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Throwaway because this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teache

Throwaway because this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. The effect of biased grading is enormous and a huge disadvantage to our boys. > Gender-biased grading accounts for 21 percent of boys falling behind girls in math during middle school. [1] [1] https://mitili.mit.edu/sites/default/files/project-documents/SEII-Discussion-Paper-2016.07-Terrier.pdf https://mitili.mit.edu/sites/default/files/project-documents...

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
Doesn’t that mean that 79% of the difference is not due to bias? So boys would still be behind girls even if the bias didn’t exist. Or am I misunderstanding this?
- twgp123 6y ago
  Tables 1-6 show you the actual results on the page labeled 40 (PDF page 42) and the page prior shows actual numbers. In blinded effects, boys overperform in math and underperform in literacy. In non-blinded effects, boys underperform everywhere.
  - andromeduck 6y ago
    I wonder how this plays with the experiments that found that that girls tended to score much closer to boys on math tests when primed with the idea that they would do better and worse when primed with the idea that they would do worse.
    - haihaibye 6y ago
      This is called stereotype threat and there is clear publication bias in the literature. It's not replicating well in pre registered trials: https://replicationindex.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-womens-math-performance/ https://replicationindex.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-women...
szhu 6y ago
Serious question, why is this a data point we are required to ignore? There's been a lot of discourse about bias lately, so I feel like this is a data point people will welcome hearing. Thanks for sharing it.
- fullshark 6y ago
  Because people interested in bias, are only interested when the bias is in other direction.
- throwaway02345 6y ago
  Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. The truth is that women benefit a great deal from the general goodwill that society grants them. From legal sentencing, to taking your kids to the park, to mentorship opportunities, to simply crossing the road. The list goes on, but western society generally goes out of its way to accommodate the needs of women, particularly in areas such as the job market, where men pave the way with increased risk taking.
  - audunw 6y ago
    > Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. Do people really say this? I've seen mens rights issues being raised carefully in the last few years, and I've never seen any backlash when done right. Like when you see articles written about women abusing men, or mens rights regarding children. Even women write about these issues. Feels like it's being accepted, just not being taken seriously enough yet. Maybe it's different in northern europe, but I haven't seen any backlash from international/US websites either. I think part of the problem is that men are afraid of defending these issues. In part because of projection about how others will react. Either if it's from womens right activists going against it, or other macho men saying men shouldn't care about child custody or equality for male in women-dominated workspaces and such. And there ARE also mens rights activist who are just using the issue to fight against womens rights, through whataboutisms and such. But don't let arguments against those people deter you from talking about reasonable mens rights issues.
anotherman554 6y ago
You are citing a study that isn't peer reviewed as a "data point" but when you summarize it like that looks like a factual claim when no factual conclusion should be drawn. It would be an interesting data point if there was any particularly reason to believe the document you cited would hold up to further study.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- subtypefiddler 6y ago
  > study that isn't peer reviewed Terrier, C., 2020. Boys lag behind: How teachers’ gender biases affect student achievement. Economics of Education Review, 77, p.101981. "Economics of Education Review is a quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal covering education economics. It was established in 1981 and is published by Elsevier." What are you talking about?
  - anotherman554 6y ago
    The link I followed upthread was to a working paper from 2016, not a journal article published in 2020.
kamaal 6y ago
>>Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. In my country(India) we have board exams, where people evaluating and candidates are both anonymous to each other. People don't write their names, but use a number. Still Girls do better. Let's just agree girls are better at academic work.
- FlyingSnake 6y ago
  On top of that there was also patriarchy that favored boys over girls. The teachers were more receptive and attentive to boys' well being. The resounding success of girls in India (and the subcontinent) in academics is a great indicator that teachers are biased in favor of girls.
- higerordermap 6y ago
  Girls do better in boards, and boys do better in math-intensive tests like JEEs. It's balanced out here.
cutemonster 6y ago
> this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Actually it's not; it's fine to bring it up. It is PC and OK

amanaplanacanal 6y ago

Doesn’t that mean that 79% of the difference is not due to bias? So boys would still be behind girls even if the bias didn’t exist. Or am I misunderstanding this?

twgp123 6y ago
Tables 1-6 show you the actual results on the page labeled 40 (PDF page 42) and the page prior shows actual numbers. In blinded effects, boys overperform in math and underperform in literacy. In non-blinded effects, boys underperform everywhere.
- andromeduck 6y ago
  I wonder how this plays with the experiments that found that that girls tended to score much closer to boys on math tests when primed with the idea that they would do better and worse when primed with the idea that they would do worse.
  - haihaibye 6y ago
    This is called stereotype threat and there is clear publication bias in the literature. It's not replicating well in pre registered trials: https://replicationindex.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-womens-math-performance/ https://replicationindex.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-women...

szhu 6y ago

Serious question, why is this a data point we are required to ignore? There's been a lot of discourse about bias lately, so I feel like this is a data point people will welcome hearing. Thanks for sharing it.

fullshark 6y ago
Because people interested in bias, are only interested when the bias is in other direction.
throwaway02345 6y ago
Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. The truth is that women benefit a great deal from the general goodwill that society grants them. From legal sentencing, to taking your kids to the park, to mentorship opportunities, to simply crossing the road. The list goes on, but western society generally goes out of its way to accommodate the needs of women, particularly in areas such as the job market, where men pave the way with increased risk taking.
- audunw 6y ago
  > Because if you don't characterize women as an oppressed people in every possible instance then you're sexist. Do people really say this? I've seen mens rights issues being raised carefully in the last few years, and I've never seen any backlash when done right. Like when you see articles written about women abusing men, or mens rights regarding children. Even women write about these issues. Feels like it's being accepted, just not being taken seriously enough yet. Maybe it's different in northern europe, but I haven't seen any backlash from international/US websites either. I think part of the problem is that men are afraid of defending these issues. In part because of projection about how others will react. Either if it's from womens right activists going against it, or other macho men saying men shouldn't care about child custody or equality for male in women-dominated workspaces and such. And there ARE also mens rights activist who are just using the issue to fight against womens rights, through whataboutisms and such. But don't let arguments against those people deter you from talking about reasonable mens rights issues.

anotherman554 6y ago

You are citing a study that isn't peer reviewed as a "data point" but when you summarize it like that looks like a factual claim when no factual conclusion should be drawn. It would be an interesting data point if there was any particularly reason to believe the document you cited would hold up to further study.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
subtypefiddler 6y ago
> study that isn't peer reviewed Terrier, C., 2020. Boys lag behind: How teachers’ gender biases affect student achievement. Economics of Education Review, 77, p.101981. "Economics of Education Review is a quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal covering education economics. It was established in 1981 and is published by Elsevier." What are you talking about?
- anotherman554 6y ago
  The link I followed upthread was to a working paper from 2016, not a journal article published in 2020.

kamaal 6y ago

>>Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. In my country(India) we have board exams, where people evaluating and candidates are both anonymous to each other. People don't write their names, but use a number. Still Girls do better. Let's just agree girls are better at academic work.

FlyingSnake 6y ago
On top of that there was also patriarchy that favored boys over girls. The teachers were more receptive and attentive to boys' well being. The resounding success of girls in India (and the subcontinent) in academics is a great indicator that teachers are biased in favor of girls.
higerordermap 6y ago
Girls do better in boards, and boys do better in math-intensive tests like JEEs. It's balanced out here.

cutemonster 6y ago

> this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Actually it's not; it's fine to bring it up. It is PC and OK