound like it's Apple Card but rather the Apple Store doing the disabling. He said his Bank Account info had changed and the Auto-Pay to Apple Card failed. He mentions a card decline but that he had available balance, he never mentions that is Apple Card is disabled however and is vague about the specifics surrounding the card. He bought a Macbook, didn't or wasn't able to fulfill the trade-in, and thus the Apple Store determined he owed the amount they credited for the Trade-In. So when the Apple Store tried to debit his Apple Card for the trade-in amount it failed. The Apple Store then disabled the device purchased and the accounts associated with the purchase. I have a feeling if you tried to do this with a Pre-Paid Visa or a Debit Account, Apple would still disable the device and accounts. * Yeah it's just what I said. Apple/Store froze his accounts, not Apple Card. https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/03/apple-missed-apple-card-payments-apple-id/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/03/apple-missed-apple-card... This will happen to anyone's accounts if they don't fulfill a transaction with Apple Store. It has nothing to do with Apple Pay. ** I also find it strange that he missed an email from Apple telling him he was delinquent on his purchase AND didn't see any emails about an Auto-Pay failure all while waiting for an email from Apple Support about his account being disabled.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Maybe it would still happen with some other card, though probably only if the purchase was directly linked to your account, e.g., buying from Apple's website or retail store. If you used a standard visa card at Best Buy, you'd be fine. Strong reason not to buy direct, if you're going to buy at all.
ceejayoz 6y ago
> lock people out of all of their Apple services when there's a payment overdue They did not do this. He forgot to send them his trade-in and that triggered it. Nothing to do with the card. It’s kinda outrageous he hasn’t updated the article to indicate this.
- cromka 6y ago
  I am trying hard these days not to resort to "judging heuristics" and jump into conclusions about people, but when I see someone calling themselves "Designer, hacker, investor, nomad.", it's like immediately know their type: the "fake it till you make it" entrepreneur wannebes. He also links to his GitHub everywhere, but he made literally no contribution whatsoever in the last 2 years except some README fixes. "Cool people don't say they're cool".
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ineedasername 6y ago
  No, lack of trade in wasn't the direct issue. They didn't lock everything due to failure to receive the trade, they locked it because of the debt that incurred. Read through some other comments-- someone else had the same thing happen for an $8 charge when it was rejected by the credit card company after posting to a cancelled card.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    No, that person indicates they were only unable to download from the App Store until they fixed their payment method for the App Store. Which... makes sense? The rest of their Apple ID, as far as I can tell, was unaffected. It's another example of big claims turning out to be far more mundane. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26430248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26430248
    - asiachick 6y ago
ArchOversight 6y ago
I know the original article is going to get shared way more than the follow-up from Apple that actually explains the events: https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated...

anamexis 6y ago

While that is definitely concerning, they did clarify that missing card payments will not result in a Apple lockout. In this case, the person received a trade-in credit for a phone, did not send the phone in, and then when Apple tried to collect the trade-in credit, that payment bounced. https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated...

bigiain 6y ago
It's still more than worrying enough that I will not use Apple Pay because the consequences of something going wrong and having my Apple Dev account locked are _way_ too high. What if that phone had got lost/stolen in transit, instead of not being sent at all?
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  I don’t understand how this is associated with Apple Pay: you don’t need Apple’s branded credit card to use Apple Pay. I have an Amex card that I use for everything except buying Apple products.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

elliekelly 6y ago

> It appears as though charges from Apple are special, and if your account is not 100% current, Apple will quickly take drastic action. It's not just charges made on your Apple card. Here's a comment thread[1] from two years ago when I mentioned Apple did the same thing to me over a recurring charge for iCloud that failed because I got a new debit card and didn't update it in time. (I was traveling.) Unlike the author of the post you linked I was given zero notice or warning that all-things-Apple would stop functioning. I had assumed the charge would just fail the same way any other charge to a "bad" card wouldn't go through and that my iCloud subscription might lapse. I never in a million years imagined the charge would create an $8 debt to Apple payable immediately and that my iPhone (which I owned outright, not financed through Apple or anyone else) would be bricked unless and until I paid up. I was unable to download anything from the app store at all until I entered new payment information. I couldn't even download free updates to free third-party apps. Over $8. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18917685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18917685

DenisM 6y ago
> and that my iPhone (which I owned outright, not financed through Apple or anyone else) would be bricked unless and until I paid up Last time you described this situation as "the app store was basically bricked on my phone". That's quite a difference.
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  I've had my debit card replaced and forgot to update Apple's payment details The phone might as well be bricked, updates fail and constantly pop up the payment screen, can't install new apps. It's like having a virus on your phone.
- zzleeper 6y ago
  Most apps require constant updates or they stop working. I had set up my iphone to only update on wifi, and was travelling for a month or so only using mobile network. When I tried to get an uber, I realized the app didn't work correctly (the driver appeared to be in the middle of the ocean). Same for other apps. Games and apps that don't use heavy server code work fine, but google maps, uber, whatsapp, facebook, and some of the KEY things will break eventually if you never update them.
  - dataflow 6y ago
    Google maps probably won't break, but other things might. https://beebom.com/google-maps-backwards-compatible/ https://beebom.com/google-maps-backwards-compatible/
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    Once my bank forced me to update. When I went to make a “scheduled payment” (as I like to do after opening my bills...), it now said “coming soon”. I was not impressed.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  It was quite a while ago but IIRC it was around the time of a major iOS update (which I had done) and so in the days that followed many of the apps “required” an update which I couldn’t complete. I wish I could remember which app needed updating that finally pushed me to add my credit card as a payment method. But here I am two+ years later and that AmEx is still the card associated with my AppleID rather than my debit card.

maerF0x0 6y ago

I had a similarish threat from steam once. I wanted to chargeback a game and they said it would cost me access to my _entire library_ . Better to eat a $30 charge than to lose access to $1000s for games.

chrischen 6y ago
Can they legally even revoke your licenses to those games? Maybe they remove steam access but you’d still have the right to torrent those games?
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Their TSA says the content licenses are tied to Steam. If you're banned from Steam, you lose the legal right to those games: This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.
  - maerF0x0 6y ago
    Suddenly steam games don't seem so cheap. They're hamstrung games compared to, say, back when you'd buy a nintendo cartridge and they'd basically have no control what you did with it then on (such as resell it on ebay or continue to play it whilst simultaneously disparaging them in public).
ceejayoz 6y ago
There really ought to be regulation around this. I fear it with Amazon and my Kindle library.
- ddeck 6y ago
  It's a bit of effort, but you can use Calibre (+ dedrm plugin) to backup your kindle content. https://github.com/kovidgoyal/calibre https://github.com/kovidgoyal/calibre

cptskippy 6y ago

This doesn't sound like it's Apple Card but rather the Apple Store doing the disabling. He said his Bank Account info had changed and the Auto-Pay to Apple Card failed. He mentions a card decline but that he had available balance, he never mentions that is Apple Card is disabled however and is vague about the specifics surrounding the card. He bought a Macbook, didn't or wasn't able to fulfill the trade-in, and thus the Apple Store determined he owed the amount they credited for the Trade-In. So when the Apple Store tried to debit his Apple Card for the trade-in amount it failed. The Apple Store then disabled the device purchased and the accounts associated with the purchase. I have a feeling if you tried to do this with a Pre-Paid Visa or a Debit Account, Apple would still disable the device and accounts. * Yeah it's just what I said. Apple/Store froze his accounts, not Apple Card. https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/03/apple-missed-apple-card-payments-apple-id/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/03/apple-missed-apple-card... This will happen to anyone's accounts if they don't fulfill a transaction with Apple Store. It has nothing to do with Apple Pay. ** I also find it strange that he missed an email from Apple telling him he was delinquent on his purchase AND didn't see any emails about an Auto-Pay failure all while waiting for an email from Apple Support about his account being disabled.

ineedasername 6y ago
Maybe it would still happen with some other card, though probably only if the purchase was directly linked to your account, e.g., buying from Apple's website or retail store. If you used a standard visa card at Best Buy, you'd be fine. Strong reason not to buy direct, if you're going to buy at all.

ceejayoz 6y ago

> lock people out of all of their Apple services when there's a payment overdue They did not do this. He forgot to send them his trade-in and that triggered it. Nothing to do with the card. It’s kinda outrageous he hasn’t updated the article to indicate this.

cromka 6y ago
I am trying hard these days not to resort to "judging heuristics" and jump into conclusions about people, but when I see someone calling themselves "Designer, hacker, investor, nomad.", it's like immediately know their type: the "fake it till you make it" entrepreneur wannebes. He also links to his GitHub everywhere, but he made literally no contribution whatsoever in the last 2 years except some README fixes. "Cool people don't say they're cool".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ineedasername 6y ago
No, lack of trade in wasn't the direct issue. They didn't lock everything due to failure to receive the trade, they locked it because of the debt that incurred. Read through some other comments-- someone else had the same thing happen for an $8 charge when it was rejected by the credit card company after posting to a cancelled card.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  No, that person indicates they were only unable to download from the App Store until they fixed their payment method for the App Store. Which... makes sense? The rest of their Apple ID, as far as I can tell, was unaffected. It's another example of big claims turning out to be far more mundane. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26430248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26430248
  - asiachick 6y ago

ArchOversight 6y ago

I know the original article is going to get shared way more than the follow-up from Apple that actually explains the events: https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/03/apple-card-apple-id-unrelated...