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Good. I hope against hope that Amazon's publicity blitz on this backfires. I was a little astonished at how ham-fisted their messaging was: "Don't let evil unio

Good. I hope against hope that Amazon's publicity blitz on this backfires. I was a little astonished at how ham-fisted their messaging was: "Don't let evil unions take your dues money!" It felt like they thought their workers were stupid, or at least, easily connived into making choices against their own interest. I think there's a good chance they get proven wrong. Edit, to add: An employee could absolutely decide against a union on ideological grounds or because it doesn't make sense for their personal situation - my point here is more that Amazon's approach seems to think their employees are rubes who will do whatever the bright posters say they should.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Well, the reason their messaging can be so direct is that there's a legitimate difference of opinion here. I'd kinda argue that your description of Amazon can be better applied to union organizers, who seem to have a pervasive attitude that any worker who opposes a union must have been tricked or bullied into their position. Some people legitimately believe that a union might be bad for their interests, and they're the ones Amazon is trying to reach - the confidently pro-union employees will probably vote for one regardless of how Amazon presents their case.
- ivraatiems 6y ago
  > I'd kinda argue that your description of Amazon can be better applied to union organizers, who seem to have a pervasive attitude that any worker who opposes a union must have been tricked or bullied into their position I can't speak for union organizers, as I'm not one, but I don't think this is exactly how one sees people who're acting against their own interests. It's more of a frustration/confusion/concern they don't have all the facts. It's absolutely possible for someone to have all the relevant information at hand, and make a decision I wouldn't make. I think what's got me more surprised is the blunt and obviously propagandistic way Amazon is messaging on this; I think they risk coming off cartoonishly corporate/self-interested.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Yeah, I made this comment before having seen Amazon's site linked downthread. I'm sympathetic to the position the original commenter described, but I don't know who the target audience is supposed to be for quips like > IF YOU’RE PAYING DUES… it will be RESTRICTIVE meaning it won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other. So be a DOER, stay friendly and get things done versus paying dues. Who's going to take this messaging seriously?
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      There are already plenty of people (workers included) who think unions allow some workers to freeload while other workers pick up the slack. Like political advertising, the point of most of the messaging on both sides is not aimed at changing minds, it is aimed at getting supporters fired up to turn out.
serial_dev 6y ago
> It felt like they thought their workers were stupid In my opinion, they have spies, moles, agents amongst the workers. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those agents are in important positions, and they could be then now requested to do something stupid. If they don't have these agents, they could also just approach someone now. They could offer them something to do something outrageous or negative for the movement. Then, they also control various media outlets where they talk about it in every news segment. I'm pretty sure there is some serious intelligence operations in the background,why would they leave this to chance?
- ivraatiems 6y ago
  > In my opinion, they have spies, moles, agents amongst the workers. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those agents are in important positions, and they could be then now requested to do something stupid. Oh, I agree. I'm sure you are right. I'm just surprised that with all that intelligence, the path they chose to take was so blunt. Either they're missing something, or I am - only time will tell, I guess.
- pm90 6y ago
  The risk of doing this is that if it gets discovered (a big if) then there can be even more backlash. It may also be fodder for actual lawsuits. They may still decide to do it. But there are potential costs.
  - serial_dev 6y ago
    I think they were already discovered https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-pinkerton-agency-spies-union-strike-spain-ccoo-legal-action-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-pinkerton-agency-spie...
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  How common is this really? Does it happen to political parties, for example? I feel like there might be some law being broken when it comes to this sort of espionage but I am not sure.
- 6y ago
efficax 6y ago
It's the standard anti union playbook: you're giving up your power to negotiate as an individual! we're a family! you'll have to pay dues now! The fact is that there is no solid argument against unionization in an industry like warehouse work. Anything the union might do wrong the bosses might do as well, except in the union the worker can vote and influence those decisions. The reason the arguments are so dumb is that there aren't any downsides to the union vs not having a union. Unions aren't perfect but they're almost always better than not having one
- eplanit 6y ago
  It's a great time to be a roboticist.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    Hypothetically the union could negotiate for $0.01/hour less than what a robot would cost., which would be an improvement over $0.01/hour more than the bare minimum an individual worker of a certain skillset would accept.
    - ed312 6y ago
      This is already happening - there is an absolute glut of warehouse robotics companies at this point. Mostly in adding robotics to legacy warehouses. New warehouses will almost exclusively be built with automation in mind.
      - whatshisface 6y ago
        Then it sounds like the workers are on the way out even if they don't unionize, so there's not much to lose.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Very easy position to take if you’re not a warehouse work worker that thinks a union is a difference between you losing your job
MattGaiser 6y ago
Eh, the top complaint I have heard from people who are union members is that they take money for very little.
- ivraatiems 6y ago
  What do you think they are basing that on? Maybe they should talk to their union. There are bad unions out there, but I don't think they're a majority.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    These people are government workers who are angry if the union doesn't win them a raise every year (and they won't as I live in a province which is very suspicious of government and nobody cares if they get a raise). So they instead just want their dues back.
    - asdff 6y ago
      Regular raises are not guaranteed for nonunion workers.
      - MattGaiser 6y ago
        Yes, but their thinking is that if they don’t get a raise, they should pay what non-union workers pay.
    - bumby 6y ago
      I think there’s an argument that public unions are a very different animal for a variety of reasons that may not make for an appropriate comparison. For example, it may be illegal for public servants to strike. The government may not go out of “business”. Civil servants tend to skew towards white collar professions. Point being, there are a different set of incentives and tactics in pubic vs private unions
  - lambda_obrien 6y ago
    I always remembered how I hated unions for taking all those dues, but then I actually joined one and it was like 30 bucks a paycheck on a 3k paycheck, so like 1 percent. In exchange, my boss never asked me to stay late, work on weekends, or do several other categories of things that I routinely get asked now when I have no union. Additionally, I never had any issues with my job or boss doing anything illegal, but if I had, there were lawyers and reps waiting around to help me get my problems solved. I wish I was in a union now.
canadianfella 6y ago
What does hope against hope mean?
fossuser 6y ago
The documentary that won the Oscar last year, "American Factory", is worth watching. The company in the movie brings in some consulting firm and requires employees to go to classes about why unions are bad during work hours. There are legitimate reasons to dislike unions, but the reason companies rely on these "ham-fisted" tactics is because the employees are generally less sophisticated than people on HN and the tactics work.
- bumby 6y ago
  >the employees are generally less sophisticated than people on HN Can you define what you mean by “less sophisticated” and what you think drives this discrepancy? The irony to me is that I see a lot of comments on HN that would indicate many don’t have much knowledge of how unions work, so I don’t know that the claim of sophistication holds true in every domain
  - fossuser 6y ago
    Yeah, I’m not pretending HN is some super knowledgeable group that knows everything about everything. It’s more base level of education. I think it’s worth watching to see what I mean.
    - bumby 6y ago
      I’ve seen it but didn’t have that same takeaway
renewiltord 6y ago
I sometimes wonder about statements like this. Like when Uber and Lyft were hamfisted about their messaging around Prop 22. It's like the online world (universally against Prop 22) is inhabited by a significantly distinct group from the real world (mildly for Prop 22). I think the truth is that absolute karma counting (i.e. 5000 up, 4900 down is a -100 comment) makes things appear more significantly skewed than they are.
ignoramous 6y ago
> It felt like they thought their workers were stupid... They sure want to make them look like stupid: VICE News reveal company executives discussed a plan to smear fired warehouse employee Christian Smalls. "He’s not smart, or articulate, and to the extent the press wants to focus on us versus him, we will be in a much stronger PR position than simply explaining for the umpteenth time how we’re trying to protect workers," wrote Amazon General Counsel David Zapolsky in notes from the meeting forwarded widely in the company. https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-details-plan-to-smear-fired-warehouse-organizer-hes-not-smart-or-articulate https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-de...
cbozeman 6y ago
> I was a little astonished at how ham-fisted their messaging was I'm just waiting for Amazon's last-ditch appeal to actual consumers... "Don't let these dirty poors around rural shittown America result in Amazon Prime yearly subscriptions going up $10 and products costing an additional $0.17!"

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

Well, the reason their messaging can be so direct is that there's a legitimate difference of opinion here. I'd kinda argue that your description of Amazon can be better applied to union organizers, who seem to have a pervasive attitude that any worker who opposes a union must have been tricked or bullied into their position. Some people legitimately believe that a union might be bad for their interests, and they're the ones Amazon is trying to reach - the confidently pro-union employees will probably vote for one regardless of how Amazon presents their case.

ivraatiems 6y ago
> I'd kinda argue that your description of Amazon can be better applied to union organizers, who seem to have a pervasive attitude that any worker who opposes a union must have been tricked or bullied into their position I can't speak for union organizers, as I'm not one, but I don't think this is exactly how one sees people who're acting against their own interests. It's more of a frustration/confusion/concern they don't have all the facts. It's absolutely possible for someone to have all the relevant information at hand, and make a decision I wouldn't make. I think what's got me more surprised is the blunt and obviously propagandistic way Amazon is messaging on this; I think they risk coming off cartoonishly corporate/self-interested.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Yeah, I made this comment before having seen Amazon's site linked downthread. I'm sympathetic to the position the original commenter described, but I don't know who the target audience is supposed to be for quips like > IF YOU’RE PAYING DUES… it will be RESTRICTIVE meaning it won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other. So be a DOER, stay friendly and get things done versus paying dues. Who's going to take this messaging seriously?
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    There are already plenty of people (workers included) who think unions allow some workers to freeload while other workers pick up the slack. Like political advertising, the point of most of the messaging on both sides is not aimed at changing minds, it is aimed at getting supporters fired up to turn out.

serial_dev 6y ago

> It felt like they thought their workers were stupid In my opinion, they have spies, moles, agents amongst the workers. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those agents are in important positions, and they could be then now requested to do something stupid. If they don't have these agents, they could also just approach someone now. They could offer them something to do something outrageous or negative for the movement. Then, they also control various media outlets where they talk about it in every news segment. I'm pretty sure there is some serious intelligence operations in the background,why would they leave this to chance?

ivraatiems 6y ago
> In my opinion, they have spies, moles, agents amongst the workers. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those agents are in important positions, and they could be then now requested to do something stupid. Oh, I agree. I'm sure you are right. I'm just surprised that with all that intelligence, the path they chose to take was so blunt. Either they're missing something, or I am - only time will tell, I guess.
pm90 6y ago
The risk of doing this is that if it gets discovered (a big if) then there can be even more backlash. It may also be fodder for actual lawsuits. They may still decide to do it. But there are potential costs.
- serial_dev 6y ago
  I think they were already discovered https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-pinkerton-agency-spies-union-strike-spain-ccoo-legal-action-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-pinkerton-agency-spie...
throwawaysea 6y ago
How common is this really? Does it happen to political parties, for example? I feel like there might be some law being broken when it comes to this sort of espionage but I am not sure.
6y ago

efficax 6y ago

It's the standard anti union playbook: you're giving up your power to negotiate as an individual! we're a family! you'll have to pay dues now! The fact is that there is no solid argument against unionization in an industry like warehouse work. Anything the union might do wrong the bosses might do as well, except in the union the worker can vote and influence those decisions. The reason the arguments are so dumb is that there aren't any downsides to the union vs not having a union. Unions aren't perfect but they're almost always better than not having one

eplanit 6y ago
It's a great time to be a roboticist.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  Hypothetically the union could negotiate for $0.01/hour less than what a robot would cost., which would be an improvement over $0.01/hour more than the bare minimum an individual worker of a certain skillset would accept.
  - ed312 6y ago
    This is already happening - there is an absolute glut of warehouse robotics companies at this point. Mostly in adding robotics to legacy warehouses. New warehouses will almost exclusively be built with automation in mind.
    - whatshisface 6y ago
      Then it sounds like the workers are on the way out even if they don't unionize, so there's not much to lose.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Very easy position to take if you’re not a warehouse work worker that thinks a union is a difference between you losing your job

MattGaiser 6y ago

Eh, the top complaint I have heard from people who are union members is that they take money for very little.

ivraatiems 6y ago
What do you think they are basing that on? Maybe they should talk to their union. There are bad unions out there, but I don't think they're a majority.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  These people are government workers who are angry if the union doesn't win them a raise every year (and they won't as I live in a province which is very suspicious of government and nobody cares if they get a raise). So they instead just want their dues back.
  - asdff 6y ago
    Regular raises are not guaranteed for nonunion workers.
    - MattGaiser 6y ago
      Yes, but their thinking is that if they don’t get a raise, they should pay what non-union workers pay.
  - bumby 6y ago
    I think there’s an argument that public unions are a very different animal for a variety of reasons that may not make for an appropriate comparison. For example, it may be illegal for public servants to strike. The government may not go out of “business”. Civil servants tend to skew towards white collar professions. Point being, there are a different set of incentives and tactics in pubic vs private unions
- lambda_obrien 6y ago
  I always remembered how I hated unions for taking all those dues, but then I actually joined one and it was like 30 bucks a paycheck on a 3k paycheck, so like 1 percent. In exchange, my boss never asked me to stay late, work on weekends, or do several other categories of things that I routinely get asked now when I have no union. Additionally, I never had any issues with my job or boss doing anything illegal, but if I had, there were lawyers and reps waiting around to help me get my problems solved. I wish I was in a union now.

canadianfella 6y ago

What does hope against hope mean?

fossuser 6y ago

The documentary that won the Oscar last year, "American Factory", is worth watching. The company in the movie brings in some consulting firm and requires employees to go to classes about why unions are bad during work hours. There are legitimate reasons to dislike unions, but the reason companies rely on these "ham-fisted" tactics is because the employees are generally less sophisticated than people on HN and the tactics work.

bumby 6y ago
>the employees are generally less sophisticated than people on HN Can you define what you mean by “less sophisticated” and what you think drives this discrepancy? The irony to me is that I see a lot of comments on HN that would indicate many don’t have much knowledge of how unions work, so I don’t know that the claim of sophistication holds true in every domain
- fossuser 6y ago
  Yeah, I’m not pretending HN is some super knowledgeable group that knows everything about everything. It’s more base level of education. I think it’s worth watching to see what I mean.
  - bumby 6y ago
    I’ve seen it but didn’t have that same takeaway

renewiltord 6y ago

I sometimes wonder about statements like this. Like when Uber and Lyft were hamfisted about their messaging around Prop 22. It's like the online world (universally against Prop 22) is inhabited by a significantly distinct group from the real world (mildly for Prop 22). I think the truth is that absolute karma counting (i.e. 5000 up, 4900 down is a -100 comment) makes things appear more significantly skewed than they are.

ignoramous 6y ago

> It felt like they thought their workers were stupid... They sure want to make them look like stupid: VICE News reveal company executives discussed a plan to smear fired warehouse employee Christian Smalls. "He’s not smart, or articulate, and to the extent the press wants to focus on us versus him, we will be in a much stronger PR position than simply explaining for the umpteenth time how we’re trying to protect workers," wrote Amazon General Counsel David Zapolsky in notes from the meeting forwarded widely in the company. https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-details-plan-to-smear-fired-warehouse-organizer-hes-not-smart-or-articulate https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-de...

cbozeman 6y ago

> I was a little astonished at how ham-fisted their messaging was I'm just waiting for Amazon's last-ditch appeal to actual consumers... "Don't let these dirty poors around rural shittown America result in Amazon Prime yearly subscriptions going up $10 and products costing an additional $0.17!"