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> I see an...well, let's just call it interesting...number of Japanese people socializing in small restaurants, bars, etc. without wearing masks. Same in Seoul

> I see an...well, let's just call it interesting...number of Japanese people socializing in small restaurants, bars, etc. without wearing masks. Same in Seoul. When discussing this matter with friends located elsewhere, they seem to have difficulty believing this, but every cafe and restaurant will have 90%+ of visitors talking without masks after they finish eating until the time they leave. (Those sitting alone quietly reading a book will wear masks, ironically they’re the smallest threat.) Government has been dealing with this by temporarily forcing franchised shops to shut down, and later restricting working hours of coffeeshops and restaurants (a few in the area, mostly franchises, had to close forever), while people more or less continued to behave the same way throughout the pandemic if they manage to find a place open for eating in. At a cafe or a restaurant, it almost seems like it’s socially unacceptable to be conversing with a friend whilst wearing a mask. This makes little sense to me, especially since walking outdoors without a mask is perceived as taboo[0]. At some point public parks had sitting spaces and grass non-figuratively taped over with signs preventing people from gathering in fresh air, all the while restaurants stringing along park edges were visibly chock full of people gathering to talk indoors (I’ve taken a few photos as it was a shocking sight). Initially this made me furious as I saw pure malice in that arrangement; later someone told me that the government “just” wanted to not be liable for infections that occur in spaces under their direct jurisdiction. This persisted for months until people gradually started ignoring the tape in the park. The only place where everyone reliably wears a mask is buses: bus drivers monitor the cabin and seem to take this matter very seriously. If I’m to speculate, the reason it’s comparatively fine now is thanks to extensive testing and seemingly working contact tracing measures. [0] You’ll be judged unless you are stationary and smoking, in which case no one would bat an eye. Go figure!

mleonhard 6y ago
When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces? Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick?
- strogonoff 6y ago
  > When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces? I’d say “yes but not quite to degree people seem to expect”. First, I don’t have direct evidence as I stopped working from an office a while back, but I believe that within office spaces—which fall under semi-public indoor spaces I suppose—being maskless outside smoking areas is not tolerated. Second, I believe people have on average reduced the time they spend in indoor spaces (maskless or not) other than their homes or work, since eating out slightly lost popularity relative to getting food delivered since the pandemic started. (Still, many people do eat out in groups and restaurants have rarely been empty, only shut down during peaks.) > Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick? You’d be hard-pressed to find people being visibly sick in public, this seems to carry a strong stigma. I could maybe spot 1–2 people in a week sneezing/coughing outdoors or in a cafe, and this won’t be someone in a chatty maskless group. Transmission by asymptomatic carriers is the one that concerns me. I think the above equally applies to Koreans as it does to foreigners residing in Seoul. (Above is from my perspective only, could be biased.)
  - timr 6y ago
    Everything you've written here is consistent with what I'm seeing out of Japan (not terribly surprising, but it's good to see confirmation that I'm not getting a biased sample).
    - mleonhard 6y ago
      Based on your replies, my own experience living in Japan, conversations with Korean people, and conversations with my sister who is living in Korea, I believe the the reduced spread of the virus in Japan & Korea compared to western countries is because of many behavior differences of Japanese & Korean people. For example: 1. In USA, few restaurant workers have job security. If they take sick leave, they lose their jobs. So when they get sick, they go in to work and spread it. In Japan & Korea, most restaurant workers can stay home when sick. 2. In USA, most people don't have the idea of staying home from social events when sick. When they have a cold, they will take medicine to suppress symptoms while they visit family & friends, go to church, etc. This happens much less in Japan & Korea. 3. In USA, before the pandemic, nobody wore a mask while socializing when sick. Even now, it is rare in many parts of the country. In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. 4. Smoking was banned in restaurants & bars in Korea in 2015 and Japan in 2020. So most restaurants in those countries still have powerful ventilation systems designed to handle cigarette smoke. They can turn them up to reduce Covid transmission risk. In USA, most places banned smoking in restaurants & bars about 10-20 years ago. Since that time, many restaurant ventilation systems have been replaced or reconfigured to reduce the air exchange rate. These and other differences add up to a large reduction in virus spread. I have heard many Americans write essentially, "People are maskless in restaurants in Japan and Korea and there's no spike, so we can do it in my country too and not get a spike." I think this conclusion is incorrect. It is based on incomplete knowledge of the differences between their country and Japan & Korea. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_Un...
kijin 6y ago
Stranger danger. If you're having lunch with someone, you probably know them well and trust them to have a sense of hygiene. Some random person who sneezes on Line 9 during the morning rush, not so much. Or at least that's how people's minds appear to work. This behavior seems to be sustainable only because the background rate of infection is so low. It really is vanishingly unlikely for anyone you come across in a coffee shop to have the virus, as most of the cases have occurred in relatively isolated groups like religious cults, prisons, and hospitals.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  Good point and new case distribution rings true based on what I heard. My exasperation mostly comes down to nonsensical norms/regulations where a person safely not wearing a mask outdoors to get fresh air has to fear being judged (or having police called on, I suppose) by the very people who semi-daily engage in active airborne fluid exchange with random strangers sharing the same cafe as their group of friends or coworkers. If I had a say in this, either the former has to be recognized as socially acceptable (2m distance and so on, of course), or the latter has to stop being tolerated. It almost physically pains me to see people getting outside to enjoy a clear day with great AQI, and everyone must be either wearing a mask or smoking. Oh, and the measure with the parks seems absolutely ridiculous. Never been one to hang out in a park, but seeing groups of friends virtually being ushered by signs from outdoors into a cafe to talk is bizarre. Good for the country on the testing effort and having things more or less under control, though.

mleonhard 6y ago

When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces? Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick?

strogonoff 6y ago
> When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces? I’d say “yes but not quite to degree people seem to expect”. First, I don’t have direct evidence as I stopped working from an office a while back, but I believe that within office spaces—which fall under semi-public indoor spaces I suppose—being maskless outside smoking areas is not tolerated. Second, I believe people have on average reduced the time they spend in indoor spaces (maskless or not) other than their homes or work, since eating out slightly lost popularity relative to getting food delivered since the pandemic started. (Still, many people do eat out in groups and restaurants have rarely been empty, only shut down during peaks.) > Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick? You’d be hard-pressed to find people being visibly sick in public, this seems to carry a strong stigma. I could maybe spot 1–2 people in a week sneezing/coughing outdoors or in a cafe, and this won’t be someone in a chatty maskless group. Transmission by asymptomatic carriers is the one that concerns me. I think the above equally applies to Koreans as it does to foreigners residing in Seoul. (Above is from my perspective only, could be biased.)
- timr 6y ago
  Everything you've written here is consistent with what I'm seeing out of Japan (not terribly surprising, but it's good to see confirmation that I'm not getting a biased sample).
  - mleonhard 6y ago
    Based on your replies, my own experience living in Japan, conversations with Korean people, and conversations with my sister who is living in Korea, I believe the the reduced spread of the virus in Japan & Korea compared to western countries is because of many behavior differences of Japanese & Korean people. For example: 1. In USA, few restaurant workers have job security. If they take sick leave, they lose their jobs. So when they get sick, they go in to work and spread it. In Japan & Korea, most restaurant workers can stay home when sick. 2. In USA, most people don't have the idea of staying home from social events when sick. When they have a cold, they will take medicine to suppress symptoms while they visit family & friends, go to church, etc. This happens much less in Japan & Korea. 3. In USA, before the pandemic, nobody wore a mask while socializing when sick. Even now, it is rare in many parts of the country. In Japan & Korea, wearing a mask when sick in public is expected, like wearing clothing over your underwear. So a Japanese or Korean person who feels a little under the weather will opt to keep their mask on when attending a maskless gathering, but an American in the same situation will likely take theirs off. 4. Smoking was banned in restaurants & bars in Korea in 2015 and Japan in 2020. So most restaurants in those countries still have powerful ventilation systems designed to handle cigarette smoke. They can turn them up to reduce Covid transmission risk. In USA, most places banned smoking in restaurants & bars about 10-20 years ago. Since that time, many restaurant ventilation systems have been replaced or reconfigured to reduce the air exchange rate. These and other differences add up to a large reduction in virus spread. I have heard many Americans write essentially, "People are maskless in restaurants in Japan and Korea and there's no spike, so we can do it in my country too and not get a spike." I think this conclusion is incorrect. It is based on incomplete knowledge of the differences between their country and Japan & Korea. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_Un...

kijin 6y ago

Stranger danger. If you're having lunch with someone, you probably know them well and trust them to have a sense of hygiene. Some random person who sneezes on Line 9 during the morning rush, not so much. Or at least that's how people's minds appear to work. This behavior seems to be sustainable only because the background rate of infection is so low. It really is vanishingly unlikely for anyone you come across in a coffee shop to have the virus, as most of the cases have occurred in relatively isolated groups like religious cults, prisons, and hospitals.

strogonoff 6y ago
Good point and new case distribution rings true based on what I heard. My exasperation mostly comes down to nonsensical norms/regulations where a person safely not wearing a mask outdoors to get fresh air has to fear being judged (or having police called on, I suppose) by the very people who semi-daily engage in active airborne fluid exchange with random strangers sharing the same cafe as their group of friends or coworkers. If I had a say in this, either the former has to be recognized as socially acceptable (2m distance and so on, of course), or the latter has to stop being tolerated. It almost physically pains me to see people getting outside to enjoy a clear day with great AQI, and everyone must be either wearing a mask or smoking. Oh, and the measure with the parks seems absolutely ridiculous. Never been one to hang out in a park, but seeing groups of friends virtually being ushered by signs from outdoors into a cafe to talk is bizarre. Good for the country on the testing effort and having things more or less under control, though.