8 ms·

Why Mormons Make Great FBI Recruits

hu3 6y ago
> Mormons end up in these agencies for perfectly logical reasons. The disproportionate number of Mormons is usually chalked up to three factors: Mormon people often have strong foreign language skills, from missions overseas; a relatively easy time getting security clearances, given their abstention from drugs and alcohol; and a willingness to serve. Sounds like a no-brainer indeed.
- eesmith 6y ago
  The later part of the article points out why it isn't a no-brainer. Selecting choosing and preferentially supporting people based on their faith tradition, as a proxy for individual merit, has its negatives. For example, the "tangle of religion and work at the Los Angeles bureau", when the FBI bureau is supposed to be a secular workplace. For another example, blacks were a sort of second-class citizen in the LDS Church until 1978; unable to join the priesthood the same way non-blacks could. Even now, black members are relatively uncommon in the US compared to the national demographics. And women may not be ordained priests in the LDS Church. As the article mentions, "most people working for the FBI are white men." Preferential recruiting for Mormons, if not done with brains, has the secondary effect of reduced recruiting for blacks. Preferential support for Mormons, after all, is what lead the judge to determine the FBI "made personnel decisions which favored members of their church at the expense of Hispanic class members". Perhaps one of the unsaid factors is that Mormons are more willing to work in an organization like the FBI with a white, male-dominated hierarchical power structure, without rocking the boat? A.K.A "good cultural fit"?
penetraitor69 6y ago
Speaking as a (now-ex) mormon, this is a very flattering characterization that unfortunately skips over a couple important points. For one, mormonism is a very conservative religion. From blacks voting to gays marrying, the church's stance is "morality peaked in the early 1800s, and everything since then has been backsliding". It is also a very America-centric religion, implicitly and explicitly teaching manifest destiny: that America's founding was ordained by god specifically to facilitate the church's "restoration" (mormonism maintains that it is the "original christianity" practiced by ancient hebrews, don't think about that too hard), that Columbus and the founding fathers were all moral paragons, divinely inspired to that end. It's very insular; you can scarcely go a sunday without some warning about Lastly, it is a religion with a very top-down command structure; "obeying your leaders, even if they're wrong, will bring blessings from god" is an explicit teaching. So it should come as no surprise that Utah suffers from some of the highest rates of affinity fraud in the nation; mormonism is good at making hard workers who obey orders; it's not so great at producing independent thinkers or whistleblowers who'll hold their bosses accountable, nor who will think twice about maintaining the status quo. Those who do break that mold are unlikely to fit in with their mormon peers, assuming they don't just leave on their own (which about 2/3rds of then do). Naturally, if you're running a federal agency with a questionable history, tasked with maintaining the state of the union, that's exactly what you're looking for: a rule follower and order obey-er, not some "free spirit" who could blow the lid off of whatever scheme you're cooking up that week.
- klyrs 6y ago
  > Utah suffers from some of the highest rates of affinity fraud in the nation Saw that when I lived there... > it's not so great at producing independent thinkers or whistleblowers who'll hold their bosses accountable, nor who will think twice about maintaining the status quo. As I understand it, this works out great for the NSA. Given the plurality of mormons that I've met who work there.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Also being ex-mormon, I think one leg up mormon's have and probably really the only redeeming thing from the standpoint of the FBI to set them apart is foreign missions and world-experience from that. I'm very progressive, one wedge against me is the gay-hate (i'm not gay, but I empathize with the community), and hearing a high priest group leader bash Obama and Gays from the pulpit made me stay home long enough and become inactive, the CESLetter did the rest years later. I'm no fan of Obama anymore (too centrist) however I've noticed as far as States go... Utah is odd. It's not "all" special interests (unless that interest is the church), there's a fair more left-friendly legislating for a bright-red state than some of the southern alternatives. I was amazed they passed medical marijuana. There's also more support for the people (they just raised medicaid as an example.) Maybe there's a bit more compassion than your normal evangelical, a tiny bit less hypocrisy. Though, I'm betting the less-hypocritical are the ones who are leaving in droves because once they see it's fake they can't be part of it. It's not about culture to them. It also had the lowest support for Trump in 2016, it's really a peculiar state in terms of ... how they think and act. > Naturally, if you're running a federal agency with a questionable history, tasked with maintaining the state of the union, that's exactly what you're looking for: a rule follower and order obey-er, not some "free spirit" who could blow the lid off of whatever scheme you're cooking up that week. This is the meat of it. Mormons, esp the ones who go into the military are super strait / narrow types who were boy scouts, church leaders, and have been taking orders their entire life. Now they can speak fluent spanish, or french and have taking orders down to a science. You couldn't get a more perfect candidate if you used eugenics.
  - orwin 6y ago
    Actually, that doesn't surprise me. Mormons seems to be equal to the now almost defunct "christian humanism" in europe, left-leaning christian (often catholics) that could even join communists during WW2, who take the rules of hospitality and forgiveness very seriously.
doggodaddo78 6y ago
Having worked with Mormons and attended a high school next to a tabernacle, this makes sense: they are often the squarest, most boring, and helpful people around. (They often do think they're better than everyone else though.) My only problem is that hiring too many people from a magical thinking belief system maybe expedient, but it creates a monoculture and is lunacy.
yellowapple 6y ago
Having at one point been Mormon myself... The things that make Mormons great FBI agents also can be a double-edged sword. The stronger the devotion to the Church, the greater leverage for blackmail; anything that could preclude one from a temple recommend (or, even more severely, result in excommunication) can be used against a follower - be the naughty deeds actual or fabricated. This is less effective against higher-ranking members in the church (bishops, let alone their superiors up to the Quorum and the President, are well-positioned to be able to brush scandals under the rug), but could be absolutely devastating to your average Sister or Elder who could suddenly find oneself shunned by one's community and even one's own family. If I were a spy trying to compromise a Mormon FBI agent, that's exactly where I'd start: get some dirt, threaten to send it to the agent's bishop or disseminate it throughout one's Ward, and get cooperation.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Having also been a Mormon, couldn't this be said of anyone really? I mean nobody really wants their dirty secrets aired to the world, and it doesn't take the FBI to dig up dirt. Sam Young has dug up plenty of dirt and horror stories on church youth interviews. Joseph Bishop was raping girls in the MTC, etc... those came out organically without the FBI's involvement. If anything the church tries very hard to hide any scandals of members because it doesn't just make the member look bad it makes the church look bad... Because they have an image of being "REAL" prophets, seers, revelators who TALK face to face with Jesus. If they don't have the power of "discernment" then the whole church is a fabrication. (Hint: it is. See: CESLetter.org if in doubt).
  - teclordphrack2 6y ago
    I don't give two F's or a s if you know what my kinks are. Being in my mid 30's I have since gotten over ALL your religious fuckery. You won't blackmail me with shlit. It would seem the FBI is hiring a bunch of nancy boys.
  - drewcoo 6y ago
    > couldn't this be said of anyone really Grandparent: 5 is greater than 2. Parent: But aren't they both numbers?
senectus1 6y ago
having lived with a very nice family of Mormons for about 9 months once... this seems to fit. the problem is they are quite simply disconnected from reality, and all the culture they subscribe to only re-enforces that disconnection. They see themselves as being in a world but not of it. the gentle well meaning and polite arrogance is astounding to be immersed in. I would be second guessing everything they say and report back on.
- smitty1e 6y ago
  > They see themselves as being in a world but not of it. the gentle well meaning and polite arrogance is astounding to be immersed in. This is true of pretty much any faith group (Baptist, myself). So, what is the remedy? Progressivism itself functions as a quasi-faith, but I'm just not singing those hymns. One remedy could be to omit these metaphysical questions from hiring choices. Various people hold texts sacred that I do not. If the Bill of Rights means anything, I have to respect the Book of Mormon as much as the Koran.
  - viklove 6y ago
    > This is true of pretty much any faith group (Baptist, myself). Maybe for Abrahamic/Christian faith groups. Definitely not true for many others like Buddhists, Sikhs, etc.
    - smitty1e 6y ago
      We'd probably need to explore definitions, because I'm pretty much meaning: "having an identity distinct from non-members of the group".
      - viklove 6y ago
        Neither of the religions I mentioned have strong opinions about non-members, they both teach that people are just people and there's really no difference between followers of one faith or another. There's a pretty stark difference between Sikhism and Christianity, for example. Christians believe everyone who is non-Christian is going to hell for eternal damnation. Sikhs believe that everyone is actually just worshiping the same god by different names, and that it doesn't matter what you worship, just that you're not an evil person.

hu3 6y ago

> Mormons end up in these agencies for perfectly logical reasons. The disproportionate number of Mormons is usually chalked up to three factors: Mormon people often have strong foreign language skills, from missions overseas; a relatively easy time getting security clearances, given their abstention from drugs and alcohol; and a willingness to serve. Sounds like a no-brainer indeed.

eesmith 6y ago
The later part of the article points out why it isn't a no-brainer. Selecting choosing and preferentially supporting people based on their faith tradition, as a proxy for individual merit, has its negatives. For example, the "tangle of religion and work at the Los Angeles bureau", when the FBI bureau is supposed to be a secular workplace. For another example, blacks were a sort of second-class citizen in the LDS Church until 1978; unable to join the priesthood the same way non-blacks could. Even now, black members are relatively uncommon in the US compared to the national demographics. And women may not be ordained priests in the LDS Church. As the article mentions, "most people working for the FBI are white men." Preferential recruiting for Mormons, if not done with brains, has the secondary effect of reduced recruiting for blacks. Preferential support for Mormons, after all, is what lead the judge to determine the FBI "made personnel decisions which favored members of their church at the expense of Hispanic class members". Perhaps one of the unsaid factors is that Mormons are more willing to work in an organization like the FBI with a white, male-dominated hierarchical power structure, without rocking the boat? A.K.A "good cultural fit"?

penetraitor69 6y ago

Speaking as a (now-ex) mormon, this is a very flattering characterization that unfortunately skips over a couple important points. For one, mormonism is a very conservative religion. From blacks voting to gays marrying, the church's stance is "morality peaked in the early 1800s, and everything since then has been backsliding". It is also a very America-centric religion, implicitly and explicitly teaching manifest destiny: that America's founding was ordained by god specifically to facilitate the church's "restoration" (mormonism maintains that it is the "original christianity" practiced by ancient hebrews, don't think about that too hard), that Columbus and the founding fathers were all moral paragons, divinely inspired to that end. It's very insular; you can scarcely go a sunday without some warning about Lastly, it is a religion with a very top-down command structure; "obeying your leaders, even if they're wrong, will bring blessings from god" is an explicit teaching. So it should come as no surprise that Utah suffers from some of the highest rates of affinity fraud in the nation; mormonism is good at making hard workers who obey orders; it's not so great at producing independent thinkers or whistleblowers who'll hold their bosses accountable, nor who will think twice about maintaining the status quo. Those who do break that mold are unlikely to fit in with their mormon peers, assuming they don't just leave on their own (which about 2/3rds of then do). Naturally, if you're running a federal agency with a questionable history, tasked with maintaining the state of the union, that's exactly what you're looking for: a rule follower and order obey-er, not some "free spirit" who could blow the lid off of whatever scheme you're cooking up that week.

klyrs 6y ago
> Utah suffers from some of the highest rates of affinity fraud in the nation Saw that when I lived there... > it's not so great at producing independent thinkers or whistleblowers who'll hold their bosses accountable, nor who will think twice about maintaining the status quo. As I understand it, this works out great for the NSA. Given the plurality of mormons that I've met who work there.
gremlinsinc 6y ago
Also being ex-mormon, I think one leg up mormon's have and probably really the only redeeming thing from the standpoint of the FBI to set them apart is foreign missions and world-experience from that. I'm very progressive, one wedge against me is the gay-hate (i'm not gay, but I empathize with the community), and hearing a high priest group leader bash Obama and Gays from the pulpit made me stay home long enough and become inactive, the CESLetter did the rest years later. I'm no fan of Obama anymore (too centrist) however I've noticed as far as States go... Utah is odd. It's not "all" special interests (unless that interest is the church), there's a fair more left-friendly legislating for a bright-red state than some of the southern alternatives. I was amazed they passed medical marijuana. There's also more support for the people (they just raised medicaid as an example.) Maybe there's a bit more compassion than your normal evangelical, a tiny bit less hypocrisy. Though, I'm betting the less-hypocritical are the ones who are leaving in droves because once they see it's fake they can't be part of it. It's not about culture to them. It also had the lowest support for Trump in 2016, it's really a peculiar state in terms of ... how they think and act. > Naturally, if you're running a federal agency with a questionable history, tasked with maintaining the state of the union, that's exactly what you're looking for: a rule follower and order obey-er, not some "free spirit" who could blow the lid off of whatever scheme you're cooking up that week. This is the meat of it. Mormons, esp the ones who go into the military are super strait / narrow types who were boy scouts, church leaders, and have been taking orders their entire life. Now they can speak fluent spanish, or french and have taking orders down to a science. You couldn't get a more perfect candidate if you used eugenics.
- orwin 6y ago
  Actually, that doesn't surprise me. Mormons seems to be equal to the now almost defunct "christian humanism" in europe, left-leaning christian (often catholics) that could even join communists during WW2, who take the rules of hospitality and forgiveness very seriously.

doggodaddo78 6y ago

Having worked with Mormons and attended a high school next to a tabernacle, this makes sense: they are often the squarest, most boring, and helpful people around. (They often do think they're better than everyone else though.) My only problem is that hiring too many people from a magical thinking belief system maybe expedient, but it creates a monoculture and is lunacy.

yellowapple 6y ago

Having at one point been Mormon myself... The things that make Mormons great FBI agents also can be a double-edged sword. The stronger the devotion to the Church, the greater leverage for blackmail; anything that could preclude one from a temple recommend (or, even more severely, result in excommunication) can be used against a follower - be the naughty deeds actual or fabricated. This is less effective against higher-ranking members in the church (bishops, let alone their superiors up to the Quorum and the President, are well-positioned to be able to brush scandals under the rug), but could be absolutely devastating to your average Sister or Elder who could suddenly find oneself shunned by one's community and even one's own family. If I were a spy trying to compromise a Mormon FBI agent, that's exactly where I'd start: get some dirt, threaten to send it to the agent's bishop or disseminate it throughout one's Ward, and get cooperation.

gremlinsinc 6y ago
Having also been a Mormon, couldn't this be said of anyone really? I mean nobody really wants their dirty secrets aired to the world, and it doesn't take the FBI to dig up dirt. Sam Young has dug up plenty of dirt and horror stories on church youth interviews. Joseph Bishop was raping girls in the MTC, etc... those came out organically without the FBI's involvement. If anything the church tries very hard to hide any scandals of members because it doesn't just make the member look bad it makes the church look bad... Because they have an image of being "REAL" prophets, seers, revelators who TALK face to face with Jesus. If they don't have the power of "discernment" then the whole church is a fabrication. (Hint: it is. See: CESLetter.org if in doubt).
- teclordphrack2 6y ago
  I don't give two F's or a s if you know what my kinks are. Being in my mid 30's I have since gotten over ALL your religious fuckery. You won't blackmail me with shlit. It would seem the FBI is hiring a bunch of nancy boys.
- drewcoo 6y ago
  > couldn't this be said of anyone really Grandparent: 5 is greater than 2. Parent: But aren't they both numbers?

senectus1 6y ago

having lived with a very nice family of Mormons for about 9 months once... this seems to fit. the problem is they are quite simply disconnected from reality, and all the culture they subscribe to only re-enforces that disconnection. They see themselves as being in a world but not of it. the gentle well meaning and polite arrogance is astounding to be immersed in. I would be second guessing everything they say and report back on.

smitty1e 6y ago
> They see themselves as being in a world but not of it. the gentle well meaning and polite arrogance is astounding to be immersed in. This is true of pretty much any faith group (Baptist, myself). So, what is the remedy? Progressivism itself functions as a quasi-faith, but I'm just not singing those hymns. One remedy could be to omit these metaphysical questions from hiring choices. Various people hold texts sacred that I do not. If the Bill of Rights means anything, I have to respect the Book of Mormon as much as the Koran.
- viklove 6y ago
  > This is true of pretty much any faith group (Baptist, myself). Maybe for Abrahamic/Christian faith groups. Definitely not true for many others like Buddhists, Sikhs, etc.
  - smitty1e 6y ago
    We'd probably need to explore definitions, because I'm pretty much meaning: "having an identity distinct from non-members of the group".
    - viklove 6y ago
      Neither of the religions I mentioned have strong opinions about non-members, they both teach that people are just people and there's really no difference between followers of one faith or another. There's a pretty stark difference between Sikhism and Christianity, for example. Christians believe everyone who is non-Christian is going to hell for eternal damnation. Sikhs believe that everyone is actually just worshiping the same god by different names, and that it doesn't matter what you worship, just that you're not an evil person.