5 ms·

Serious question, why is this a data point we are required to ignore? There's been a lot of discourse about bias lately, so I feel like this is a data point peo

by szhu 6y ago

Serious question, why is this a data point we are required to ignore? There's been a lot of discourse about bias lately, so I feel like this is a data point people will welcome hearing. Thanks for sharing it.

fullshark 6y ago
Because people interested in bias, are only interested when the bias is in other direction.
throwaway02345 6y ago
Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. The truth is that women benefit a great deal from the general goodwill that society grants them. From legal sentencing, to taking your kids to the park, to mentorship opportunities, to simply crossing the road. The list goes on, but western society generally goes out of its way to accommodate the needs of women, particularly in areas such as the job market, where men pave the way with increased risk taking.
- audunw 6y ago
  > Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. Do people really say this? I've seen mens rights issues being raised carefully in the last few years, and I've never seen any backlash when done right. Like when you see articles written about women abusing men, or mens rights regarding children. Even women write about these issues. Feels like it's being accepted, just not being taken seriously enough yet. Maybe it's different in northern europe, but I haven't seen any backlash from international/US websites either. I think part of the problem is that men are afraid of defending these issues. In part because of projection about how others will react. Either if it's from womens right activists going against it, or other macho men saying men shouldn't care about child custody or equality for male in women-dominated workspaces and such. And there ARE also mens rights activist who are just using the issue to fight against womens rights, through whataboutisms and such. But don't let arguments against those people deter you from talking about reasonable mens rights issues.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    Try mentioning men's day at mens day on company slack or twitter to raise awareness of the abuse that young boys suffer in early school. Try to raise awareness of why men are sentenced harder for comparable offenses, graded more harshly (unless anonymous) etc. Count how many people immediately jump in to try to ridicule you, typically with something like: there are already 364 mens days in the year, why aren't you happy already?
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    > Do people really say this? I didn't see any such replies here -- maybe at some other places some people do (Reddit / subreddits?) (I didn't downvote) > don't let arguments against those people deter you from talking about reasonable mens rights issues. Good point
- NoSorryCannot 6y ago
  I can see why you worry your commentary will be perceived as sexist.
  - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
    Non-specific virtual signalling.
  - throwawaygulf 6y ago
    Uncomfortable facts are racist/sexist/-ist/-ic/etc.
jpxw 6y ago
If the poster works at a big tech company, there’s a reasonable chance they could get fired for bringing up a point like that. That’s the world we live in now.
- xtracto 6y ago
  Right, I wish there could be a place where these sort of things could be discussed without the stigmas of "discrimination". My wife and I talk about these sort of things sometimes: We believe there are differences between man and woman (and between different human descents, like people from the mayan descent [from where I am from] are shorter, while people from Germanic descent are taller, among others). That does not have to mean that one is better/worse than the other. But if society accepted and understood those differences, we could make better use of each feature for good. This always reminds me of the equality vs equity cartoon ( http://www.vestidosdecordura.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/WhatsApp-Image-2017-09-19-at-7.21.52-PM.jpeg http://www.vestidosdecordura.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/... )
SkyBelow 6y ago
If you raise a point that shows a slice of society discriminates against men more than women you'll face criticisms that range from "what about the men" to being called an incel to being let known you are not welcome in a community. It is worse online than off but it happens in both. I've personally had it happen numerous times when bringing up statistics concerning gender bias in prison sentencing.
PoignardAzur 6y ago
How to put this factually... Discourse about bias usually makes strong distinctions between groups that are known have relative positions of power in their society (because this discourse is mostly held in Western culture, that usually boils down to "white heterosexual christian-adjacent men") and minority/disenfranchised groups (women, religious minorities, ethnic minorities, LGBT people, etc). Progressive groups are perceived to get extremely testy when it's suggested that minority groups might benefit from / majority groups might suffer from systemic effects in some ways.
- ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
  Women are neither a minority nor disenfranchised. And before someone points to male over-representation in government, maybe think for a moment: whose votes put those men there? This failure to think critically leads to some very silly arguments, for example abortion control being "male politicians controlling women's bodies", when in reality men's and women's opinions on abortions are extremely similar (in the US, at least). Not only is this toxic, it's also counter-productive when we're supposed to pretend that women aren't half of society and thus perfectly capable of contributing to gender roles, e.g. [1] [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-don-t-cry-study-suggests-mothers-not-fathers-show-gender-bias-towards-sons-1.4693208 https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-don-t-cry-study-suggest...
  - StaticRadio 6y ago
    Lmao you're pathetic, bro. >And before someone points to male over-representation in government, maybe think for a moment: whose votes put those men there? Gee, I wonder why a society that still tells rape victims that they asked for it based on the clothes that they wear tends to favor putting more males in government positions than females? Also, women love to sell out their own gender as well. Why is it only the "soyboy liberal" that bitter, misogynistic men like to whine about 'kowtowing" to "Feminazis"? Plenty of women (especially conservative, religious, and "pick me" women) absolutely love selling out other women. Hell, women slut-shame just as much as men do. And where does most of this shit come from? Jealousy and bitterness, just like racism. >for example abortion control being "male politicians controlling women's bodies", when in reality men's and women's opinions on abortions are extremely similar (in the US, at least). Again, sell outs gonna sell out. Doesn't change the fact that it's predominantly male politicians dictating women's bodies. >Women are neither a minority nor disenfranchised. There's a difference between physical minorities and power minorities. If only taking crusty old sexist racists out of power were as easy as simply outnumbering them. How is it that countries like India were ruled by the British (that they clearly outnumbered) for so long? How is it that a disenfranchised working class is repeatedly ruled over by a much-smaller elite that doesn't care about them? https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cochise-sociology-os/chapter/women-as-a-minority/ https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cochise-sociology-os/chapt... Seriously, facts don't care about your feelings. I can't believe that I actually created an account just to tell you how demonstrably ignorant you are. And I'll bet you that I never even bother posting again. I already regret it.

by szhu 6y ago

fullshark 6y ago

Because people interested in bias, are only interested when the bias is in other direction.

throwaway02345 6y ago

Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. The truth is that women benefit a great deal from the general goodwill that society grants them. From legal sentencing, to taking your kids to the park, to mentorship opportunities, to simply crossing the road. The list goes on, but western society generally goes out of its way to accommodate the needs of women, particularly in areas such as the job market, where men pave the way with increased risk taking.

audunw 6y ago
> Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. Do people really say this? I've seen mens rights issues being raised carefully in the last few years, and I've never seen any backlash when done right. Like when you see articles written about women abusing men, or mens rights regarding children. Even women write about these issues. Feels like it's being accepted, just not being taken seriously enough yet. Maybe it's different in northern europe, but I haven't seen any backlash from international/US websites either. I think part of the problem is that men are afraid of defending these issues. In part because of projection about how others will react. Either if it's from womens right activists going against it, or other macho men saying men shouldn't care about child custody or equality for male in women-dominated workspaces and such. And there ARE also mens rights activist who are just using the issue to fight against womens rights, through whataboutisms and such. But don't let arguments against those people deter you from talking about reasonable mens rights issues.
- skinkestek 6y ago
  Try mentioning men's day at mens day on company slack or twitter to raise awareness of the abuse that young boys suffer in early school. Try to raise awareness of why men are sentenced harder for comparable offenses, graded more harshly (unless anonymous) etc. Count how many people immediately jump in to try to ridicule you, typically with something like: there are already 364 mens days in the year, why aren't you happy already?
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > Do people really say this? I didn't see any such replies here -- maybe at some other places some people do (Reddit / subreddits?) (I didn't downvote) > don't let arguments against those people deter you from talking about reasonable mens rights issues. Good point
NoSorryCannot 6y ago
I can see why you worry your commentary will be perceived as sexist.
- ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
  Non-specific virtual signalling.
- throwawaygulf 6y ago
  Uncomfortable facts are racist/sexist/-ist/-ic/etc.

jpxw 6y ago

If the poster works at a big tech company, there’s a reasonable chance they could get fired for bringing up a point like that. That’s the world we live in now.

xtracto 6y ago
Right, I wish there could be a place where these sort of things could be discussed without the stigmas of "discrimination". My wife and I talk about these sort of things sometimes: We believe there are differences between man and woman (and between different human descents, like people from the mayan descent [from where I am from] are shorter, while people from Germanic descent are taller, among others). That does not have to mean that one is better/worse than the other. But if society accepted and understood those differences, we could make better use of each feature for good. This always reminds me of the equality vs equity cartoon ( http://www.vestidosdecordura.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/WhatsApp-Image-2017-09-19-at-7.21.52-PM.jpeg http://www.vestidosdecordura.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/... )

SkyBelow 6y ago

If you raise a point that shows a slice of society discriminates against men more than women you'll face criticisms that range from "what about the men" to being called an incel to being let known you are not welcome in a community. It is worse online than off but it happens in both. I've personally had it happen numerous times when bringing up statistics concerning gender bias in prison sentencing.

PoignardAzur 6y ago

How to put this factually... Discourse about bias usually makes strong distinctions between groups that are known have relative positions of power in their society (because this discourse is mostly held in Western culture, that usually boils down to "white heterosexual christian-adjacent men") and minority/disenfranchised groups (women, religious minorities, ethnic minorities, LGBT people, etc). Progressive groups are perceived to get extremely testy when it's suggested that minority groups might benefit from / majority groups might suffer from systemic effects in some ways.

ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
Women are neither a minority nor disenfranchised. And before someone points to male over-representation in government, maybe think for a moment: whose votes put those men there? This failure to think critically leads to some very silly arguments, for example abortion control being "male politicians controlling women's bodies", when in reality men's and women's opinions on abortions are extremely similar (in the US, at least). Not only is this toxic, it's also counter-productive when we're supposed to pretend that women aren't half of society and thus perfectly capable of contributing to gender roles, e.g. [1] [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-don-t-cry-study-suggests-mothers-not-fathers-show-gender-bias-towards-sons-1.4693208 https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-don-t-cry-study-suggest...
- StaticRadio 6y ago
  Lmao you're pathetic, bro. >And before someone points to male over-representation in government, maybe think for a moment: whose votes put those men there? Gee, I wonder why a society that still tells rape victims that they asked for it based on the clothes that they wear tends to favor putting more males in government positions than females? Also, women love to sell out their own gender as well. Why is it only the "soyboy liberal" that bitter, misogynistic men like to whine about 'kowtowing" to "Feminazis"? Plenty of women (especially conservative, religious, and "pick me" women) absolutely love selling out other women. Hell, women slut-shame just as much as men do. And where does most of this shit come from? Jealousy and bitterness, just like racism. >for example abortion control being "male politicians controlling women's bodies", when in reality men's and women's opinions on abortions are extremely similar (in the US, at least). Again, sell outs gonna sell out. Doesn't change the fact that it's predominantly male politicians dictating women's bodies. >Women are neither a minority nor disenfranchised. There's a difference between physical minorities and power minorities. If only taking crusty old sexist racists out of power were as easy as simply outnumbering them. How is it that countries like India were ruled by the British (that they clearly outnumbered) for so long? How is it that a disenfranchised working class is repeatedly ruled over by a much-smaller elite that doesn't care about them? https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cochise-sociology-os/chapter/women-as-a-minority/ https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cochise-sociology-os/chapt... Seriously, facts don't care about your feelings. I can't believe that I actually created an account just to tell you how demonstrably ignorant you are. And I'll bet you that I never even bother posting again. I already regret it.