5 ms·

Does democracy = freedom? I don't really feel free in the US because the laws don't represent me and the police have too much power

yostrovs 6y ago
Have you ever lived in a country regarded as unfree?
- mrweasel 6y ago
  I think if you live in a free country, then the amount of freedom that can be taken away without criticism is extremely low. The US is a great example, there has been, and still is, a high level of freedom, trying to tamper with that, just a little, will be meet with massive criticism. On the other hand, in a non-free country, you can give just the tiniest amount of freedom back to the people and it will be seen as a huge positive move. Of cause anyone in the US or the EU is objectively much more free than someone in almost any random African country, but any attempt at tampering with those freedoms will be seen as a massive move in the wrong direction by the population.
gremlinsinc 6y ago
I think freedom as in free to run any business without regulations, bribe politicians, and starve if you lack the wherewithal to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps". -- tongue-in-cheek -- In all seriousness though, honestly the entire world is ran by oligarchs like Papa John Schnatter who took 20 months to purge the "N" word from his vocabulary...what exactly "counts" as a free country? My "view" of a free country must include the following: A country with guaranteed healthcare, education (k-college), safety nets, and a decent plan for global warming induced famines and water shortages, parental leave, and maybe a UBI if we continue hemorrhaging jobs due to globalization, climate change, machines replacing workers,and of course a country that has fought (and won) against systemic racism (esp. in policing and workforce-equality). By my count there's ...0 countries that fit my criteria for a "free" country. I mean maybe Finland comes close, not sure on the racism. I'm white so, I don't always "notice" myself, I'm only more aware because of the past year all the atrocities that occured by white supremacists in blue uniforms.
- shaftoe 6y ago
  In your free country, am I free to not pay for all your good ideas? What happens to me if I refuse to contribute to your ideas?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >am I free to not pay for all your good ideas Depends where you live. In most European countries, as long as you are a resident with a legal address, past a certain amount of time lived here, you're expected to contribute a certain proportion of your earnings as taxes to fund all public and social services.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    You can try to push your own idea through a political party, or create a new one. Or you protest in the street to express your position and try to attract others. By definition a democratic system isn’t stable, rules you don’t like can be changed and can evolve, but given the number of “stakeholders” (citizens) that takes a while to reach decisions.
  - boomlinde 6y ago
    If you want to maximize autonomy in the sense you're hinting at, I suggest looking into Liberland, a currently undeveloped piece of swampland that will no doubt be a prospering night-watchman city-state one day. It's a project that's already completely unencumbered by good ideas. It could perhaps be offered as an emigration option to people who are opposed to paying into a system that everyone will benefit from.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  That's just an affluent and advanced economy. None of what you says classifies as free. GNU even says it's stuff is "free as in freedom, not free as in beer." All of what you said is free as in beer.
  - gremlinsinc 6y ago
    Free education and healthcare isn't "free as in beer" in that you could have a "tax" on education when/if the education pays dividends (i.e. the person becomes a doctor) then they can pay it off, if their income never exceeds say 100k then they never have to pay it off. If we can value one career over another then surely we can pay for those who choose to go into less pay-worthy but still necessary jobs like teachers. As for healthcare single-payer would save lives and money and cut costs across the board, pretty sure that's a win-win for everybody without anything being "free" because you know we all pay for it out of taxes. Free as in Beer would be my tax money going to pay for fancy toys for military and police that I'll never use, or the money that politicians get for siding against the people and for big business.
AndrewDucker 6y ago
Democracy in the USA is...not great. The election system basically hands power to the two big parties, and distorts the political process.
- okprod 6y ago
  Political parties, unending terms, and lack of accountability on electeds' wages/benefits/post-office work have all hurt the US in my opinion.
dgellow 6y ago
A democratic system is a way to reach a freer world, yes. It doesn’t imply freedom. Instead of a central authority that imposes decisions people gather in parties and negotiate to reach some level of consensus. That doesn’t say anything about the level of corruption and still gives lot of powers to elected people, but in a way more distributed way than the alternatives. Now, regarding the US, the political system seems to be completely broken. Just the fact that only two parties exist for such a large country is a clear sign there is a huge problem. And the president has a ridiculous amount of power compared to other democratic countries.
throwaway210222 6y ago
"I don't really feel free in the US because the laws don't represent me" What laws (and it has to way more than one or two) would you like to change to feel represented? (whatever that means)

yostrovs 6y ago

Have you ever lived in a country regarded as unfree?

mrweasel 6y ago
I think if you live in a free country, then the amount of freedom that can be taken away without criticism is extremely low. The US is a great example, there has been, and still is, a high level of freedom, trying to tamper with that, just a little, will be meet with massive criticism. On the other hand, in a non-free country, you can give just the tiniest amount of freedom back to the people and it will be seen as a huge positive move. Of cause anyone in the US or the EU is objectively much more free than someone in almost any random African country, but any attempt at tampering with those freedoms will be seen as a massive move in the wrong direction by the population.

gremlinsinc 6y ago

I think freedom as in free to run any business without regulations, bribe politicians, and starve if you lack the wherewithal to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps". -- tongue-in-cheek -- In all seriousness though, honestly the entire world is ran by oligarchs like Papa John Schnatter who took 20 months to purge the "N" word from his vocabulary...what exactly "counts" as a free country? My "view" of a free country must include the following: A country with guaranteed healthcare, education (k-college), safety nets, and a decent plan for global warming induced famines and water shortages, parental leave, and maybe a UBI if we continue hemorrhaging jobs due to globalization, climate change, machines replacing workers,and of course a country that has fought (and won) against systemic racism (esp. in policing and workforce-equality). By my count there's ...0 countries that fit my criteria for a "free" country. I mean maybe Finland comes close, not sure on the racism. I'm white so, I don't always "notice" myself, I'm only more aware because of the past year all the atrocities that occured by white supremacists in blue uniforms.

shaftoe 6y ago
In your free country, am I free to not pay for all your good ideas? What happens to me if I refuse to contribute to your ideas?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >am I free to not pay for all your good ideas Depends where you live. In most European countries, as long as you are a resident with a legal address, past a certain amount of time lived here, you're expected to contribute a certain proportion of your earnings as taxes to fund all public and social services.
- dgellow 6y ago
  You can try to push your own idea through a political party, or create a new one. Or you protest in the street to express your position and try to attract others. By definition a democratic system isn’t stable, rules you don’t like can be changed and can evolve, but given the number of “stakeholders” (citizens) that takes a while to reach decisions.
- boomlinde 6y ago
  If you want to maximize autonomy in the sense you're hinting at, I suggest looking into Liberland, a currently undeveloped piece of swampland that will no doubt be a prospering night-watchman city-state one day. It's a project that's already completely unencumbered by good ideas. It could perhaps be offered as an emigration option to people who are opposed to paying into a system that everyone will benefit from.
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
That's just an affluent and advanced economy. None of what you says classifies as free. GNU even says it's stuff is "free as in freedom, not free as in beer." All of what you said is free as in beer.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Free education and healthcare isn't "free as in beer" in that you could have a "tax" on education when/if the education pays dividends (i.e. the person becomes a doctor) then they can pay it off, if their income never exceeds say 100k then they never have to pay it off. If we can value one career over another then surely we can pay for those who choose to go into less pay-worthy but still necessary jobs like teachers. As for healthcare single-payer would save lives and money and cut costs across the board, pretty sure that's a win-win for everybody without anything being "free" because you know we all pay for it out of taxes. Free as in Beer would be my tax money going to pay for fancy toys for military and police that I'll never use, or the money that politicians get for siding against the people and for big business.

AndrewDucker 6y ago

Democracy in the USA is...not great. The election system basically hands power to the two big parties, and distorts the political process.

okprod 6y ago
Political parties, unending terms, and lack of accountability on electeds' wages/benefits/post-office work have all hurt the US in my opinion.

dgellow 6y ago

A democratic system is a way to reach a freer world, yes. It doesn’t imply freedom. Instead of a central authority that imposes decisions people gather in parties and negotiate to reach some level of consensus. That doesn’t say anything about the level of corruption and still gives lot of powers to elected people, but in a way more distributed way than the alternatives. Now, regarding the US, the political system seems to be completely broken. Just the fact that only two parties exist for such a large country is a clear sign there is a huge problem. And the president has a ridiculous amount of power compared to other democratic countries.

throwaway210222 6y ago

"I don't really feel free in the US because the laws don't represent me" What laws (and it has to way more than one or two) would you like to change to feel represented? (whatever that means)