4 ms·

Based on your replies, my own experience living in Japan, conversations with Korean people, and conversations with my sister who is living in Korea, I believe t

Based on your replies, my own experience living in Japan, conversations with Korean people, and conversations with my sister who is living in Korea, I believe the the reduced spread of the virus in Japan & Korea compared to western countries is because of many behavior differences of Japanese & Korean people. For example: 1. In USA, few restaurant workers have job security. If they take sick leave, they lose their jobs. So when they get sick, they go in to work and spread it. In Japan & Korea, most restaurant workers can stay home when sick. 2. In USA, most people don't have the idea of staying home from social events when sick. When they have a cold, they will take medicine to suppress symptoms while they visit family & friends, go to church, etc. This happens much less in Japan & Korea. 3. In USA, before the pandemic, nobody wore a mask while socializing when sick. Even now, it is rare in many parts of the country. In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. 4. Smoking was banned in restaurants & bars in Korea in 2015 and Japan in 2020. So most restaurants in those countries still have powerful ventilation systems designed to handle cigarette smoke. They can turn them up to reduce Covid transmission risk. In USA, most places banned smoking in restaurants & bars about 10-20 years ago. Since that time, many restaurant ventilation systems have been replaced or reconfigured to reduce the air exchange rate. These and other differences add up to a large reduction in virus spread. I have heard many Americans write essentially, "People are maskless in restaurants in Japan and Korea and there's no spike, so we can do it in my country too and not get a spike." I think this conclusion is incorrect. It is based on incomplete knowledge of the differences between their country and Japan & Korea. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_Un...

strogonoff 6y ago
What you say in the first part sounds correct, in that visibly sick people could be more likely to be aware of it and stay home or wear a mask than in other parts of the world, but don’t underestimate the pressure to conform. A maskless gathering will hardly have someone standing their ground wearing a mask, regardless (if one is visibly sick one will be unlikely to attend though). If people here were more aware of the mechanics of spread and asymptomatic carriers, I think the high peaks could have been avoided. As to ventilation, before it was officially banned many restaurants were already non-smoking. Add to that the incredibly fast churn of restaurants closing, opening and renovating, and you can see there’s no perceptible residue from that period. (I don’t observe particularly strong ventilation in Seoul restaurants or cafes, but to be fair I am mostly comparing to Hong Kong, not US.)
timr 6y ago
> In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. No, this isn't even close to true. I've spent far too many hours crammed into trains, classrooms, offices and bars, next to sniffling Japanese people who were walking around sans masks, to believe this silly narrative. Getting on a crowded train and having a guy repeatedly sniffing his runny nose six inches from your face is practically a running joke. The Japanese people I know mostly seemed to wear masks to keep their faces warm in winter, and to reduce allergies during the cedar season. Girls would sometimes wear them to hide their faces or to hide a blemish. Maybe some people wore them to prevent disease, but it was far from a universal goal. > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism. If anything, Japanese people are immensely aware of social pressure, and won't go against obvious social cues.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  Japan and Korea weren’t hit much by the original SARS in 200x (no confirmed deaths). However, it was a huge deal in Hong Kong (considering the deadliness of the disease and high population density). IMO for an example of strong mask-wearing practices for primarily infection-related purposes one could look there, though I’m willing to be corrected.
- mleonhard 6y ago
  > ... to believe this silly narrative. :( I interpret that as a personal insult. Let's disagree without insulting each other. > > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. > This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism. Yes, we're talking about millions of people in aggregate. This requires stereotyping. Stereotyping is only bad when you expect an individual to behave like the aggregate. > If anything, Japanese people are immensely aware of social pressure, and won't go against obvious social cues. That's what I was trying to convey with my statement that wearing a mask is expected like wearing clothing over underwear. Your point about people sniffling on the train is compatible with a social expectation of wearing masks when sick. Every society has some non-conformists. The difference is that sick-no-maskers in Japan & Korea are outliers and in many parts of USA they are the majority. This is what I meant about many small differences adding up.

strogonoff 6y ago

What you say in the first part sounds correct, in that visibly sick people could be more likely to be aware of it and stay home or wear a mask than in other parts of the world, but don’t underestimate the pressure to conform. A maskless gathering will hardly have someone standing their ground wearing a mask, regardless (if one is visibly sick one will be unlikely to attend though). If people here were more aware of the mechanics of spread and asymptomatic carriers, I think the high peaks could have been avoided. As to ventilation, before it was officially banned many restaurants were already non-smoking. Add to that the incredibly fast churn of restaurants closing, opening and renovating, and you can see there’s no perceptible residue from that period. (I don’t observe particularly strong ventilation in Seoul restaurants or cafes, but to be fair I am mostly comparing to Hong Kong, not US.)

timr 6y ago

> In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. No, this isn't even close to true. I've spent far too many hours crammed into trains, classrooms, offices and bars, next to sniffling Japanese people who were walking around sans masks, to believe this silly narrative. Getting on a crowded train and having a guy repeatedly sniffing his runny nose six inches from your face is practically a running joke. The Japanese people I know mostly seemed to wear masks to keep their faces warm in winter, and to reduce allergies during the cedar season. Girls would sometimes wear them to hide their faces or to hide a blemish. Maybe some people wore them to prevent disease, but it was far from a universal goal. > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism. If anything, Japanese people are immensely aware of social pressure, and won't go against obvious social cues.

strogonoff 6y ago
Japan and Korea weren’t hit much by the original SARS in 200x (no confirmed deaths). However, it was a huge deal in Hong Kong (considering the deadliness of the disease and high population density). IMO for an example of strong mask-wearing practices for primarily infection-related purposes one could look there, though I’m willing to be corrected.
mleonhard 6y ago
> ... to believe this silly narrative. :( I interpret that as a personal insult. Let's disagree without insulting each other. > > So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. > This is a great example of stereotyping and asian exceptionalism. Yes, we're talking about millions of people in aggregate. This requires stereotyping. Stereotyping is only bad when you expect an individual to behave like the aggregate. > If anything, Japanese people are immensely aware of social pressure, and won't go against obvious social cues. That's what I was trying to convey with my statement that wearing a mask is expected like wearing clothing over underwear. Your point about people sniffling on the train is compatible with a social expectation of wearing masks when sick. Every society has some non-conformists. The difference is that sick-no-maskers in Japan & Korea are outliers and in many parts of USA they are the majority. This is what I meant about many small differences adding up.