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The Uyghur Genocide: An examination of breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention

302 points by lawrenceyan 6y ago

mikece 6y ago
Both on the left and the right of US politics there has been fault found with China. I'm kinda surprised that no large brands have highlighted "No Chinese-made components" on their products. We embrace "blood-free" diamonds, why not Chinese-free merchandise for similar reasons?
- conanbatt 6y ago
  The chinese people that build products are not the ones with the concentration camps. Pressure has to be on the top of the political spectrum, not on the regular chinese citizen.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    There are many ways to pressure the political spectrum, one of them is to take a stance on refusing import from the country - that will trickle up to the top of the spectrum. It's not particularly impactful for a company to do on it's own due to the size of the chinese economy (we'd need a coordinated national effort) but if the Uyghur Genocide is something you feel strongly about as a business owner you can probably relocate to other suppliers without that much of a raise in cost.
  - tablespoon 6y ago
    > The chinese people that build products are not the ones with the concentration camps. Pressure has to be on the top of the political spectrum, not on the regular chinese citizen. That sounds nice, but your suggestion reduces the available options practically to zero (pretty much left with assassination and pointless sanctions against people with no foreign assets and diplomatic immunity when traveling). The people at the top of the political spectrum derive a large part of their power from the factories where those regular people work.
    - dheera 6y ago
      By the same you could say the same cops that are murdering black lives are funded in part by the taxes of Silicon Valley companies. You could say Guantanamo Bay was funded in part by your taxes. You could say all the ruckus in Nicaragua was funded by your taxes as well. I personally firmly stand by not punishing civilians and private/mostly-private/mostly-civilian-held companies for the actions of their governments. Also, governments are not monolithic. Would you punish the National Park Service for the actions of the NSA?
      - badRNG 6y ago
        Just to add to this, the US has long held an antagonistic relationship with the International Criminal Court (ICC), and has shielded and acquitted war criminals as recently as last year. Are we going to blame American civilians for this behavior?
        rascul 6y ago
        Regarding the relationship the US has with the ICC, see the American Service-Members' Protection Act. > ASPA authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization has led the act to be nicknamed the "Hague Invasion Act". > The act prohibits federal, state and local governments and agencies (including courts and law enforcement agencies) from assisting the court. For example, it prohibits the extradition of any person from the U.S. to the Court; it prohibits the transfer of classified national security information and law enforcement information to the court. > The act also prohibits U.S. military aid to countries that are party to the court. However, exceptions are allowed for aid to NATO members, major non-NATO allies, Taiwan, and countries that have entered into "Article 98 agreements", agreeing not to hand over U.S. nationals to the court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
      - tablespoon 6y ago
        > By the same you could say the same cops that are murdering black lives are funded in part by the taxes of Silicon Valley companies. That's nonsensical, and completely ignores the idea of power/control. The Chinese government has direct control over Chinese manufacturers, and derives power from them. Derek Chauvin or the MPD (for example) do not control or derive power from a Bay Area tech company Google, and have only a very tenuous relationship with it (if any). > You could say Guantanamo Bay was funded in part by your taxes. You could say all the ruckus in Nicaragua was funded by your taxes as well. And if you want to boycott American goods over that, be my guest.
  - tomjen3 6y ago
    That would be nice, but as I recall it some companies got caught with their fingers in the cookie jar, including Apple [0]. The screen on your iPhone might be made with Muslim slave labor. [0]: https://dailycaller.com/2020/12/29/apple-uyghur-lens-technology/ https://dailycaller.com/2020/12/29/apple-uyghur-lens-technol...
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    Some of the chinese people that help build products are in the concentration camps. Not all of course.
    - conanbatt 6y ago
      Very much in favor of not consuming products out of concentration camps.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    I know people are downvoting you, but you are correct. The only ones who can really apply power to China are state level actors. Nothing will come of boycotting Chinese products. If you want to buy "Made in the _________" then do it because you want to help the western (other?) economies rather than China, not because it will do anything to convince the Chinese government not to genocide a culture.
- meepmorp 6y ago
  Because diamonds are an exclusively luxury item that people can easily forego, and China is a whole country with a massive industrial base that makes a wide variety of products for cheap. If you have $10, you're more likely to buy a $2 item than a $5 one because 20% of your budget is easier to justify than 50%.
  - mikece 6y ago
    I know it's difficult to buy a compute that doesn't have Chinese-made parts these days but not all parts of a computer are made in China. CPUs and memory chips are made in Taiwan and Korea; are there not makers of PCBs, power supplies, and the other parts of a computer such that you can get a computer to less than 10% Chinese parts? I didn't do a good job of expressing that raising awareness of the percentage of Chinese components as a differentiator would be a great marketing tool (similar to how cars sold in the US show what percentage of the parts in the car are US made versus imported).
    - wizzwizz4 6y ago
      Unless you've got to 0%, that remaining proportion is still leverage.
      - tachyonbeam 6y ago
        If you make a conscious choice, you can gradually reroute your supply chain.
        Guest42 6y ago
        It’s very concerning that the responses on this issue are so timid. I think for individual corporations to reroute takes a bit of effort but that it would be possible for groups of corporations to do this with guidance from the government. Not doing this is funding the atrocities.
        wizzwizz4 6y ago
- tablespoon 6y ago
  > Both on the left and the right of US politics there has been fault found with China. I'm kinda surprised that no large brands have highlighted "No Chinese-made components" on their products. We embrace "blood-free" diamonds, why not Chinese-free merchandise for similar reasons? My guess is US corporations are too entangled with China, and it is too powerful and willing to retaliate. I wouldn't be surprised if a brand that did what you suggest would immediately be accused of "hurting the feelings of the Chinese people," and have its supply chains and markets disrupted.
- praptak 6y ago
  That might make some consumers feel a bit better but in the end it won't change anything. It's a political problem which can only be solved at the state level.
  - mikece 6y ago
    And the state will only have the motivation to address the problem if they are facing a popular uprising -- either in fact or it's feared likely -- that could threaten the CCP as a the ruling order in China. There is a very long history in China of popular uprisings forcing political change which is why the reaction in Tienanmen Square in 1989 was so harsh and so swift (it's also why the unrest in Hong Kong is being put down the way it is). If any unrest doesn't end quickly and stay localized the CCP fears it will become nationwide before countermeasures are taken. And if we, as consumers, make it clear that we will be buying Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Japanese, Korean, Indian -- ANYTHING that isn't Chinese -- it will cause a reaction in the CCP (I just hope that reaction isn't a military first-strike).
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      China is not going to engage in a military first-strike because some consumers stop buying products that are made there. Somewhat surprised it needs to be said, but I guess as tensions are getting higher, people just say more and more ridiculous things.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      > (I just hope that reaction isn't a military first-strike) Whenever I read statements like this I wonder who people think China might attack militarily. The only one I can think of that wouldn't either cost them more than they'd gain (and even then it still probably would) or turn into a suicidal act would be Taiwan. Any other neighboring nation offers them little value with respect to the cost of war, and nations like the US and Russia could create such an expansive war that China would lose all the political and economic ground it's gained this century, and probably more.
      - 6y ago
- ISL 6y ago
  One need-not single out a nation-state in "-free" designations. If WTO membership and global free-trade were predicated on certain civil-rights ground rules like: a free press, demonstrable rule of law, democratically elected governance, due process, and a complete absence of concentration camps, the world would be a better place. Not only would it address the plight of the Uyghur people and the travesty that is occurring in Hong Kong, but it might grant the inmates at Guantanamo fair and open hearings. Bring on the "oppression-free" consumer certifications. I am certain that there is a market.
- PraetorianGourd 6y ago
  I just bought a new down pillow, and there was a bunch of advertising about ethical down, and that the geese were treated well and the such. And if I buy a down pillow from a place that wasn't certified, I was a monster. Which is important! But I don't see any such admonishments against buying face masks or laptop parts made by Uighur slaves/prisoners. Edit: I should note, I am saying it is disgusting that we turn a blind eye to human suffering in the name of cheaper products and higher profit margins.
- phreack 6y ago
  Maybe a lack of signal? I would certainly buy a more expensive product that's certified not to be made in genocidal or slave-labor countries. I've seen lists of 'blood-free' chocolate brands online before and they certainly had an effect.
- tomjen3 6y ago
  I don't think there is a single large brand that truthfully _could_ advertise that.
  - YarickR2 6y ago
    Exactly, and competitors could easily prove such claims as lies, by pointing out second level suppliers being affiliated with China; guilty by association. We're effectively trapped in one cage with China, with no easy way out.
- bjt2n3904 6y ago
  Atop what everyone else says, I reckon it would take all of five minutes for Twitter to reframe it as xenophobic prejudice against China. Doesn't matter that it isn't true. It sounds true, and that's all that matters.
  - president 6y ago
    You got downvoted but that's essentially what happened with Covid. You're not even allowed to say the original name anymore [1][2]. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/01/26/memorandum-condemning-and-combating-racism-xenophobia-and-intolerance-against-asian-americans-and-pacific-islanders-in-the-united-states/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action... [2] https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/23074/ https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/23074/
    - munk-a 6y ago
      I don't know about that - I usually refer to it as COVID-19 but nobody looks askance if I mention Coronavirus.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  I do agree, but I would say it's an infrastructure problem than choice. Most components and "stuff", well, comes from China. Going elsewhere is not marginally more expensive, its significantly more. This means your political stance, though righteous, will bleed dry compared to those who would actually go for the "blood diamonds" for the lower cost. It takes the consumer to also make the choice. The big arguement in the early 2000s on the fear of too much China reliance is exactly this. Can we stand a moral ground against a country whose teet we depend on? Too many companies are disgusting unwilling to. I dont watch anything hollywood (which has been silly easy oddly) over the whole self censorship to appease the chinese market. Any company that kowtows to chinese pressure for any little thing is on my shit list. But I'm just one dude. Most people dont care or are unwilling. At that, I know my computer, phone and a number of other things came from China. Anytime I can get anywhere but China, I go for it. It's real difficult. Unloading our manufacturing wasn't smart and we are reaping what we sowed.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    I'm doing my part by pirating Disney movies and encouraging anyone and everyone around me to pirate them too. Do Netflix and Amazon also engage in appeasement? Those are the only two accounts we maintain now.
- Chazprime 6y ago
  I think that's likely because the quality of electronic components coming out of China has improved considerably while still being less expensive than manufacturing locally.
- colonelpopcorn 6y ago
  The cult of the MBA and their sacrament of cost-cutting measures?
- fossuser 6y ago
  South Park's Band In China episode had this exactly right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_in_China Earlier last year when people were joking about Apple not showing iPhones getting broken in their shows on Apple TV, the less talked about but much more alarming bit was their comment about China. "Today’s report also claims that Eddy Cue has told Apple TV+ leadership that “the two things we will never do are hard-core nudity and China,” referring to potentially angering China with any of its original TV shows or movies." https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/13/apple-tv-plus-gawker-show/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/13/apple-tv-plus-gawker-show/ Does this mean no news on Apple TV? That soft-censorship for corporate economic interest reasons will allow the CCP to do terrible things because companies are incentivized to ignore it/suppress speech around it? Apple also capitulates to the CCP, allowing them to host iCloud on CCP servers in country. They also remove the Taiwanese flag from Chinese iPhones, and remove podcast apps/content from China. On one side you could argue this inter-economic dependence lowers the likelihood of war. It is not without an ethical cost though. Is genocide an acceptable cost for stability and compromising your principles? Is access to the Chinese market worth that? https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html The outcome of the South Park episode: "In response to the episode's criticism of the Chinese government, South Park has been entirely banned in China, including on its streaming services and social media platforms. In October 2019, insiders told Bloomberg that Apple, which has a significant portion of its users and manufacturers in China, was reportedly unlikely to bid for the streaming rights of the series due to the China ban."
- eddywebs 6y ago
  There is already a movement going on in India to boycott Chinese made goods. Issue or not an issue, it is imperative that manufacturing has redundancies like Apple making phones both in China and India.
- ahthat 6y ago
  It’s a little incendiary and perhaps would look a little racist to label things “Chinese free” or “Not made in China”. Objects should simply continue to label their country of origin. If the population really is interested in generally removing themselves from commerce with China, there will be a tendency to avoid products with the “Made in China” label. How great this tendency is will depend on how much the population values a commercial separation. Of course, it is ridiculous to assume that any individual would be completely aware of the degree to which their lives are ultimately influenced by commerce with China via their consumption of goods, let the alone the entire population. However, we can still expect the change in commerce with China to reflect the degree to which the rest of society values not doing business with those business entities that prosper in the spirit of mutual benefit with a regime that practices perverse and backwards acts against humanity entirely unbefitting of any modern world power. Anyone man of commerce with a conscience must ultimately conclude to some degree that cooperating with entities under such a regime is not ideal, if simply for the sake of attempting to do good rather than evil. However, any man or woman of reason must realize that the leaders in international commerce that make these decisions must ultimately weigh this fact against a multitude of other factors. Their service most likely is foremost to the continuing survival of the business they represent, which in turn is dependent on consumption of the goods they sell. In the case of business with China, we can assume this to be goods sold elsewhere in society. These members of society have multilayered responsibilities in their responsibilities to society. Yes, to a degree they are responsible for the strife in China— however, they are also responsible to all the members of their supply chain, fellow colleagues and employees, business partners, and then also their consumers, not to mention their dependents and other contracts such as debt obligations and taxes. These are realities for society members working in the integrated world economy. To quit business altogether means disrupting these chains. However, if society values not cooperating with that particular system that sins against mankind enough, it would by degrees remove its consumption of the goods that arrive from that system, and furthermore by degrees shame and diminish the reputations of any partner to that specific system — the greater we as a society value liberty and justice for all, in both the arenas of physical personhood and in business, the more we will pressure the partners of the system and then ultimately the system itself to cease the contraptions diminishing to our natures. The degree to which society truly values these noble aims will be shown by the collective decisions and actions of that society. In other words, in a free society, by which the actions of men and women are freely chosen, the degree to which that society as a collective values freedom will influence the degrees to which those who practice barbarism can continue doing so.
- fiftyfifty 6y ago
  I don't think we'll see individual brands take action unless there is significantly more consumer pressure in the west. For many manufacturers it could take years for them to create the manufacturing capacity somewhere else. This is a tricky situation, any military action has the potential to cause more death and suffering. Economic sanctions seem like the only reasonable path forward, but because of the entanglement of China with virtually everyone's economies it is likely to hurt the US and Europe as well. Is the west willing to suffer a severe recession to help the Uyghurs?
- dillondoyle 6y ago
  Because it's hard and there aren't yet enough legal consequences for the use of this concentration camp prisoner labor. While I agree we must get much stronger incentives/laws on our side we can't get distracted and pass all the moral consequences/imperative for action onto our side. It's less than half the equation. We need to tackle the other side of this problem because CCP is directly responsible. Bottom line Xi is perpetrating this genocide. That's the main fault & we can't 'offshore' 100% of the blame onto our corporations. Even if we did get perfect decoupling I don't think that would be enough incentive to change China's behavior? Morally, I don't think that alone is a strong enough reaction to these horrors and threats to Democracy. We must hold the CCP & Xi directly responsible
- beaunative 6y ago
  We don't really need diamonds, and the freedom loving people of the great united states of america do not produce most of things they use on a daily basis. They can all talk, but when a milk tea in San Francisco costs more than an earphone shipped from China, what's the choice gonna be?
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  The idea of boycotting goods from manufacturers whose enterprises are supported by state perpetrators of genocide might appeal to lots of people who are humanists. In practice, that would mean not buying anything that has a connection to a list of countries that includes China, Indonesia, Belgium, and several countries which I'm not going to list because the conversation would become unmanageable, just as the Uyghur conversation would become unmanageable within China. If China were the only guilty state in the world, a boycott would be a different proposition to what it is. Even then, it's not guaranteed to be effective because the way things work psychologically, commercially, and geopolitically. Even though 99% of people consider themselves humanists, they are able to compartmentalise their feelings in surprising ways when it comes to the acquisition of consumer goods, energy, copper, gold, diamonds, and real estate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Because boycotts don't work on this scale. This is nation state level stuff. Only the US government can apply any pressure here on a scale that makes a difference. The best thing you can do is vote for politicians that aren't afraid of China. If you want to buy American then do it because you want to buy American and help the economy and your fellow Americans not because you want to punish China.
- SkyMarshal 6y ago
  Because US corporations want access to China's market, which is 2x-4x the size of the US's. Criticizing China or the CPC will get them expelled.
- 99_Woodcutting 6y ago
  False. The right claims "Beijing Biden" is a sleeper agent for the CCP who is selling America out to China. Just check the comment section of ben shapiro youtube videos or the /r/conservative subreddit. In the minds of the right, only Republicans are truly anti-China. They think the left is giving in to China.
thrw 6y ago
How can I filter out products made in China on Amazon?
- meepmorp 6y ago
  By not using Amazon, tbh.
- mikece 6y ago
  Years ago (30 years already?) if you shopped at Walmart you would see red, white and blue stickers proudly proclaiming "100% American Made" on items that were just that. If you buy a new car in the US the dealer sticker lists what percentage of the parts in the car are US-made versus imported. Labels that show what percentage of parts come from China could be a powerful marketing tool.
- maxwell 6y ago
  https://wecultivate.us https://wecultivate.us
  - smoldesu 6y ago
    > Starting April 1st 2021, we will charge 15% of all sales through Cultivate. Man, what a great way to support American business...
- betterunix2 6y ago
  I doubt you could for the majority of products. Modern supply chains are global and China has a massive economy and thus a massive role in those supply chains.
- exolymph 6y ago
  You can't, obviously. Why would you expect to be able to do that?
- 99_Woodcutting 6y ago
  Stop using Amazon entirely. They are shills and enablers for the CCP.
dirtyid 6y ago
Report rehashes boring Zenz talking points, nothing original. Most interesting tidbit. Newlines is funded by FairfaxU of Virginia, a private school with ~150 students and ~60 staff (read: there's external funding). Newlines Institute is also rebrand Center for Global Policy (CGP), tradename for International Institute of Islamic Thought... linked to the Muslim Brotherhood [0]. And owned by Mar-Jac, a front for SAAR Foundation, a massive source of funding of extreme terrorism whose US proxies were heavily investigated post 911, including IIIT with a couple prosecutions. Hence the rebranding. Most of their US proxies are located in Virginia, a recent of Mar-Jac investments in private schools was linked to Turkish Gulenist, which Gulf council countries has designated as terrorists... including Saudi. So the most interesting extrapolation for me is that some wealthy Saudi group(s) is interested in pushing genocide narrative via US proxies despite Saudi support for China at UN and MbS purging major funders of terrorist groups. Western MSM is whitewashing this as "Independent DC think tank". Real question is if this is Muslim extremist groups pursing their own interests through obfuscation or if they're coordinating with US intelligence, it's Virginia after all. US was willing to delist Uyghur terrorist groups, they're willing to work with OG Al Qaeda funders to destabilize. MSM is currently using "Independent DC think tank" label for front funded by the same groups that was responsible for Al Qaeda. Desperate times for propaganda. [0] https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2020/11/12/new-muslim-brotherhood-linked-think-tank-tries-to-launder-credentials-fails/ https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2020/11/12/new-musli...
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  Nayirah testimony, WMDs in Iraq, the Libyan rape allegations, Syrian chemical attacks -- eventually you would think people would catch on to this playbook. I don't doubt there are serious human rights violations taking place in Xinjiang, but the term "genocide" is ridiculous, an allegation being deployed in support of the aims of U.S. empire.
  - LazyBoyAccount 6y ago
    >but the term "genocide" is ridiculous, an allegation being deployed in support of the aims of U.S. empire. So why doesn't China allow independent investigations into what's really taking place? Maybe if they weren't hiding the truth people wouldn't be so quick to fill in the holes with their own stories.
carnagecity786 6y ago
I feel like I keep seeing headlines like this, but nothing really changes. No country has the power, authority or even the international political weight to stand up to China. In generations to come we're going to look back at this moment and marvel at how everyone knew it was happening (unlike Nazi Germany where the allies only found out towards the end of the war) and yet done nothing about it. The current US administration cares more about curbing China's international political and financial influence rather than perhaps the biggest humanitarian issue since the Rwandan Genocide
- ipnon 6y ago
  If we compare China to Nazi Germany, the first legislation acts against Jewish Germans began in 1933, 12 years before the end of the regime. The rest of world was already aware of the abuse of Jewish Germans because they began to flee the country at that early time. Unfortunately, it is one thing to denounce an act and another to end it.
cletus 6y ago
I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling. The only real defense here is that the reports of it happening are untrue or exaggerated and I think at this point we have ample evidence that's not the case. So let's set that issue aside and look at the more general problem of polarization as that has wider implications. Fact is, most people in the US (as one example) don't give a shit about genocide halfway around the world beyond maybe some slacktivism in liking a social media post about it every now and again. So I'm not Chinese but as an outsider looking in who is not an expert by any stretch of the imagination this is what I see: I see a culture that within living memory came out of a period of severe instability, hunger and turmoil. China now under pseudo-Communist rule has entered a period of stability and prosperity for a significant portion of the population. Because that's so recent there seems to be (heavy IMHO here) a cultural fear of that going prosperity going away. I don't want to trivialize this by any means but you see something roughly analogous to this with people who grew up poor vs those who didn't, even if those people who grew up poor have money now. Just having that experience of growing up without food or housing security changes you. It changes your relationship to money. So what I see is there's an awful lot of Chinese people who look at any issue relating to China through this lens: anything remotely critical of China is an attack on that prosperity. So anything critical of China on HN (comments or posts) will attract a certain level of automatic downvote on any hot button issue (eg Uyghurs, Taiwan, Hong Kong, the origins of Covid-19). The lesson here I think is in how dangerous things become when a large group of people become fearful. As an example, in the US today you have polarization because people fan the flames of fear. The Trump base is one who fears their way of life is under attack, exploited quite masterfully where any demonstrable proof that Trump himself is by any objective measure a horrible human being gets labelled as "fake news" and people eat it up because that's what they want to believe. And they want to believe that because they've bought into this culture of fear. I just hope we're not all screwed.
- CyanBird 6y ago
  > I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling Maybe, yeah Detention for fear of terrorism is bad when the US did it with Japanese born citizens in Wwii and it is bad when it was done in Guantánamo, and it is bad now That said, why are the supposed witnesses to these crimes changing their histories and narratives to make it seem like a B type horror movie rather than stick to their original telling of it? I can't but remember the Nariyah Testimony in front of Congress https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-but-also-bite-all-over-your-body-horror-stories-told-by-chinese-defectors-contin.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-bu...
hertzrat 6y ago
> China has simultaneously pursued a dual systematic strategy of forcibly sterilizing Uyghur women of childbearing age and interning Uyghur men of child-bearing years, > According to Government statistics and directives, including to “carry out family planning sterilization,” “lower fertility levels,” and ”leave no blind spots,” > China began building a vast network of massive State- run, highly securitized boarding schools and orphanages to confine Uyghur children, including infants, full time. > local authorities have eliminated Uyghur education, destroyed Uyghur architecture and household features, and damaged, altered, or completely demolished the vast majority of mosques and sacred sites in the region, I had not heard of any of this before today. The news only talked about internment, surveillance, and forced labour. Edit: Why the flood of downvotes? Are the quotes offending people? They are directly from the executive summary of the report
- danShumway 6y ago
  Threads like this aren't going to reach the top of HN very often (or in my experience, other social networking sites either), they get flagged and downvoted to oblivion. HN policy prohibits me from speculating why, but you can fill in the blanks. There have been multiple media reports, but it's reasonable you might not have run into them outside of the context of "the PRC is vaguely doing something bad to Uyghurs". But yeah, the reality of what's going on is kind of horrifying, and I think the reaction from other nations (including the US) has been underwhelming.
  - antibuddy 6y ago
    I can also fill out the blanks without violating HN policy. Nobody wants political controversity on their site because it attracts a lot of related problems. It is obiviously part of the spiral of silence and therefore I don't like it much, but one can kind of understand why.
    - 99_Woodcutting 6y ago
      China is the sole exception for our "no politics, only tech" rule. They are a unique evil that must be destroyed.
Context_free 6y ago
One of the most horrific actions in this genocide was when the Chinese Air force bombed a wedding in Xinjiang, killing 37 people - many innocent women and children. Oops! That was the US Air force 13 years ago, bombing a couple hundred kilometers southwest of Xinjiang, in a bordering country ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_ai... ). It's illustrative how Americans get up in arms about how the Chinese dealing with Muslim terrorists in their own country deal with human rights, while they have flown across the world to perform massacres in the country on Xinjiang's western border.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  There is a moral difference between accidental mistake and deliberate action.
  - refenestrator 6y ago
    The US has accidentally killed more muslims than China every single year for the last 20 years, though. At some point you have to wonder why all these accidents keep happening, and why they always serve US geopolitical interests.
    - marshmallow_12 6y ago
      Basically, the USA has strategic interests in Muslim countries. They therefore maintain a military presence there. There is a lot of fighting going on in those places, which means that sometimes the military is forced to respond, people get killed, sometimes. These accidents keep happening because the conflicts are ongoing. By the way, can you show statistics to back up your claims?
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Right, because everything wrong the American government does is by "mistake"...
    - 6y ago
bigpumpkin 6y ago
The Uyghur Genocide- The genocide where the Uyghur population grows faster than the Han population in Xinjiang. The genocide where a Uyghur actress- Dilraba Dilmurat remains one of the most popular actresses in China. The genocide where virtually no Covid infections occured in Xinjiang. The genocide where Uyghur workers can't find work because of American sanctions on Xinjiang cotton. The genocide where western countries claim genocide but don't even boycott the Beijing Winter Olympics. One has to wonder, if there's a genocide, why are countries sending their skiers to slide down some slope near Beijing?
- jedimind 6y ago
  The copy paste CCP talking points are almost comical by now. Everybody has a good grip on what's going on right now: https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8 https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    I'll be honest - this video is more cringe-y than the talking points. Is this the sort of stuff people are watching to decide their political opinions?
    - jedimind 6y ago
      What's really "cringey" is resorting to infantile insults to attack the validity of an informative video that dismantles your narrative instead of formulating actual arguments.
- CyanBird 6y ago
  And rather, why are the supposed genocide witnesses changing their stories so much? https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-but-also-bite-all-over-your-body-horror-stories-told-by-chinese-defectors-contin.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-bu...
  - seppin 6y ago
coliveira 6y ago
The American government is practicing genocide in Iraq among other places, but they have newspapers to cover up their crimes. Call me when this is solved.
- tomjen3 6y ago
  That would be extremely interesting, but it is an extremely serious accusation. Do you have a source? Note that genocide means the (attempted) deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group[0], shooting civilians deliberately or accidentally is not genocide. [0]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Right, because everything wrong the Am government is doing there is by accident, and hate towards Arabs is not a thing in the US... (sarcasm)
  - avaldeso 6y ago
    > Note that genocide means the (attempted) deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group[0], shooting civilians deliberately or accidentally is not genocide. That's semantics. Endless wars without a purpose and thousands of death civilians, what's the difference?. Drone flattened a school? Though shit. It's war so you cant call it genocide.
smoldesu 6y ago
I've always wondered how complicit companies like Apple are in the surveillance of these marginalized communities. Apple has never really addressed how exactly they operate in these regions, and their transparency report says that they turn over more information in China than nearly any other country. Hacker News probably won't like me for asking this, but: Is there blood on their hands?
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  Basically, they sub-contract it out to Chinese companies that do the actual tracking. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
  - smoldesu 6y ago
    I see, that's somewhat concerning. Thank you for sharing, I didn't know about the subcontracting bit.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Of course, but it's too late now (in their mind). They made a faustian bargain like most western countries and companies, hoping that china would change, but unfortunately they were wrong...
danShumway 6y ago
I don't want to tread outside of HN policy, but in the spirit of a comment I saw Dang leave on a thread about wanting "surprising" comments on posts that tend to go in predictable directions, the sheer predictability of what happens on threads that even mention the Uyghur as a people makes me wonder if there's a good data visualization blog post somewhere here. I would be interested in seeing someone explore what keywords seem to trigger the reaction, how fast it is, etc... HN has a pretty open API, so it feels like it wouldn't be too hard to make some interesting graphs on how the posts/comments evolve over time. Heck, I'd be interested in seeing a visualization like that for HN posts in general, but PRC posts are the ones where it seems the most like there's an obvious, reproducible process happening that could be explored and experimented on.
- minimaxir 6y ago
  I've done work in this area (example from 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425385) and it wouldn't be too terrible to do a data viz on comment count trajectory on a thread given a certain keyword. Granted, given the responses to my previous work, it would likely not be well-received and it might be too niche for the effort involved.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  It would likely look like a pixel perfect copy of data from a Tesla post.
- justaman 6y ago
  You're not the only one to notice this. Take all your downvotes as a sign this project needs to happen.
- 99_Woodcutting 6y ago
  It's okay, you are not violating HN policy. China is the sole exception to HN's "no controversial politics talk, only tech news" rule. They are an evil that must be destroyed.
jxramos 6y ago
What's the history here exactly, how and when did the Uyghur people get tangled up with the Chinese? Dumb question but how come they can't just leave or tell other's about what's going on?
- chinathrow1029 6y ago
  Here’s the history of it, straight from the horse’s mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBTT827b84 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBTT827b84
  - xster 6y ago
    If you want to understand Xinjiang, you have to first understand the First Island Chain (and China's recent development in MRBM).
- porphyra 6y ago
  It's a bit complicated. Some say the Uyghurs arrived in that area 900 or so years ago, some say they have been there for over 6400 years. Most likely, modern Uyghurs are descended from a mix of peoples, including the original ancient Uyghurs, the Tiele people, and some other peoples. China controlled the region about 2000 years ago during the Han Dynasty, but has since lost it and regained control several times throughout history. The region is historically important as it is on the Silk Road, and has seen a huge amount of wars. So it is likely that the populations there have been displaced several times. Apparently, modern Uyghurs are part of China because a plane crash killed many of the delegation of the Second East Turkestan Republic who were opposed to being part of China, leaving a surviving leader who joined the Chinese Communist Party.
- Paradigma11 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
  - jxramos 6y ago
    terrifying!
mytailorisrich 6y ago
This Institute was founded in 2019, is based in Washington D.C., was founded by someone who has ties to the US military, and is a division an relatively new private university that had their license almost revoked also in 2019... Pinch of salt needed here, at the very least.
- jkingsbery 6y ago
  I haven't read it all yet, but are there any (1) incorrect statements of fact or (2) specific opinions that seem unjustified leaps?
- berdario 6y ago
  A huge boulder of salt. The document has been produced in consultation with Adrian Zenz, and his work is referred several times. Zenz is widely known to have made numbers up, and in fact he has now been sued by Xinjiang farmers that complains of his defamation https://twitter.com/MazementC/status/1369104709072662532 https://twitter.com/MazementC/status/1369104709072662532 Frankly, this article is just war propaganda. Hopefully flagging it will help preventing more people being mislead by it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tim333 6y ago
So is there a legal framework to stop this? We could do with something like a court with economic sanctions.
pmurt7 6y ago
Why is this topic on HN?
- CyanBird 6y ago
  Because it is splattered all over western news outlets, and because HN over the last couple years has been seeing an influx of reddit users whom are not used to HN standards
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Because if the West takes a technological stance against products made in China it could have a huge impact on Tech. e.g. it might make sense to build a display making factory in the west, which hasn’t been done at scale in years.
zxcvbn4038 6y ago
The most interesting part of the Uyghur situation is that the world has had more or less the same reaction that they had to the Nazi persecution of the Jews in the 1930s. We know it is happening but we are not going to do anything. Arguably if not for Pearl Harbor the US wouldn't have interfered with Germany either.
- cjblomqvist 6y ago
  I'm not sure that people were as much aware as we are/could be today tbh. I had a few relatives (now dead) who supported the nazi politics (I'm Swedish) and my understanding is that it was not at all clear until after the war. Perhaps there were rumors, but facts were much more difficult to come by at that time (even though it's sometimes confusing nowadays too).
imtringued 6y ago
Instead of just blaming China and pointing fingers wouldn't it make sense to find new growth markets? I have read up on how China is investing in Africa. Wouldn't it be for the best to do the same and cut China as the middleman? After all, if African countries provide resources and even manufacture on site only to send the products to China why even bother with China?
amai 6y ago
I would like to see Chinas reaction, if Chinese people would be treated like the Uyghurs in a muslim country.
- xster 6y ago
  The Chinese people might, since the Organization of Islamic Cooperation [1] and Muslim majority countries in general [2] overwhelmingly support China in Xinjiang. [1] https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250 https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250 [2] https://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/thediplomat-2020-10-08.png https://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/thediplom... But of course you'll never hear of it in western media.
  - amai 6y ago
    So you don't deny that a genocide is happening to the Uyghur people? You just argue, if muslim countries are supporting China this is ok? Sorry comrade, that is the wrong answer. We will notify your leader and you will be scheduled for retraining soon.

302 points by lawrenceyan 6y ago

Both on the left and the right of US politics there has been fault found with China. I'm kinda surprised that no large brands have highlighted "No Chinese-made components" on their products. We embrace "blood-free" diamonds, why not Chinese-free merchandise for similar reasons?

conanbatt 6y ago
The chinese people that build products are not the ones with the concentration camps. Pressure has to be on the top of the political spectrum, not on the regular chinese citizen.
- munk-a 6y ago
  There are many ways to pressure the political spectrum, one of them is to take a stance on refusing import from the country - that will trickle up to the top of the spectrum. It's not particularly impactful for a company to do on it's own due to the size of the chinese economy (we'd need a coordinated national effort) but if the Uyghur Genocide is something you feel strongly about as a business owner you can probably relocate to other suppliers without that much of a raise in cost.
- tablespoon 6y ago
  > The chinese people that build products are not the ones with the concentration camps. Pressure has to be on the top of the political spectrum, not on the regular chinese citizen. That sounds nice, but your suggestion reduces the available options practically to zero (pretty much left with assassination and pointless sanctions against people with no foreign assets and diplomatic immunity when traveling). The people at the top of the political spectrum derive a large part of their power from the factories where those regular people work.
  - dheera 6y ago
    By the same you could say the same cops that are murdering black lives are funded in part by the taxes of Silicon Valley companies. You could say Guantanamo Bay was funded in part by your taxes. You could say all the ruckus in Nicaragua was funded by your taxes as well. I personally firmly stand by not punishing civilians and private/mostly-private/mostly-civilian-held companies for the actions of their governments. Also, governments are not monolithic. Would you punish the National Park Service for the actions of the NSA?
    - badRNG 6y ago
      Just to add to this, the US has long held an antagonistic relationship with the International Criminal Court (ICC), and has shielded and acquitted war criminals as recently as last year. Are we going to blame American civilians for this behavior?
      - rascul 6y ago
        Regarding the relationship the US has with the ICC, see the American Service-Members' Protection Act. > ASPA authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization has led the act to be nicknamed the "Hague Invasion Act". > The act prohibits federal, state and local governments and agencies (including courts and law enforcement agencies) from assisting the court. For example, it prohibits the extradition of any person from the U.S. to the Court; it prohibits the transfer of classified national security information and law enforcement information to the court. > The act also prohibits U.S. military aid to countries that are party to the court. However, exceptions are allowed for aid to NATO members, major non-NATO allies, Taiwan, and countries that have entered into "Article 98 agreements", agreeing not to hand over U.S. nationals to the court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
    - tablespoon 6y ago
      > By the same you could say the same cops that are murdering black lives are funded in part by the taxes of Silicon Valley companies. That's nonsensical, and completely ignores the idea of power/control. The Chinese government has direct control over Chinese manufacturers, and derives power from them. Derek Chauvin or the MPD (for example) do not control or derive power from a Bay Area tech company Google, and have only a very tenuous relationship with it (if any). > You could say Guantanamo Bay was funded in part by your taxes. You could say all the ruckus in Nicaragua was funded by your taxes as well. And if you want to boycott American goods over that, be my guest.
- tomjen3 6y ago
  That would be nice, but as I recall it some companies got caught with their fingers in the cookie jar, including Apple [0]. The screen on your iPhone might be made with Muslim slave labor. [0]: https://dailycaller.com/2020/12/29/apple-uyghur-lens-technology/ https://dailycaller.com/2020/12/29/apple-uyghur-lens-technol...
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Some of the chinese people that help build products are in the concentration camps. Not all of course.
  - conanbatt 6y ago
    Very much in favor of not consuming products out of concentration camps.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I know people are downvoting you, but you are correct. The only ones who can really apply power to China are state level actors. Nothing will come of boycotting Chinese products. If you want to buy "Made in the _________" then do it because you want to help the western (other?) economies rather than China, not because it will do anything to convince the Chinese government not to genocide a culture.
meepmorp 6y ago
Because diamonds are an exclusively luxury item that people can easily forego, and China is a whole country with a massive industrial base that makes a wide variety of products for cheap. If you have $10, you're more likely to buy a $2 item than a $5 one because 20% of your budget is easier to justify than 50%.
- mikece 6y ago
  I know it's difficult to buy a compute that doesn't have Chinese-made parts these days but not all parts of a computer are made in China. CPUs and memory chips are made in Taiwan and Korea; are there not makers of PCBs, power supplies, and the other parts of a computer such that you can get a computer to less than 10% Chinese parts? I didn't do a good job of expressing that raising awareness of the percentage of Chinese components as a differentiator would be a great marketing tool (similar to how cars sold in the US show what percentage of the parts in the car are US made versus imported).
  - wizzwizz4 6y ago
    Unless you've got to 0%, that remaining proportion is still leverage.
    - tachyonbeam 6y ago
      If you make a conscious choice, you can gradually reroute your supply chain.
      - Guest42 6y ago
        It’s very concerning that the responses on this issue are so timid. I think for individual corporations to reroute takes a bit of effort but that it would be possible for groups of corporations to do this with guidance from the government. Not doing this is funding the atrocities.
        wizzwizz4 6y ago
tablespoon 6y ago
> Both on the left and the right of US politics there has been fault found with China. I'm kinda surprised that no large brands have highlighted "No Chinese-made components" on their products. We embrace "blood-free" diamonds, why not Chinese-free merchandise for similar reasons? My guess is US corporations are too entangled with China, and it is too powerful and willing to retaliate. I wouldn't be surprised if a brand that did what you suggest would immediately be accused of "hurting the feelings of the Chinese people," and have its supply chains and markets disrupted.
praptak 6y ago
That might make some consumers feel a bit better but in the end it won't change anything. It's a political problem which can only be solved at the state level.
- mikece 6y ago
  And the state will only have the motivation to address the problem if they are facing a popular uprising -- either in fact or it's feared likely -- that could threaten the CCP as a the ruling order in China. There is a very long history in China of popular uprisings forcing political change which is why the reaction in Tienanmen Square in 1989 was so harsh and so swift (it's also why the unrest in Hong Kong is being put down the way it is). If any unrest doesn't end quickly and stay localized the CCP fears it will become nationwide before countermeasures are taken. And if we, as consumers, make it clear that we will be buying Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Japanese, Korean, Indian -- ANYTHING that isn't Chinese -- it will cause a reaction in the CCP (I just hope that reaction isn't a military first-strike).
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    China is not going to engage in a military first-strike because some consumers stop buying products that are made there. Somewhat surprised it needs to be said, but I guess as tensions are getting higher, people just say more and more ridiculous things.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    > (I just hope that reaction isn't a military first-strike) Whenever I read statements like this I wonder who people think China might attack militarily. The only one I can think of that wouldn't either cost them more than they'd gain (and even then it still probably would) or turn into a suicidal act would be Taiwan. Any other neighboring nation offers them little value with respect to the cost of war, and nations like the US and Russia could create such an expansive war that China would lose all the political and economic ground it's gained this century, and probably more.
    - 6y ago
ISL 6y ago
One need-not single out a nation-state in "-free" designations. If WTO membership and global free-trade were predicated on certain civil-rights ground rules like: a free press, demonstrable rule of law, democratically elected governance, due process, and a complete absence of concentration camps, the world would be a better place. Not only would it address the plight of the Uyghur people and the travesty that is occurring in Hong Kong, but it might grant the inmates at Guantanamo fair and open hearings. Bring on the "oppression-free" consumer certifications. I am certain that there is a market.
PraetorianGourd 6y ago
I just bought a new down pillow, and there was a bunch of advertising about ethical down, and that the geese were treated well and the such. And if I buy a down pillow from a place that wasn't certified, I was a monster. Which is important! But I don't see any such admonishments against buying face masks or laptop parts made by Uighur slaves/prisoners. Edit: I should note, I am saying it is disgusting that we turn a blind eye to human suffering in the name of cheaper products and higher profit margins.
phreack 6y ago
Maybe a lack of signal? I would certainly buy a more expensive product that's certified not to be made in genocidal or slave-labor countries. I've seen lists of 'blood-free' chocolate brands online before and they certainly had an effect.
tomjen3 6y ago
I don't think there is a single large brand that truthfully _could_ advertise that.
- YarickR2 6y ago
  Exactly, and competitors could easily prove such claims as lies, by pointing out second level suppliers being affiliated with China; guilty by association. We're effectively trapped in one cage with China, with no easy way out.
bjt2n3904 6y ago
Atop what everyone else says, I reckon it would take all of five minutes for Twitter to reframe it as xenophobic prejudice against China. Doesn't matter that it isn't true. It sounds true, and that's all that matters.
- president 6y ago
  You got downvoted but that's essentially what happened with Covid. You're not even allowed to say the original name anymore [1][2]. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/01/26/memorandum-condemning-and-combating-racism-xenophobia-and-intolerance-against-asian-americans-and-pacific-islanders-in-the-united-states/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action... [2] https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/23074/ https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/23074/
  - munk-a 6y ago
    I don't know about that - I usually refer to it as COVID-19 but nobody looks askance if I mention Coronavirus.
NoOneNew 6y ago
I do agree, but I would say it's an infrastructure problem than choice. Most components and "stuff", well, comes from China. Going elsewhere is not marginally more expensive, its significantly more. This means your political stance, though righteous, will bleed dry compared to those who would actually go for the "blood diamonds" for the lower cost. It takes the consumer to also make the choice. The big arguement in the early 2000s on the fear of too much China reliance is exactly this. Can we stand a moral ground against a country whose teet we depend on? Too many companies are disgusting unwilling to. I dont watch anything hollywood (which has been silly easy oddly) over the whole self censorship to appease the chinese market. Any company that kowtows to chinese pressure for any little thing is on my shit list. But I'm just one dude. Most people dont care or are unwilling. At that, I know my computer, phone and a number of other things came from China. Anytime I can get anywhere but China, I go for it. It's real difficult. Unloading our manufacturing wasn't smart and we are reaping what we sowed.
- fakedang 6y ago
  I'm doing my part by pirating Disney movies and encouraging anyone and everyone around me to pirate them too. Do Netflix and Amazon also engage in appeasement? Those are the only two accounts we maintain now.
Chazprime 6y ago
I think that's likely because the quality of electronic components coming out of China has improved considerably while still being less expensive than manufacturing locally.
colonelpopcorn 6y ago
The cult of the MBA and their sacrament of cost-cutting measures?
fossuser 6y ago
South Park's Band In China episode had this exactly right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_in_China Earlier last year when people were joking about Apple not showing iPhones getting broken in their shows on Apple TV, the less talked about but much more alarming bit was their comment about China. "Today’s report also claims that Eddy Cue has told Apple TV+ leadership that “the two things we will never do are hard-core nudity and China,” referring to potentially angering China with any of its original TV shows or movies." https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/13/apple-tv-plus-gawker-show/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/12/13/apple-tv-plus-gawker-show/ Does this mean no news on Apple TV? That soft-censorship for corporate economic interest reasons will allow the CCP to do terrible things because companies are incentivized to ignore it/suppress speech around it? Apple also capitulates to the CCP, allowing them to host iCloud on CCP servers in country. They also remove the Taiwanese flag from Chinese iPhones, and remove podcast apps/content from China. On one side you could argue this inter-economic dependence lowers the likelihood of war. It is not without an ethical cost though. Is genocide an acceptable cost for stability and compromising your principles? Is access to the Chinese market worth that? https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html The outcome of the South Park episode: "In response to the episode's criticism of the Chinese government, South Park has been entirely banned in China, including on its streaming services and social media platforms. In October 2019, insiders told Bloomberg that Apple, which has a significant portion of its users and manufacturers in China, was reportedly unlikely to bid for the streaming rights of the series due to the China ban."
eddywebs 6y ago
There is already a movement going on in India to boycott Chinese made goods. Issue or not an issue, it is imperative that manufacturing has redundancies like Apple making phones both in China and India.
ahthat 6y ago
It’s a little incendiary and perhaps would look a little racist to label things “Chinese free” or “Not made in China”. Objects should simply continue to label their country of origin. If the population really is interested in generally removing themselves from commerce with China, there will be a tendency to avoid products with the “Made in China” label. How great this tendency is will depend on how much the population values a commercial separation. Of course, it is ridiculous to assume that any individual would be completely aware of the degree to which their lives are ultimately influenced by commerce with China via their consumption of goods, let the alone the entire population. However, we can still expect the change in commerce with China to reflect the degree to which the rest of society values not doing business with those business entities that prosper in the spirit of mutual benefit with a regime that practices perverse and backwards acts against humanity entirely unbefitting of any modern world power. Anyone man of commerce with a conscience must ultimately conclude to some degree that cooperating with entities under such a regime is not ideal, if simply for the sake of attempting to do good rather than evil. However, any man or woman of reason must realize that the leaders in international commerce that make these decisions must ultimately weigh this fact against a multitude of other factors. Their service most likely is foremost to the continuing survival of the business they represent, which in turn is dependent on consumption of the goods they sell. In the case of business with China, we can assume this to be goods sold elsewhere in society. These members of society have multilayered responsibilities in their responsibilities to society. Yes, to a degree they are responsible for the strife in China— however, they are also responsible to all the members of their supply chain, fellow colleagues and employees, business partners, and then also their consumers, not to mention their dependents and other contracts such as debt obligations and taxes. These are realities for society members working in the integrated world economy. To quit business altogether means disrupting these chains. However, if society values not cooperating with that particular system that sins against mankind enough, it would by degrees remove its consumption of the goods that arrive from that system, and furthermore by degrees shame and diminish the reputations of any partner to that specific system — the greater we as a society value liberty and justice for all, in both the arenas of physical personhood and in business, the more we will pressure the partners of the system and then ultimately the system itself to cease the contraptions diminishing to our natures. The degree to which society truly values these noble aims will be shown by the collective decisions and actions of that society. In other words, in a free society, by which the actions of men and women are freely chosen, the degree to which that society as a collective values freedom will influence the degrees to which those who practice barbarism can continue doing so.
fiftyfifty 6y ago
I don't think we'll see individual brands take action unless there is significantly more consumer pressure in the west. For many manufacturers it could take years for them to create the manufacturing capacity somewhere else. This is a tricky situation, any military action has the potential to cause more death and suffering. Economic sanctions seem like the only reasonable path forward, but because of the entanglement of China with virtually everyone's economies it is likely to hurt the US and Europe as well. Is the west willing to suffer a severe recession to help the Uyghurs?
dillondoyle 6y ago
Because it's hard and there aren't yet enough legal consequences for the use of this concentration camp prisoner labor. While I agree we must get much stronger incentives/laws on our side we can't get distracted and pass all the moral consequences/imperative for action onto our side. It's less than half the equation. We need to tackle the other side of this problem because CCP is directly responsible. Bottom line Xi is perpetrating this genocide. That's the main fault & we can't 'offshore' 100% of the blame onto our corporations. Even if we did get perfect decoupling I don't think that would be enough incentive to change China's behavior? Morally, I don't think that alone is a strong enough reaction to these horrors and threats to Democracy. We must hold the CCP & Xi directly responsible
beaunative 6y ago
We don't really need diamonds, and the freedom loving people of the great united states of america do not produce most of things they use on a daily basis. They can all talk, but when a milk tea in San Francisco costs more than an earphone shipped from China, what's the choice gonna be?
wombatmobile 6y ago
The idea of boycotting goods from manufacturers whose enterprises are supported by state perpetrators of genocide might appeal to lots of people who are humanists. In practice, that would mean not buying anything that has a connection to a list of countries that includes China, Indonesia, Belgium, and several countries which I'm not going to list because the conversation would become unmanageable, just as the Uyghur conversation would become unmanageable within China. If China were the only guilty state in the world, a boycott would be a different proposition to what it is. Even then, it's not guaranteed to be effective because the way things work psychologically, commercially, and geopolitically. Even though 99% of people consider themselves humanists, they are able to compartmentalise their feelings in surprising ways when it comes to the acquisition of consumer goods, energy, copper, gold, diamonds, and real estate.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
stjohnswarts 6y ago
Because boycotts don't work on this scale. This is nation state level stuff. Only the US government can apply any pressure here on a scale that makes a difference. The best thing you can do is vote for politicians that aren't afraid of China. If you want to buy American then do it because you want to buy American and help the economy and your fellow Americans not because you want to punish China.
SkyMarshal 6y ago
Because US corporations want access to China's market, which is 2x-4x the size of the US's. Criticizing China or the CPC will get them expelled.
99_Woodcutting 6y ago
False. The right claims "Beijing Biden" is a sleeper agent for the CCP who is selling America out to China. Just check the comment section of ben shapiro youtube videos or the /r/conservative subreddit. In the minds of the right, only Republicans are truly anti-China. They think the left is giving in to China.

thrw 6y ago

How can I filter out products made in China on Amazon?

meepmorp 6y ago
By not using Amazon, tbh.
mikece 6y ago
Years ago (30 years already?) if you shopped at Walmart you would see red, white and blue stickers proudly proclaiming "100% American Made" on items that were just that. If you buy a new car in the US the dealer sticker lists what percentage of the parts in the car are US-made versus imported. Labels that show what percentage of parts come from China could be a powerful marketing tool.
maxwell 6y ago
https://wecultivate.us https://wecultivate.us
- smoldesu 6y ago
  > Starting April 1st 2021, we will charge 15% of all sales through Cultivate. Man, what a great way to support American business...
betterunix2 6y ago
I doubt you could for the majority of products. Modern supply chains are global and China has a massive economy and thus a massive role in those supply chains.
exolymph 6y ago
You can't, obviously. Why would you expect to be able to do that?
99_Woodcutting 6y ago
Stop using Amazon entirely. They are shills and enablers for the CCP.

dirtyid 6y ago

Report rehashes boring Zenz talking points, nothing original. Most interesting tidbit. Newlines is funded by FairfaxU of Virginia, a private school with ~150 students and ~60 staff (read: there's external funding). Newlines Institute is also rebrand Center for Global Policy (CGP), tradename for International Institute of Islamic Thought... linked to the Muslim Brotherhood [0]. And owned by Mar-Jac, a front for SAAR Foundation, a massive source of funding of extreme terrorism whose US proxies were heavily investigated post 911, including IIIT with a couple prosecutions. Hence the rebranding. Most of their US proxies are located in Virginia, a recent of Mar-Jac investments in private schools was linked to Turkish Gulenist, which Gulf council countries has designated as terrorists... including Saudi. So the most interesting extrapolation for me is that some wealthy Saudi group(s) is interested in pushing genocide narrative via US proxies despite Saudi support for China at UN and MbS purging major funders of terrorist groups. Western MSM is whitewashing this as "Independent DC think tank". Real question is if this is Muslim extremist groups pursing their own interests through obfuscation or if they're coordinating with US intelligence, it's Virginia after all. US was willing to delist Uyghur terrorist groups, they're willing to work with OG Al Qaeda funders to destabilize. MSM is currently using "Independent DC think tank" label for front funded by the same groups that was responsible for Al Qaeda. Desperate times for propaganda. [0] https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2020/11/12/new-muslim-brotherhood-linked-think-tank-tries-to-launder-credentials-fails/ https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2020/11/12/new-musli...

AndrewBissell 6y ago
Nayirah testimony, WMDs in Iraq, the Libyan rape allegations, Syrian chemical attacks -- eventually you would think people would catch on to this playbook. I don't doubt there are serious human rights violations taking place in Xinjiang, but the term "genocide" is ridiculous, an allegation being deployed in support of the aims of U.S. empire.
- LazyBoyAccount 6y ago
  >but the term "genocide" is ridiculous, an allegation being deployed in support of the aims of U.S. empire. So why doesn't China allow independent investigations into what's really taking place? Maybe if they weren't hiding the truth people wouldn't be so quick to fill in the holes with their own stories.

carnagecity786 6y ago

I feel like I keep seeing headlines like this, but nothing really changes. No country has the power, authority or even the international political weight to stand up to China. In generations to come we're going to look back at this moment and marvel at how everyone knew it was happening (unlike Nazi Germany where the allies only found out towards the end of the war) and yet done nothing about it. The current US administration cares more about curbing China's international political and financial influence rather than perhaps the biggest humanitarian issue since the Rwandan Genocide

ipnon 6y ago
If we compare China to Nazi Germany, the first legislation acts against Jewish Germans began in 1933, 12 years before the end of the regime. The rest of world was already aware of the abuse of Jewish Germans because they began to flee the country at that early time. Unfortunately, it is one thing to denounce an act and another to end it.

cletus 6y ago

I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling. The only real defense here is that the reports of it happening are untrue or exaggerated and I think at this point we have ample evidence that's not the case. So let's set that issue aside and look at the more general problem of polarization as that has wider implications. Fact is, most people in the US (as one example) don't give a shit about genocide halfway around the world beyond maybe some slacktivism in liking a social media post about it every now and again. So I'm not Chinese but as an outsider looking in who is not an expert by any stretch of the imagination this is what I see: I see a culture that within living memory came out of a period of severe instability, hunger and turmoil. China now under pseudo-Communist rule has entered a period of stability and prosperity for a significant portion of the population. Because that's so recent there seems to be (heavy IMHO here) a cultural fear of that going prosperity going away. I don't want to trivialize this by any means but you see something roughly analogous to this with people who grew up poor vs those who didn't, even if those people who grew up poor have money now. Just having that experience of growing up without food or housing security changes you. It changes your relationship to money. So what I see is there's an awful lot of Chinese people who look at any issue relating to China through this lens: anything remotely critical of China is an attack on that prosperity. So anything critical of China on HN (comments or posts) will attract a certain level of automatic downvote on any hot button issue (eg Uyghurs, Taiwan, Hong Kong, the origins of Covid-19). The lesson here I think is in how dangerous things become when a large group of people become fearful. As an example, in the US today you have polarization because people fan the flames of fear. The Trump base is one who fears their way of life is under attack, exploited quite masterfully where any demonstrable proof that Trump himself is by any objective measure a horrible human being gets labelled as "fake news" and people eat it up because that's what they want to believe. And they want to believe that because they've bought into this culture of fear. I just hope we're not all screwed.

CyanBird 6y ago
> I think any reasonable person can look at what's happening with the Uyghurs and only come to the conclusion that it's appalling Maybe, yeah Detention for fear of terrorism is bad when the US did it with Japanese born citizens in Wwii and it is bad when it was done in Guantánamo, and it is bad now That said, why are the supposed witnesses to these crimes changing their histories and narratives to make it seem like a B type horror movie rather than stick to their original telling of it? I can't but remember the Nariyah Testimony in front of Congress https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-but-also-bite-all-over-your-body-horror-stories-told-by-chinese-defectors-contin.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-bu...

hertzrat 6y ago

> China has simultaneously pursued a dual systematic strategy of forcibly sterilizing Uyghur women of childbearing age and interning Uyghur men of child-bearing years, > According to Government statistics and directives, including to “carry out family planning sterilization,” “lower fertility levels,” and ”leave no blind spots,” > China began building a vast network of massive State- run, highly securitized boarding schools and orphanages to confine Uyghur children, including infants, full time. > local authorities have eliminated Uyghur education, destroyed Uyghur architecture and household features, and damaged, altered, or completely demolished the vast majority of mosques and sacred sites in the region, I had not heard of any of this before today. The news only talked about internment, surveillance, and forced labour. Edit: Why the flood of downvotes? Are the quotes offending people? They are directly from the executive summary of the report

danShumway 6y ago
Threads like this aren't going to reach the top of HN very often (or in my experience, other social networking sites either), they get flagged and downvoted to oblivion. HN policy prohibits me from speculating why, but you can fill in the blanks. There have been multiple media reports, but it's reasonable you might not have run into them outside of the context of "the PRC is vaguely doing something bad to Uyghurs". But yeah, the reality of what's going on is kind of horrifying, and I think the reaction from other nations (including the US) has been underwhelming.
- antibuddy 6y ago
  I can also fill out the blanks without violating HN policy. Nobody wants political controversity on their site because it attracts a lot of related problems. It is obiviously part of the spiral of silence and therefore I don't like it much, but one can kind of understand why.
  - 99_Woodcutting 6y ago
    China is the sole exception for our "no politics, only tech" rule. They are a unique evil that must be destroyed.

Context_free 6y ago

One of the most horrific actions in this genocide was when the Chinese Air force bombed a wedding in Xinjiang, killing 37 people - many innocent women and children. Oops! That was the US Air force 13 years ago, bombing a couple hundred kilometers southwest of Xinjiang, in a bordering country ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_ai... ). It's illustrative how Americans get up in arms about how the Chinese dealing with Muslim terrorists in their own country deal with human rights, while they have flown across the world to perform massacres in the country on Xinjiang's western border.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
There is a moral difference between accidental mistake and deliberate action.
- refenestrator 6y ago
  The US has accidentally killed more muslims than China every single year for the last 20 years, though. At some point you have to wonder why all these accidents keep happening, and why they always serve US geopolitical interests.
  - marshmallow_12 6y ago
    Basically, the USA has strategic interests in Muslim countries. They therefore maintain a military presence there. There is a lot of fighting going on in those places, which means that sometimes the military is forced to respond, people get killed, sometimes. These accidents keep happening because the conflicts are ongoing. By the way, can you show statistics to back up your claims?
- coliveira 6y ago
  Right, because everything wrong the American government does is by "mistake"...
  - 6y ago

bigpumpkin 6y ago

The Uyghur Genocide- The genocide where the Uyghur population grows faster than the Han population in Xinjiang. The genocide where a Uyghur actress- Dilraba Dilmurat remains one of the most popular actresses in China. The genocide where virtually no Covid infections occured in Xinjiang. The genocide where Uyghur workers can't find work because of American sanctions on Xinjiang cotton. The genocide where western countries claim genocide but don't even boycott the Beijing Winter Olympics. One has to wonder, if there's a genocide, why are countries sending their skiers to slide down some slope near Beijing?

jedimind 6y ago
The copy paste CCP talking points are almost comical by now. Everybody has a good grip on what's going on right now: https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8 https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  I'll be honest - this video is more cringe-y than the talking points. Is this the sort of stuff people are watching to decide their political opinions?
  - jedimind 6y ago
    What's really "cringey" is resorting to infantile insults to attack the validity of an informative video that dismantles your narrative instead of formulating actual arguments.
CyanBird 6y ago
And rather, why are the supposed genocide witnesses changing their stories so much? https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-but-also-bite-all-over-your-body-horror-stories-told-by-chinese-defectors-contin.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/02/they-dont-only-rape-bu...
- seppin 6y ago

coliveira 6y ago

The American government is practicing genocide in Iraq among other places, but they have newspapers to cover up their crimes. Call me when this is solved.

tomjen3 6y ago
That would be extremely interesting, but it is an extremely serious accusation. Do you have a source? Note that genocide means the (attempted) deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group[0], shooting civilians deliberately or accidentally is not genocide. [0]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide
- coliveira 6y ago
  Right, because everything wrong the Am government is doing there is by accident, and hate towards Arabs is not a thing in the US... (sarcasm)
- avaldeso 6y ago
  > Note that genocide means the (attempted) deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group[0], shooting civilians deliberately or accidentally is not genocide. That's semantics. Endless wars without a purpose and thousands of death civilians, what's the difference?. Drone flattened a school? Though shit. It's war so you cant call it genocide.

smoldesu 6y ago

I've always wondered how complicit companies like Apple are in the surveillance of these marginalized communities. Apple has never really addressed how exactly they operate in these regions, and their transparency report says that they turn over more information in China than nearly any other country. Hacker News probably won't like me for asking this, but: Is there blood on their hands?

whimsicalism 6y ago
Basically, they sub-contract it out to Chinese companies that do the actual tracking. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
- smoldesu 6y ago
  I see, that's somewhat concerning. Thank you for sharing, I didn't know about the subcontracting bit.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Of course, but it's too late now (in their mind). They made a faustian bargain like most western countries and companies, hoping that china would change, but unfortunately they were wrong...

danShumway 6y ago

I don't want to tread outside of HN policy, but in the spirit of a comment I saw Dang leave on a thread about wanting "surprising" comments on posts that tend to go in predictable directions, the sheer predictability of what happens on threads that even mention the Uyghur as a people makes me wonder if there's a good data visualization blog post somewhere here. I would be interested in seeing someone explore what keywords seem to trigger the reaction, how fast it is, etc... HN has a pretty open API, so it feels like it wouldn't be too hard to make some interesting graphs on how the posts/comments evolve over time. Heck, I'd be interested in seeing a visualization like that for HN posts in general, but PRC posts are the ones where it seems the most like there's an obvious, reproducible process happening that could be explored and experimented on.

minimaxir 6y ago
I've done work in this area (example from 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425385) and it wouldn't be too terrible to do a data viz on comment count trajectory on a thread given a certain keyword. Granted, given the responses to my previous work, it would likely not be well-received and it might be too niche for the effort involved.
Daho0n 6y ago
It would likely look like a pixel perfect copy of data from a Tesla post.
justaman 6y ago
You're not the only one to notice this. Take all your downvotes as a sign this project needs to happen.
99_Woodcutting 6y ago
It's okay, you are not violating HN policy. China is the sole exception to HN's "no controversial politics talk, only tech news" rule. They are an evil that must be destroyed.

jxramos 6y ago

What's the history here exactly, how and when did the Uyghur people get tangled up with the Chinese? Dumb question but how come they can't just leave or tell other's about what's going on?

chinathrow1029 6y ago
Here’s the history of it, straight from the horse’s mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBTT827b84 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBTT827b84
- xster 6y ago
  If you want to understand Xinjiang, you have to first understand the First Island Chain (and China's recent development in MRBM).
porphyra 6y ago
It's a bit complicated. Some say the Uyghurs arrived in that area 900 or so years ago, some say they have been there for over 6400 years. Most likely, modern Uyghurs are descended from a mix of peoples, including the original ancient Uyghurs, the Tiele people, and some other peoples. China controlled the region about 2000 years ago during the Han Dynasty, but has since lost it and regained control several times throughout history. The region is historically important as it is on the Silk Road, and has seen a huge amount of wars. So it is likely that the populations there have been displaced several times. Apparently, modern Uyghurs are part of China because a plane crash killed many of the delegation of the Second East Turkestan Republic who were opposed to being part of China, leaving a surviving leader who joined the Chinese Communist Party.
Paradigma11 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
- jxramos 6y ago
  terrifying!

mytailorisrich 6y ago

This Institute was founded in 2019, is based in Washington D.C., was founded by someone who has ties to the US military, and is a division an relatively new private university that had their license almost revoked also in 2019... Pinch of salt needed here, at the very least.

jkingsbery 6y ago
I haven't read it all yet, but are there any (1) incorrect statements of fact or (2) specific opinions that seem unjustified leaps?
berdario 6y ago
A huge boulder of salt. The document has been produced in consultation with Adrian Zenz, and his work is referred several times. Zenz is widely known to have made numbers up, and in fact he has now been sued by Xinjiang farmers that complains of his defamation https://twitter.com/MazementC/status/1369104709072662532 https://twitter.com/MazementC/status/1369104709072662532 Frankly, this article is just war propaganda. Hopefully flagging it will help preventing more people being mislead by it.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tim333 6y ago

So is there a legal framework to stop this? We could do with something like a court with economic sanctions.

pmurt7 6y ago

Why is this topic on HN?

CyanBird 6y ago
Because it is splattered all over western news outlets, and because HN over the last couple years has been seeing an influx of reddit users whom are not used to HN standards
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Because if the West takes a technological stance against products made in China it could have a huge impact on Tech. e.g. it might make sense to build a display making factory in the west, which hasn’t been done at scale in years.

zxcvbn4038 6y ago

The most interesting part of the Uyghur situation is that the world has had more or less the same reaction that they had to the Nazi persecution of the Jews in the 1930s. We know it is happening but we are not going to do anything. Arguably if not for Pearl Harbor the US wouldn't have interfered with Germany either.

cjblomqvist 6y ago
I'm not sure that people were as much aware as we are/could be today tbh. I had a few relatives (now dead) who supported the nazi politics (I'm Swedish) and my understanding is that it was not at all clear until after the war. Perhaps there were rumors, but facts were much more difficult to come by at that time (even though it's sometimes confusing nowadays too).

imtringued 6y ago

Instead of just blaming China and pointing fingers wouldn't it make sense to find new growth markets? I have read up on how China is investing in Africa. Wouldn't it be for the best to do the same and cut China as the middleman? After all, if African countries provide resources and even manufacture on site only to send the products to China why even bother with China?

amai 6y ago

I would like to see Chinas reaction, if Chinese people would be treated like the Uyghurs in a muslim country.

xster 6y ago
The Chinese people might, since the Organization of Islamic Cooperation [1] and Muslim majority countries in general [2] overwhelmingly support China in Xinjiang. [1] https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250 https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250 [2] https://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/thediplomat-2020-10-08.png https://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/thediplom... But of course you'll never hear of it in western media.
- amai 6y ago
  So you don't deny that a genocide is happening to the Uyghur people? You just argue, if muslim countries are supporting China this is ok? Sorry comrade, that is the wrong answer. We will notify your leader and you will be scheduled for retraining soon.