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> actively building the largest and most advanced factories on every major continent They are not the most advanced factories, not even close. Tesla uses much

> actively building the largest and most advanced factories on every major continent They are not the most advanced factories, not even close. Tesla uses much more human labor per vehicle than its competitors; the "alien dreadnought" never materialized. "Toyota remains well ahead of Tesla in terms of manufacturing efficiency, producing more vehicles per employee, while utilizing its fixed assets and inventory more effectively": https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/02/11/comparing-tesla-with-toyota/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/02/11/co... > disrupting the entire automobile industry such that even jaguar is going full electric by 2025 The industry shift towards electric vehicles is because it's finally becoming profitable to make them. This is largely due to a dramatic reduction in battery costs which is driven by R&D for smartphones, not cars. Personally I don't believe Tesla has much to do with it. > mainstreaming self-driving They are mainstreaming dangerous driver assistance technologies well before they are ready because they've been pre-selling "full self driving" for years. They are nowhere close to completing an autonomous cross-country drive, something they promised would be done five years ago. Waymo is far ahead of Tesla on self-driving technology. > cutting the costs of residential solar in half I'm not sure there's even any point in arguing this because solar is an insignificant fraction of their business. They are a car manufacturer, nothing more. But in my personal opinion, I think the SolarCity acquisition was a fraudulent bailout of Musk's family, the solar shingles were mostly a sham, and Tesla has no significant proprietary solar technology at all.

Judgmentality 6y ago
> The industry shift towards electric vehicles is because it's finally becoming profitable to make them. This is largely due to a dramatic reduction in battery costs which is driven by R&D for smartphones, not cars. Personally I don't believe Tesla has much to do with it. As much as I agree with the rest of your comment, I have to disagree with this part. Yes, there is a shift towards profitability with electric vehicles now and that has a lot to do with battery advancements from smartphones. But EVs still aren't exactly profitable, and when they are it's usually because of tax credits (granted that still counts, but it's important to mention). It's important to remember traditional automobile manufacturers have decades of accumulated knowledge from spending hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars, on R&D for the internal combustion engine. Their processes are set up for it. Their tooling is set up for it. And more importantly, their business model which almost always focuses on maintenance costs is set up for it. It's like how Kodak invented the digital camera, but decided to continue with their legacy business because they were already set up for it. There are many things I dislike about Tesla. But I genuinely believe they are responsible for bringing EVs to market ~3 years before it would have happened without them.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  > There are many things I dislike about Tesla. But I genuinely believe they are responsible for bringing EVs to market ~3 years before it would have happened without them. This feels vaguely ahistorical. The best-selling electric car platform in Europe today is the Renault Z-E platform (or at least it was; VW may have overtaken by now). That platform was announced in 2009 or so, with the first cars in 2011, and the first Zoe (the popular car based on the platform) in 2012. The Nissan Leaf came out in 2010. The Tesla Model S came out in 2012. So given that, it's hard to see what Tesla had to do with it, really. Some of the most popular models came to market BEFORE Tesla (if you ignore the roadster, a contemporary of the Z-E concepts, which you almost certainly should).
  - Pyramus 6y ago
    I'm a Tesla skeptic like parent but I believe parent is right: Tesla has advanced the EV market by maybe 3-5 years. You are correct about timings. What you are missing is 1) Adoption and perception. The public and mainstream media love 'EV Jesus' and his perceived dedication to 'the mission'. 2) User experience, in particular charging. Tesla still today has the biggest charger network and charging is a crucial remedy for range anxiety.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      Honestly if either the brand or charging were as big a deal as all that, I'd expect them to be doing better in Europe. The US seems to be the only remaining territory where they're the market leader, and they may be a bit stickier there, but it's not clear that EU sales of, say, the Zoe or id3 would be any different in the parallel universe where Tesla never existed. Those sell because they've hit a price/range point, and that's more due to the relentless slow progress of battery technology than anything else. Not to say they're not a significant electric car manufacturer, but "coming third in the biggest western market, behind Renault, who apparently still exist" is not a great argument for them being either a market leader or having a particularly sticky brand.
  - chii 6y ago
elif 6y ago
Find another factory which produces something as advanced as a car, which also produces its own battery cells, produces its own motor, and I'll consider it as advanced of a factory. Giga factory is a revolution in manufacturing that cannot be encapsulated in your efficiency metrics. Also consider that the tesla gigafactory will build the entire frame and body of the vehicle as one part in under a second. Nothing close to this is being done, because the machines to do it are being invented for tesla. If you'd like to discuss your other points with me, i'm down. But I don't like the "I disagree with every one of your points so here's a pdf" format

Judgmentality 6y ago

> The industry shift towards electric vehicles is because it's finally becoming profitable to make them. This is largely due to a dramatic reduction in battery costs which is driven by R&D for smartphones, not cars. Personally I don't believe Tesla has much to do with it. As much as I agree with the rest of your comment, I have to disagree with this part. Yes, there is a shift towards profitability with electric vehicles now and that has a lot to do with battery advancements from smartphones. But EVs still aren't exactly profitable, and when they are it's usually because of tax credits (granted that still counts, but it's important to mention). It's important to remember traditional automobile manufacturers have decades of accumulated knowledge from spending hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars, on R&D for the internal combustion engine. Their processes are set up for it. Their tooling is set up for it. And more importantly, their business model which almost always focuses on maintenance costs is set up for it. It's like how Kodak invented the digital camera, but decided to continue with their legacy business because they were already set up for it. There are many things I dislike about Tesla. But I genuinely believe they are responsible for bringing EVs to market ~3 years before it would have happened without them.

rsynnott 6y ago
> There are many things I dislike about Tesla. But I genuinely believe they are responsible for bringing EVs to market ~3 years before it would have happened without them. This feels vaguely ahistorical. The best-selling electric car platform in Europe today is the Renault Z-E platform (or at least it was; VW may have overtaken by now). That platform was announced in 2009 or so, with the first cars in 2011, and the first Zoe (the popular car based on the platform) in 2012. The Nissan Leaf came out in 2010. The Tesla Model S came out in 2012. So given that, it's hard to see what Tesla had to do with it, really. Some of the most popular models came to market BEFORE Tesla (if you ignore the roadster, a contemporary of the Z-E concepts, which you almost certainly should).
- Pyramus 6y ago
  I'm a Tesla skeptic like parent but I believe parent is right: Tesla has advanced the EV market by maybe 3-5 years. You are correct about timings. What you are missing is 1) Adoption and perception. The public and mainstream media love 'EV Jesus' and his perceived dedication to 'the mission'. 2) User experience, in particular charging. Tesla still today has the biggest charger network and charging is a crucial remedy for range anxiety.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    Honestly if either the brand or charging were as big a deal as all that, I'd expect them to be doing better in Europe. The US seems to be the only remaining territory where they're the market leader, and they may be a bit stickier there, but it's not clear that EU sales of, say, the Zoe or id3 would be any different in the parallel universe where Tesla never existed. Those sell because they've hit a price/range point, and that's more due to the relentless slow progress of battery technology than anything else. Not to say they're not a significant electric car manufacturer, but "coming third in the biggest western market, behind Renault, who apparently still exist" is not a great argument for them being either a market leader or having a particularly sticky brand.
- chii 6y ago

elif 6y ago

Find another factory which produces something as advanced as a car, which also produces its own battery cells, produces its own motor, and I'll consider it as advanced of a factory. Giga factory is a revolution in manufacturing that cannot be encapsulated in your efficiency metrics. Also consider that the tesla gigafactory will build the entire frame and body of the vehicle as one part in under a second. Nothing close to this is being done, because the machines to do it are being invented for tesla. If you'd like to discuss your other points with me, i'm down. But I don't like the "I disagree with every one of your points so here's a pdf" format