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Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “free” country

60 points by revolucien 6y ago

YaSamPoSebe 6y ago
US is free only in your holywood-conditioned imagination. Take a look at your prisons and the plea bargain practice. There is no real freedom of expression: no one speaks of your war criminale on "mainstream media", no one discusses the tyranny which your country practice outside of your borders, no one condemns the nazi style hate campaigns against Russia and China. So I think that the 20% should be actually a smaller number..
- eggsmediumrare 6y ago
  It's really easy to rag on America and it's really easy to forget that basically every other superpower has been way, way worse.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    But it's also really silly to rag on empires that have been dead for hundreds of years when there's one right here.
    - deburo 6y ago
      It's not an empire, it's a superpower, and least you forget, it's not the only superpower in town: China and Russia are still present, with China being quite scary too be honest.
      - FpUser 6y ago
        I thought the US does not consider Russia superpower anymore. They call it regional power.
        rchaud 6y ago
        Just semantics ultimately. Both have enough warheads to turn the planet into dust, and a large enough intelligence apparatus to conduct espionage and cyber warfare.
        giobox 6y ago
        Calling it semantics glosses over some realities. Russia’s GDP is roughly 1/10th that of the United States - the size of the US economy and the dominance of the US dollar as a reserve currency have arguably been stronger levers of power. Russia, for all its nuclear and military ability, does not exert anything like the economic power the US does. There’s more to “power” than just guns, rockets and espionage.
        rchaud 6y ago
        Yes, Russia is far less rich. But the superior might and reach of the US (or EU or NATO) tends to be to leveraged to overthrow countries that are much weaker, such as Libya. Meanwhile Russia's expansion into Crimea has only been met with sanctions, and they have carved out a growing sphere of influence in Syria by helping Assad turn the tide in the civil war. That's why I called it semantics. With nuclear weapons and the logistical capability to deploy them, asymmetric economic power doesn't matter as much.
      - parsimo2010 6y ago
        It's been a while since I took my geopolitics class, but I think most people that study geopolitics would claim that the USA is in fact an empire, and that China and Russia are considered "great powers" and not superpowers. While China is still on the rise, it exerts dominating influence over a very large region and not quite globally.
      - YaSamPoSebe 6y ago
        US is FAR scarier than China. Just try to ask in Europe who the (educated) people there consider to be the primary threat to the world. I am not talking about european "mainstream media", these are eventually on the US food chain.
      - vagrantJin 6y ago
        I would wager it is an empire judging on how many military bases it has all pver the world, global cultural influence, global trade and monetary influence. If it looks like a duck. If it quacks like a duck.
      - freed5666 6y ago
        It is indeed an empire. Two good books: [1] How to Hide an Empire: A History of the Greater United States by Daniel Immerwahr https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater/dp/0374172145 https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater/dp/03... [2] Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Power-Indispensible-Chomsky-Noam/dp/1565847032 https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Power-Indispensible-Cho...
    - ameister14 6y ago
      If by hundreds of years you mean since the 1960's, sure.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    Nice way to avoid responsibility for the things being done. Look ma Genghis Khan was worse. I guess China can do the same. You can always find somebody more bad than you are.
    - eggsmediumrare 6y ago
      Or maybe acknowledging incremental improvement instead of pointing out imperfections will encourage more improvement.
      - FpUser 6y ago
        It takes two to tango.
  - okprod 6y ago
    I can't see the comment you replied to but I assume it was about the US. If so, I'd recommend the South Park episode about the US's genius innovation of having its cake and eating it, too :)
  - b0tzzzzzzman 6y ago
    Show me an American who really believes our political and government structure is a total value summed to define Freedom. The complicated nature of laws, social issues, selfishness, arrogance, and ignorance, have given way to a different form of slavery. Self censorship was an issue when I was in school. Now it must be at an ATH. If everything can be summarized into the merits of global freedom, we are in trouble.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >nazi style hate campaigns against Russia and China If you think this basically normal propaganda and politics versus Russia and China is akin to the Nazis then I don't think you're worth talking further with.
aetherane 6y ago
Does democracy = freedom? I don't really feel free in the US because the laws don't represent me and the police have too much power
- yostrovs 6y ago
  Have you ever lived in a country regarded as unfree?
  - mrweasel 6y ago
    I think if you live in a free country, then the amount of freedom that can be taken away without criticism is extremely low. The US is a great example, there has been, and still is, a high level of freedom, trying to tamper with that, just a little, will be meet with massive criticism. On the other hand, in a non-free country, you can give just the tiniest amount of freedom back to the people and it will be seen as a huge positive move. Of cause anyone in the US or the EU is objectively much more free than someone in almost any random African country, but any attempt at tampering with those freedoms will be seen as a massive move in the wrong direction by the population.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  I think freedom as in free to run any business without regulations, bribe politicians, and starve if you lack the wherewithal to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps". -- tongue-in-cheek -- In all seriousness though, honestly the entire world is ran by oligarchs like Papa John Schnatter who took 20 months to purge the "N" word from his vocabulary...what exactly "counts" as a free country? My "view" of a free country must include the following: A country with guaranteed healthcare, education (k-college), safety nets, and a decent plan for global warming induced famines and water shortages, parental leave, and maybe a UBI if we continue hemorrhaging jobs due to globalization, climate change, machines replacing workers,and of course a country that has fought (and won) against systemic racism (esp. in policing and workforce-equality). By my count there's ...0 countries that fit my criteria for a "free" country. I mean maybe Finland comes close, not sure on the racism. I'm white so, I don't always "notice" myself, I'm only more aware because of the past year all the atrocities that occured by white supremacists in blue uniforms.
Hani1337 6y ago
Every country should create its own region where people who don't want to be under government's rule can leave to. It's too easy to say 'leave your country if you don't like it'. It's the same or worse everywhere else. There's no free land anymore. Almost everything livable space on Earth is claimed by governments.
- dgellow 6y ago
  Ironically a strong government is what allows to enforce and defend individual freedoms. The same way the GPL only works because the intellectual property laws are strong.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - miguelrochefort 6y ago
    GPL is the antithesis of freedom.
    - dgellow 6y ago
      The GPL guarantees very specific freedoms for users by limiting and regulating what developers can and have to do.
- everdrive 6y ago
  These regions would bleed extremism into the government controlled areas. This isn't a theoretical, we have live examples. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_...
  - dennis_jeeves 6y ago
    So that's a large article, mind putting a summary?
Threeve303 6y ago
Free ain't what it used to be.
yawaworht1978 6y ago
Which are those "free countries"? What makes them more free than others? I see oligarchies backed by overwhelming fire power everywhere, just with a different label. Sure you can open your mouth a bit wider in the usa when talking crap against senators or potus compared to the north Korean leader figure.
- kasperni 6y ago
  > Which are those "free countries"? What makes them more free than others? Did you bother clicking on the actual link?
- dgellow 6y ago
  I cannot imagine the level of cynisme required to arrive to this conclusion. A free country isn’t a place where everything works great and everything is fine. It’s a place where you’re quasi-free to live as you would like, with limited government control. You’re free to have and express your religious views, free to do business, free to criticize your government, etc. Lot of places in the world do not have this. You have corrupt oligarchs everywhere, even in free countries. That’s a problem of course but that’s not a reason to ignore that some countries guarantee way more individual freedoms than others.
parsimo2010 6y ago
This type of analysis is subject to a lot of argument. You could argue that qualitative looks like this are prone to error, because if a country's change (in either direction) is slow and doesn't make the news then a third party is unlikely to notice and incorporate the change into their analysis. Okay, then the answer must be a strict quantitative analysis of a country's laws and scoring based on whether freedom of speech, ownership of property, certain protections, and whatever else is codified by law. However, looking at written laws often misses the reality of life- sometimes a country is a democracy on paper but one party runs everything and corruption is rampant. So keep in mind that it's plausible that multiple teams could do this analysis and come up with different conclusions. Case in point: I claim that the USA's 11 point decline in "freedom" from 2010 to 2020 is more of an indictment on Freedom House's methods than an actual shift in freedom. Of the three cited reasons in their "infographic" only one (immigration) has shown concrete movement in the past decade, and that only occurred in the past four years, which wouldn't explain a continued decline in the "freedom line" over the whole decade (DACA is from 2012, and certainly should be responsible for an uptick if immigration is a main contributor to freedom, and then a corresponding decrease as Trump unwound as much as he could). The corruption in politics and lack of transparency has always been there and has not seen any major movement (IMHO) in decades, certainly not enough to explain a 11 point decline. I cannot think of any continued slide in corruption or transparency that would have persisted for the last six year's of Obama's presidency through the Trump administration to make the freedom line decline monotonically as it does in their infographic. So then I have to think that either: 1) That line is totally bogus and is just meant to convey the concept of a decline, in which case why wasn't it just a straight line connecting the two points? Adding in a bunch of squigglyness if their data isn't that granular would make me suspect that they care more about aesthetics than conveying information in their infographic. I might as well disregard the rest of their report if that is the standard they work to, or... 2) Their assessment of freedom is wholly different from mine in the country that I live in, so if they can't even get that right then how am I supposed to trust their evaluation of all the other countries, so I might as well disregard the rest of their report.
Context_free 6y ago
Freedom House is a pretty nutty web site. They have a map of countries which has some unusual aspects, the most bizarre of which is you can't find China on the map. Apparently they have carved it up to their own western satisfaction, just like in that old 19th century French cartoon ( https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:China_imperialism_... ). https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2021 https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2021
- xbar 6y ago
  "Consider the source" is very good advice. For instance, your ad hominem fallacy along with an unrelated 19th century racist straw man makes your response sound like pro-China propaganda. I found China on that map just fine, but other readers might take you at your word.
- captn3m0 6y ago
  I see it as more representative of the reality. It splits up "Indian Kashmir" v/s "India" as well, due to the disparity in freedom levels, even though its the same country.
- naravara 6y ago
  Tibetans aren't Westerners.
known 6y ago
Elections != Democracy
- xbar 6y ago
  What's the expression that equates to freedom?
NoOneNew 6y ago
Um... a few folks in the comments dont get what "freedom" means. It's not about getting stuff for free, not matter how essential both of us might agree whatever it is. It's more the restrictions the gov and society have in influencing and punishing an individual. A freedom is a legal principle, not a "thing". You are free to practice whatever religion, or no religion, without being burned at the stake, locked up or put through a re-education camp. You are free to express an opinion without being stoned to death, imprisoned or disappear. You're free from entities taking your stuff because they have a lineage name or are part of the correct political party of the time. This is what possession is nine-tenths of the law generally refers to. Protects your ownership of stuff. And yes, this is also very contested. You're free to associate with people without being guilty of something they did. Freedom to gather and/or converse with whom you choose even if the gov or society doesn't like them. You have the freedom of legal recourse against someone of a higher class. We take this for granted. This isnt a thing in quite a few societies, especially in history, and western countries are still plagued with the in reality practice, but it is in the legal letter at least. There's obviously lots more. Obviously a lot of these are infringed often. But that's the thing, they are "infringed" and that's not considered okay, normally. Life is messier than debate and rhetoric circles. The recent freedom of expression issues is a good example of not knowing the slippery slope implications (I'm a Polish-Jew. censoring anyone, including Nazis solves nothing. Only makes it worse. Open debate is the only real cure for stupid. Getting your book or album banned is the fastest way to top the sales charts. History is on my side regarding this one.) While healthcare is important, free healthcare isn't a "freedom" nor should it be considered as one. We are free to discuss the value, want and vote to implement, as we should. But you dont call a vaccine a fruit just because they're both important. Dont confuse legal principles with necessities. Doing so dilutes the meaning and can cause further harm in the protection of freedoms from corrupt forms of gov and social authorities.
- xbar 6y ago
  Well said.
- dennis_jeeves 6y ago
  >Um... a few folks in the comments dont get what "freedom" means. It's not about getting stuff for free, not matter how essential both of us might agree whatever it is. Well said. But what to do you? Cannot convincing those simians either. It's tragedy of the masses ... ( quote out of context but I guess it expresses how I feel) 9 Wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner...
astatine 6y ago
"India, the world’s most populous democracy, dropped from Free to Partly Free status in Freedom in the World 2021. " - that's basically a 14% drop right there. I live in India and while there are definitely questionable things the Government does, I really don't understand these arbitrary labeling of "Free" or removing such labels. Conflating the handling of the lockdown during the pandemic, as one reason for or even contributing to the "free" derating only makes the whole thing less credible.
- naravara 6y ago
  GOI's handling of relocation during the lockdowns was a negative indicator in the same way famines are indicators (https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/01/arts/does-democracy-avert-famine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/01/arts/does-democracy-avert...). It was directed top-down, imposed unreasonable and dangerous burdens on people with no recourse for restitution, and overall just betrayed a total callousness and lack of concern for the difficulties faced by migrant or itinerant laborers. It's not the ONLY cause of down-ranking India, but it is definitely another piece of evidence on the pile in addition to adoption of fairly authoritarian tactics for suppressing dissent. The corruption and patronage, sending out party goons to rough up detractors, and the corrupt and unprofessional standards in policing have always been black marks on Indian democracy. But once it expands to cutting off communication to regions, laws that are clearly intended to target religious minorities, applying those same goon-squad pressure tactics towards journalists and academics, etc. it all indicates a society that is at risk of crossing a threshold that will be difficult to come back from.
- kasperni 6y ago
  Where do you get the 14% from? India went from a 71 score (2019) to a 67 score. You can read more about the methodology here [1]. [1] https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world-research-methodology https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world...
  - Lunrtick 6y ago
    I think that was a ±14% drop in the number of people living in a free country now that India is relabeled
EdwinLarkin 6y ago
Most countries reversed the decade of progress in favor of CCP dystopian bullshit. I could not visit my friends and extended family abroad because "IT IS NOT ESSENTIAL TRAVEL".
- dgellow 6y ago
  Sure but… we are in a global pandemics. My place is locked down since October now, my family in a different country I cannot visit and that has a massive impact on my mental abilities. But, like, … there is a GLOBAL pandemics that we do not have under control! It’s not about government controlling the people, it’s about avoiding even more catastrophic situations.
  - EdwinLarkin 6y ago
    That's not an excuse for implementing draconian CCP measures in democratic societies. Freedom of movement is a human right.I repeat.Freedom of movement is a human right. Free countries should take every possible ways first before they stomp our human rights.The law of proportionality should apply here. This is basically an implementation of the CCP's social score system.I absolutely assure you that privileged people fly these days.Regularly. And I am not taking about billionaires or millionaires here but about people that are able to convince the government that they are important businessmen. And this is not talking about politicians that can fly whenever they want avoiding quarantines and what not. Rules for thee but not for me.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  I think the irony might be lost here that life in China had returned largely to normal since summer 2020 because of 'CCP dystopian bullshit' which managed to effectively curtail the spread of the virus, in contrast to the paragons of freedom in the West, where everyone has been in periodic lockdowns for over a year. Almost ever major crisis that has plagued Western democracies over the last two decades can largely be traced back to weakness, not strength of states, yet people seem to be constantly afraid of 'totalitarianism' rather than dysfunction.
  - 6y ago

60 points by revolucien 6y ago

US is free only in your holywood-conditioned imagination. Take a look at your prisons and the plea bargain practice. There is no real freedom of expression: no one speaks of your war criminale on "mainstream media", no one discusses the tyranny which your country practice outside of your borders, no one condemns the nazi style hate campaigns against Russia and China. So I think that the 20% should be actually a smaller number..

eggsmediumrare 6y ago
It's really easy to rag on America and it's really easy to forget that basically every other superpower has been way, way worse.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  But it's also really silly to rag on empires that have been dead for hundreds of years when there's one right here.
  - deburo 6y ago
    It's not an empire, it's a superpower, and least you forget, it's not the only superpower in town: China and Russia are still present, with China being quite scary too be honest.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      I thought the US does not consider Russia superpower anymore. They call it regional power.
      - rchaud 6y ago
        Just semantics ultimately. Both have enough warheads to turn the planet into dust, and a large enough intelligence apparatus to conduct espionage and cyber warfare.
        giobox 6y ago
        Calling it semantics glosses over some realities. Russia’s GDP is roughly 1/10th that of the United States - the size of the US economy and the dominance of the US dollar as a reserve currency have arguably been stronger levers of power. Russia, for all its nuclear and military ability, does not exert anything like the economic power the US does. There’s more to “power” than just guns, rockets and espionage.
        rchaud 6y ago
        Yes, Russia is far less rich. But the superior might and reach of the US (or EU or NATO) tends to be to leveraged to overthrow countries that are much weaker, such as Libya. Meanwhile Russia's expansion into Crimea has only been met with sanctions, and they have carved out a growing sphere of influence in Syria by helping Assad turn the tide in the civil war. That's why I called it semantics. With nuclear weapons and the logistical capability to deploy them, asymmetric economic power doesn't matter as much.
    - parsimo2010 6y ago
      It's been a while since I took my geopolitics class, but I think most people that study geopolitics would claim that the USA is in fact an empire, and that China and Russia are considered "great powers" and not superpowers. While China is still on the rise, it exerts dominating influence over a very large region and not quite globally.
    - YaSamPoSebe 6y ago
      US is FAR scarier than China. Just try to ask in Europe who the (educated) people there consider to be the primary threat to the world. I am not talking about european "mainstream media", these are eventually on the US food chain.
    - vagrantJin 6y ago
      I would wager it is an empire judging on how many military bases it has all pver the world, global cultural influence, global trade and monetary influence. If it looks like a duck. If it quacks like a duck.
    - freed5666 6y ago
      It is indeed an empire. Two good books: [1] How to Hide an Empire: A History of the Greater United States by Daniel Immerwahr https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater/dp/0374172145 https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater/dp/03... [2] Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Power-Indispensible-Chomsky-Noam/dp/1565847032 https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Power-Indispensible-Cho...
  - ameister14 6y ago
    If by hundreds of years you mean since the 1960's, sure.
- FpUser 6y ago
  Nice way to avoid responsibility for the things being done. Look ma Genghis Khan was worse. I guess China can do the same. You can always find somebody more bad than you are.
  - eggsmediumrare 6y ago
    Or maybe acknowledging incremental improvement instead of pointing out imperfections will encourage more improvement.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      It takes two to tango.
- okprod 6y ago
  I can't see the comment you replied to but I assume it was about the US. If so, I'd recommend the South Park episode about the US's genius innovation of having its cake and eating it, too :)
- b0tzzzzzzman 6y ago
  Show me an American who really believes our political and government structure is a total value summed to define Freedom. The complicated nature of laws, social issues, selfishness, arrogance, and ignorance, have given way to a different form of slavery. Self censorship was an issue when I was in school. Now it must be at an ATH. If everything can be summarized into the merits of global freedom, we are in trouble.
marcinzm 6y ago
>nazi style hate campaigns against Russia and China If you think this basically normal propaganda and politics versus Russia and China is akin to the Nazis then I don't think you're worth talking further with.

aetherane 6y ago

Does democracy = freedom? I don't really feel free in the US because the laws don't represent me and the police have too much power

yostrovs 6y ago
Have you ever lived in a country regarded as unfree?
- mrweasel 6y ago
  I think if you live in a free country, then the amount of freedom that can be taken away without criticism is extremely low. The US is a great example, there has been, and still is, a high level of freedom, trying to tamper with that, just a little, will be meet with massive criticism. On the other hand, in a non-free country, you can give just the tiniest amount of freedom back to the people and it will be seen as a huge positive move. Of cause anyone in the US or the EU is objectively much more free than someone in almost any random African country, but any attempt at tampering with those freedoms will be seen as a massive move in the wrong direction by the population.
gremlinsinc 6y ago
I think freedom as in free to run any business without regulations, bribe politicians, and starve if you lack the wherewithal to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps". -- tongue-in-cheek -- In all seriousness though, honestly the entire world is ran by oligarchs like Papa John Schnatter who took 20 months to purge the "N" word from his vocabulary...what exactly "counts" as a free country? My "view" of a free country must include the following: A country with guaranteed healthcare, education (k-college), safety nets, and a decent plan for global warming induced famines and water shortages, parental leave, and maybe a UBI if we continue hemorrhaging jobs due to globalization, climate change, machines replacing workers,and of course a country that has fought (and won) against systemic racism (esp. in policing and workforce-equality). By my count there's ...0 countries that fit my criteria for a "free" country. I mean maybe Finland comes close, not sure on the racism. I'm white so, I don't always "notice" myself, I'm only more aware because of the past year all the atrocities that occured by white supremacists in blue uniforms.

Hani1337 6y ago

Every country should create its own region where people who don't want to be under government's rule can leave to. It's too easy to say 'leave your country if you don't like it'. It's the same or worse everywhere else. There's no free land anymore. Almost everything livable space on Earth is claimed by governments.

dgellow 6y ago
Ironically a strong government is what allows to enforce and defend individual freedoms. The same way the GPL only works because the intellectual property laws are strong.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- miguelrochefort 6y ago
  GPL is the antithesis of freedom.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    The GPL guarantees very specific freedoms for users by limiting and regulating what developers can and have to do.
everdrive 6y ago
These regions would bleed extremism into the government controlled areas. This isn't a theoretical, we have live examples. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_...
- dennis_jeeves 6y ago
  So that's a large article, mind putting a summary?

Threeve303 6y ago

Free ain't what it used to be.

yawaworht1978 6y ago

Which are those "free countries"? What makes them more free than others? I see oligarchies backed by overwhelming fire power everywhere, just with a different label. Sure you can open your mouth a bit wider in the usa when talking crap against senators or potus compared to the north Korean leader figure.

kasperni 6y ago
> Which are those "free countries"? What makes them more free than others? Did you bother clicking on the actual link?
dgellow 6y ago
I cannot imagine the level of cynisme required to arrive to this conclusion. A free country isn’t a place where everything works great and everything is fine. It’s a place where you’re quasi-free to live as you would like, with limited government control. You’re free to have and express your religious views, free to do business, free to criticize your government, etc. Lot of places in the world do not have this. You have corrupt oligarchs everywhere, even in free countries. That’s a problem of course but that’s not a reason to ignore that some countries guarantee way more individual freedoms than others.

parsimo2010 6y ago

This type of analysis is subject to a lot of argument. You could argue that qualitative looks like this are prone to error, because if a country's change (in either direction) is slow and doesn't make the news then a third party is unlikely to notice and incorporate the change into their analysis. Okay, then the answer must be a strict quantitative analysis of a country's laws and scoring based on whether freedom of speech, ownership of property, certain protections, and whatever else is codified by law. However, looking at written laws often misses the reality of life- sometimes a country is a democracy on paper but one party runs everything and corruption is rampant. So keep in mind that it's plausible that multiple teams could do this analysis and come up with different conclusions. Case in point: I claim that the USA's 11 point decline in "freedom" from 2010 to 2020 is more of an indictment on Freedom House's methods than an actual shift in freedom. Of the three cited reasons in their "infographic" only one (immigration) has shown concrete movement in the past decade, and that only occurred in the past four years, which wouldn't explain a continued decline in the "freedom line" over the whole decade (DACA is from 2012, and certainly should be responsible for an uptick if immigration is a main contributor to freedom, and then a corresponding decrease as Trump unwound as much as he could). The corruption in politics and lack of transparency has always been there and has not seen any major movement (IMHO) in decades, certainly not enough to explain a 11 point decline. I cannot think of any continued slide in corruption or transparency that would have persisted for the last six year's of Obama's presidency through the Trump administration to make the freedom line decline monotonically as it does in their infographic. So then I have to think that either: 1) That line is totally bogus and is just meant to convey the concept of a decline, in which case why wasn't it just a straight line connecting the two points? Adding in a bunch of squigglyness if their data isn't that granular would make me suspect that they care more about aesthetics than conveying information in their infographic. I might as well disregard the rest of their report if that is the standard they work to, or... 2) Their assessment of freedom is wholly different from mine in the country that I live in, so if they can't even get that right then how am I supposed to trust their evaluation of all the other countries, so I might as well disregard the rest of their report.

Context_free 6y ago

Freedom House is a pretty nutty web site. They have a map of countries which has some unusual aspects, the most bizarre of which is you can't find China on the map. Apparently they have carved it up to their own western satisfaction, just like in that old 19th century French cartoon ( https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:China_imperialism_... ). https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2021 https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2021

xbar 6y ago
"Consider the source" is very good advice. For instance, your ad hominem fallacy along with an unrelated 19th century racist straw man makes your response sound like pro-China propaganda. I found China on that map just fine, but other readers might take you at your word.
captn3m0 6y ago
I see it as more representative of the reality. It splits up "Indian Kashmir" v/s "India" as well, due to the disparity in freedom levels, even though its the same country.
naravara 6y ago
Tibetans aren't Westerners.

known 6y ago

Elections != Democracy

xbar 6y ago
What's the expression that equates to freedom?

NoOneNew 6y ago

Um... a few folks in the comments dont get what "freedom" means. It's not about getting stuff for free, not matter how essential both of us might agree whatever it is. It's more the restrictions the gov and society have in influencing and punishing an individual. A freedom is a legal principle, not a "thing". You are free to practice whatever religion, or no religion, without being burned at the stake, locked up or put through a re-education camp. You are free to express an opinion without being stoned to death, imprisoned or disappear. You're free from entities taking your stuff because they have a lineage name or are part of the correct political party of the time. This is what possession is nine-tenths of the law generally refers to. Protects your ownership of stuff. And yes, this is also very contested. You're free to associate with people without being guilty of something they did. Freedom to gather and/or converse with whom you choose even if the gov or society doesn't like them. You have the freedom of legal recourse against someone of a higher class. We take this for granted. This isnt a thing in quite a few societies, especially in history, and western countries are still plagued with the in reality practice, but it is in the legal letter at least. There's obviously lots more. Obviously a lot of these are infringed often. But that's the thing, they are "infringed" and that's not considered okay, normally. Life is messier than debate and rhetoric circles. The recent freedom of expression issues is a good example of not knowing the slippery slope implications (I'm a Polish-Jew. censoring anyone, including Nazis solves nothing. Only makes it worse. Open debate is the only real cure for stupid. Getting your book or album banned is the fastest way to top the sales charts. History is on my side regarding this one.) While healthcare is important, free healthcare isn't a "freedom" nor should it be considered as one. We are free to discuss the value, want and vote to implement, as we should. But you dont call a vaccine a fruit just because they're both important. Dont confuse legal principles with necessities. Doing so dilutes the meaning and can cause further harm in the protection of freedoms from corrupt forms of gov and social authorities.

xbar 6y ago
Well said.
dennis_jeeves 6y ago
>Um... a few folks in the comments dont get what "freedom" means. It's not about getting stuff for free, not matter how essential both of us might agree whatever it is. Well said. But what to do you? Cannot convincing those simians either. It's tragedy of the masses ... ( quote out of context but I guess it expresses how I feel) 9 Wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner...

astatine 6y ago

"India, the world’s most populous democracy, dropped from Free to Partly Free status in Freedom in the World 2021. " - that's basically a 14% drop right there. I live in India and while there are definitely questionable things the Government does, I really don't understand these arbitrary labeling of "Free" or removing such labels. Conflating the handling of the lockdown during the pandemic, as one reason for or even contributing to the "free" derating only makes the whole thing less credible.

naravara 6y ago
GOI's handling of relocation during the lockdowns was a negative indicator in the same way famines are indicators (https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/01/arts/does-democracy-avert-famine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/01/arts/does-democracy-avert...). It was directed top-down, imposed unreasonable and dangerous burdens on people with no recourse for restitution, and overall just betrayed a total callousness and lack of concern for the difficulties faced by migrant or itinerant laborers. It's not the ONLY cause of down-ranking India, but it is definitely another piece of evidence on the pile in addition to adoption of fairly authoritarian tactics for suppressing dissent. The corruption and patronage, sending out party goons to rough up detractors, and the corrupt and unprofessional standards in policing have always been black marks on Indian democracy. But once it expands to cutting off communication to regions, laws that are clearly intended to target religious minorities, applying those same goon-squad pressure tactics towards journalists and academics, etc. it all indicates a society that is at risk of crossing a threshold that will be difficult to come back from.
kasperni 6y ago
Where do you get the 14% from? India went from a 71 score (2019) to a 67 score. You can read more about the methodology here [1]. [1] https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world-research-methodology https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world...
- Lunrtick 6y ago
  I think that was a ±14% drop in the number of people living in a free country now that India is relabeled

EdwinLarkin 6y ago

Most countries reversed the decade of progress in favor of CCP dystopian bullshit. I could not visit my friends and extended family abroad because "IT IS NOT ESSENTIAL TRAVEL".

dgellow 6y ago
Sure but… we are in a global pandemics. My place is locked down since October now, my family in a different country I cannot visit and that has a massive impact on my mental abilities. But, like, … there is a GLOBAL pandemics that we do not have under control! It’s not about government controlling the people, it’s about avoiding even more catastrophic situations.
- EdwinLarkin 6y ago
  That's not an excuse for implementing draconian CCP measures in democratic societies. Freedom of movement is a human right.I repeat.Freedom of movement is a human right. Free countries should take every possible ways first before they stomp our human rights.The law of proportionality should apply here. This is basically an implementation of the CCP's social score system.I absolutely assure you that privileged people fly these days.Regularly. And I am not taking about billionaires or millionaires here but about people that are able to convince the government that they are important businessmen. And this is not talking about politicians that can fly whenever they want avoiding quarantines and what not. Rules for thee but not for me.
Barrin92 6y ago
I think the irony might be lost here that life in China had returned largely to normal since summer 2020 because of 'CCP dystopian bullshit' which managed to effectively curtail the spread of the virus, in contrast to the paragons of freedom in the West, where everyone has been in periodic lockdowns for over a year. Almost ever major crisis that has plagued Western democracies over the last two decades can largely be traced back to weakness, not strength of states, yet people seem to be constantly afraid of 'totalitarianism' rather than dysfunction.
- 6y ago