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5k Year Old Bog Oak Table: Digging up 4k-year-old trees for furniture
- agustif 6y agokay, can't delete now, stand corrected lol. Sorry for random rant
- sambroner 6y agoThe article is specifically about digging up old trees that were found in bogs.
- zenbane 6y agoThat table is stunning, fascinating article. I wonder what the supply of these logs is like and whether we will see "Real Fake Bog Log Bedframe" coming out of the black market shops of Asia any time soon.
- bombcar 6y agoIf I remember something similar is done with "logging" the Great Lakes for sunken old-growth wood.
- toomanybeersies 6y agoIn New Zealand, there are old swamplands filled with swamp Kauri. Around a year ago, construction workers found a 16 m (52 ft) long log which had been buried underground for 40,000 years [1] They used to dig up $200 million worth of timber a year, mostly exported to China, until the government cracked down on exports. It's illegal to export unfinished native timber, so exporters exploited a loophole by cutting the trunks into "tabletops", or adding basic carvings and labelling them as "totem poles", and then shipping the logs to China for further processing. [1] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/giant-ngawha-swamp-kauri-log-dated-to-40500-years-old/PM2BHREF4JCBBRN7B6GSJN4CNA/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/giant-ngawha-swamp-kauri-log-d...
- tomrod 6y agoThe limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all loopholes. That said, the added labor ensures a more finished product is exported. Was that the intent, or was the intent to force the wood to stay in NZ?
- minitoar 6y agoCertainly the former, but clearly not in the spirit of it. However as long as the tax man got his share maybe that’s all that matters. Presumably the more finished product is taxed higher.
- TheIronYuppie 6y agoBoth the letter of the law and the spirit seem to point to just using the regulation around finished furniture as a way to limit over harvesting. Why do you see it differently?
- lostlogin 6y agoNot here in NZ. The wetlands were being plundered and trashed with all the raw logs shipped to China. The tax wasn’t the issue, it was getting paid.
- weregiraffe 6y ago>The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all loopholes. Sure there is. Just ban export of wood and wooden items.
- tomrod 6y agoThen you find wood called "cellulose products" and the cycle starts again. It's impossible to limit creativity, and also why would a government want to pursue a ban as it impacts negatively woodworkers?
- weregiraffe 6y ago
- oflannabhra 6y agoLost Art Press is worth a follow in general. If you’re ever near Cincinnati, I highly recommend checking out their store front. They focus on keeping traditional woodworking books in print, but they also do a lot of woodworking (chair making especially) in their shop.
- deberon 6y agoThey produce a series of books about "Anarchist" woodworking which I recommend. In fact, they released the workbench book free of charge as a pdf: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/07/07/updated-anarchists-workbench-pdf/ https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/07/07/updated-anarchists-... They are my go-to for woodworking reading material.
- davidkuhta 6y ago+1 Lost Art Press is an awesome company and publishes some great books, both in terms of content and quality. If anyone is looking to make a workbench, they released their workbench book creative commons: https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB_Consumer_June-2020_v5.pdf https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB...
- simonebrunozzi 6y agoI didn't know what "Bog Oak" was, so I found this [0]: an interesting explanation of how these trunks are preserved over many years. [0]: https://davorinmortapipes.com/what-is-abonos-morta/ https://davorinmortapipes.com/what-is-abonos-morta/
- 52-6F-62 6y agoAnyone with any knowledge know if bog wood like this oak has been used as a tone wood? Really interesting read I didn't expect to see this morning.
- ejs 6y agoI've used bog oak for a bunch of things, it behaves about the same as white oak to me - so I doubt it would be great for tone wood uses.
- 52-6F-62 6y agoThanks for the behaviour note—it sent me on a hunt! Of course, before I'd asked I hadn't searched up whether or not it's been used in instruments. Seems like the consensus is mixed. It might be a sleeper tone wood for a specifically-tuned instrument? Either way, the results can be quite pretty... https://www.brentrup.com/page2/page2.html https://www.brentrup.com/page2/page2.html https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/21176740531/in/album-72157649776959267/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/21176740531/in/album-... https://reverb.com/item/9428705-brand-new-avalon-a1-oak-cara-series-with-cedar-ancient-bog-oak https://reverb.com/item/9428705-brand-new-avalon-a1-oak-cara... One of the criticisms leveed against it was in line with your dismissal of white oak—because of it's structure there's more damping than a rosewood but it's otherwise bright just with a fast decay. So I suppose that lends itself well to specific playing styles. Not a standout (aside from maybe looks and rarity), but not useless either. Found a clip: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/21176740531/in/album-72157649776959267/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/21176740531/in/album-...
- VBprogrammer 6y agoMy friend has a very nice spalted swamp ash custom guitar. I forget the name of the builder but it's pretty rare to go along with it. As for tone wood, its very existence is mired in controversy. This is probably not the time or place to get into it!
- tristor 6y agoI had never heard of bog oak before, but this material is absolutely stunning. I really wish there was more appreciation of proper heirloom-quality furniture and things in general. I think it's part of making living more ecological, and it's a form of generational wealth. Unfortunately we live in an era of cheapest possible items, and disposal of things when they go out of style. Something like this never goes out of style.
- chrisseaton 6y agoIkea has made millennials think furniture is disposable.
- minikites 6y agoWe're not stupid or tasteless, we just don't have enough money to buy furniture that is actually nice. Also, it's not like we can afford to own homes so Ikea futons in a studio apartment it is.
- quesera 6y agoThat's a shallow dismissal. IKEA has been around longer than millennials have. And some IKEA products last forever.
- SavantIdiot 6y agoI think that's a bit misplaced, as millenials are in their 40's now, so they probably don't just throw things away like you assume. But also... I used to live out in the woods and had to haul my garbage to the dump every few months. (I didn't want to burn plastic, like some of my crazy neighbors did.) The city dump changes seasonally. After Christmas, there are piles of old toys that were replaced. After summer, there are hundreds of discarded blue-plastic kid pools. After fall there is a TON of furniture. I have no idea why: do people buy more furniture in the fall in preparation for holidays? Anyway, I see more cheap furniture from Target and department stores than I do IKEA. Ikea is inexpensive furniture, but vastly better than Walmart, Target, Sam's Club, etc. So I didn't see a lot of IKEA at the dump.
- dylan604 6y agoWhen moving day comes around, I'm guessing you have to offer more than just beer & pizza when it comes to moving a 43' table.
- lmilcin 6y agoI would say, in case of this table, "if you have to ask for price you can't afford it". Just the raw wood material probably costs a fortune. Given the fact there aren't many people that can produce anything out of it I assume that the prices are astronomical.
- samdb 6y agoPeople have been volunteering their time and they are still raising £200,000 to get the table completed.
- quesera 6y agoAnd 43' of table with the density of ebony..! From the article: 72 lbs/ft^3. Estimating the table width at 6', and thickness at 2", that would be a total weight of 3096 lbs. Plus a healthy non-zero for the legs and other supports. If you carry the tabletop (legs and trusses removed) with 24 people, 12 on a side, one every 4 feet, that would be 129 lbs each. OSHA would not approve. You could probably find 24 people at a woodworking school who are up for the challenge. It might be harder to find a place to put a 43' table in the first place!
- hu3 6y agoFor metric system folks: 129 lbs is roughly 58.5 kg of mass per person to lift.
- dylan604 6y agoMetric system conversion should not be difficult, however, I recently learned it has been made convoluted. Attempting to find out the per gram price of something bought in a kilogram bundle, I simply divided the kilo price by 1000. This is where it got confusing. I was told there are only 985 grams in a kilo. Me: huh?? It's literally the definition of the word kilogram, 1000 grams. Fucked up maths: 1kilo = 2.2lbs * 16oz * 28g = ~985g Further discussion on 1oz = 28g and least significant digit only made matters worse. Apparently, this is the standard on purchasing of items sold in kilograms.
- danans 6y agoOld growth woods like these are obviously unbelievably unique (and expensive). But even if you can't find or afford anything like that, if you are ever remodeling, it's worth reusing weathered but intact lumber from your house when possible. I pulled and reused about 50 ft of existing redwood 2x6 off my house recently as part of a remodel, refinished it with shou sugi ban (Japanese wood burning technique) and built a new gate structure with it, and it turned out beautiful.
- evanlivingston 6y agoThis advice should have a very large disclaimer. A majority of old finish lumber in the U.S. has been painted with lead based paint. Unfortunately the safest thing to do with this lumber is throw it away. Also in many homes floorboards have been covered with asbestos containing adhesives when newer floors were laid on top.
- cosmodisk 6y agoWhile we on this: I noticed lots of interior design projects, where old pallets are used( Euro Pallet being the most popular). They are all treated with chemicals to withstand harsh environments and definetly shouldn't be used indoors.
- driverdan 6y agoThis isn't true. Most pallets are heat treated now and can be distinguished by "HT" on the side. You should still be careful about selecting and working with pallet wood. They can be subject to hazardous spills and can have random debris embedded in them that will damage blades.
- tvb12 6y agoI think this site was on HN a few days/weeks ago: https://www.1001pallets.com/pallet-safety/ https://www.1001pallets.com/pallet-safety/ I checked a few of the pallets where I work; they're heat treated, no chemical treatment. But! While I'd feel safe using the pallets used to ship corrugate bundles, the pallets used to ship the sketchy drums of mystery chemicals look identical and end up in the same trailers headed off to some pallet recycler. I keep forgetting to check the CHEP pallets.
- jahlove 6y agoCan someone explain how all the planks of the bog oak fit together so perfectly? The article says go to their instagram for details but I'm not really getting a whole lot when I click on individual photos.
- dahdum 6y agoIt looks like they cut a single 43ft board from the oak, then cut that into 4 planks for the kiln and milling process. After that completed they would join them back together. You lose at least an 1/8" for the blade width plus whatever they had to trim due to cupping, but that could be very difficult to see in the final top.
- johncalvinyoung 6y agoNo. There was only about 2/3 of the round log remaining, and they cut (a mix of quartersawn and riftsawn) ten planks out of it. All were full-length, but some were decidedly narrower or rougher than others. They chose four main planks to build the tabletop around, with a fifth full-length cut from one of the scantiest planks to wed the book-matched left and right center planks together, in the center. https://www.thefenlandblackoakproject.co.uk/blog/quarter-sawing https://www.thefenlandblackoakproject.co.uk/blog/quarter-saw... for diagrams of the plank cuts. https://www.thefenlandblackoakproject.co.uk/blog/2019/11/1/selecting-the-4-main-planks-for-the-table-top https://www.thefenlandblackoakproject.co.uk/blog/2019/11/1/s... for a description of the main plank configuration.
- dahdum 6y agoOh that's cool, thank you for replying. I got confused by the shot of them carrying a plank, thinking it was the rough full top.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- quesera 6y agoThe planks are expertly milled to fit together perfectly. No doubt this required extra handwork due to the density and length of the planks. It's usually done by machine, but the traditional process is manual of course.
- 11thEarlOfMar 6y agoThough not as astonishingly aged, the Brewery Gulch Inn in Mendcino, Ca. is paneled with lumber from 'sinker logs' that were lodged in the silt of the nearby Big River for ~150 years. The mineralization has created color variations otherwise not naturally seen [0][1]. [0] https://www.brewerygulchinn.com/the-history-of-the-inn https://www.brewerygulchinn.com/the-history-of-the-inn [1] https://media.expedia.com/hotels/1000000/900000/894100/894018/a2466670_z.jpg https://media.expedia.com/hotels/1000000/900000/894100/89401...
- yitchelle 6y agoWhile the furniture is beautiful, (that cabinet is out of this world), do you really need bog oak to give it that beauty? Can't it be manufactured to the same beauty using wood from today's trees?
- TylerE 6y agoOne case where old wood is actually useful is musical instruments. Old growth wood is much denser than modern farmed wood, and this does (usually Good) good things to the sound.
- anonAndOn 6y agoWhile artificial petrifaction is possible in a lab, I doubt it's practical at full log scale. You are only going to get this kind of timber from the right anaerobic conditions and (x) thousand years.
- madengr 6y agoNo. I cut down a 5,000 YO tree and the table I made out of it turned out great. Also, the Chinese will buy the sawdust as a libido enhancer.
- bradford 6y ago> Can't it be manufactured to the same beauty using wood from today's trees? I work with wood, and I'd like to think the answer is yes. While bog oak does have a special beauty to it (I can't think of another wood that's similar), most wood species have their own special qualities, and I wouldn't say that bog oak is inherently any more beautiful than walnut/cherry or many other varieties. Bog oak is notable for its rarity and difficulty in handling. This drives up the cost and makes it coveted. But beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
- hdjfkkrrn 6y agoSaw a documentary about ultra rich people houses in London. Another similar thing is water logged trees - they pull trees which sat for centuries in Slovakia's lakes. They fill the cracks with metal (bronze). A bonus point it's that the table becomes a "story". Pretty much everything in the house needs to have a "story", which is more important than the actual thing.
- noir_lord 6y ago> which is more important than the actual thing. When you can already buy the best possible thing then the story is what matters. > “Even the dog wouldn’t—” “But humans will, Mr. Bent,” said Moist. “And therein lies genius. I think he makes most of his money on the mustard, but there’s a man who can sell sizzle, Mr. Bent. And that is a seller’s market.” - Making Money - Sir Terry Pratchett.
- smoe 6y agoI'm far from ultra rich, but I like that many of the items in my apartment have at least little bit of story behind them or their makers and are not just being purely functional or decorative. Not that I feel the need to tell the stories to anyone, but at least to me, this gives the space a lot more soul, than if I just had hired an interior designer filling it with stuff or got complete IKEA sets. I live a fairly "minimalist" lifestyle (I don't subscribe to the ideas of minimalism, the Swedish "Lagom", "just the right amount", is closer), so I can spend more on fewer items, maintain them and have more time selecting, making or commissioning them.
- intrasight 6y agoCool recycling story. Lou Stiver has been making mandolins for decades. Some time ago, a neighbor was renovating their kitchen. Lou knew that the original cabinets were made from maple harvested from the property. He asked the neighbor for the old cabinets, and made what he believes are some of his finest mandolins. https://www.yourheaven.net/2018/3-mandolin-makers/ https://www.yourheaven.net/2018/3-mandolin-makers/
- dzdt 6y agoI am amazed in an article about bog oak no mention of dendrochronology. Scientists have been collecting and matching up tree rings from samples including especially bog oaks. This builds an unbroken chain of ring width measurements back to the last ice age. It lets wood pieces be dated to calendar year resolution, serves as the basis for calibration of radiocarbon dating curves, and enables study of past climate conditions.
- tpmx 6y agoThis is obscene. Don't do this.
- hbarka 6y agoThis is all so fascinating. The idea of using wood thousands of years old. The craft of the people doing it. The realization that there are colonies of trees still standing, yes still standing, that are hundreds of years old.
- mikeyouse 6y agoThere are trees still standing in parts of the world that there are several thousand years old. Some of the oldest trees in California's redwood groves took root before the Roman Empire. E.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagg_(tree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagg_(tree)
- hawkjo 6y agoSo, how do we find out when they put it on display at Ely Cathedral?
- wcarss 6y agoforgive me for pulling such a large quote out, but it just glows: > “Don’t ever underestimate a craftsman,” he emphasizes, “because they’re highly disciplined, highly trained, very determined individuals. I’m a real advocate of traditional apprenticeships. I don’t think you could be good at this job other than by doing it as an apprenticeship. Doing it as an apprenticeship teaches you humility. One of the people I worked with said, ‘Somebody who never made a mistake never made anything.’ Processing bog oak went so wrong, so often; you could take the view that it’s a waste of time. Or you can say, ‘I’ve applied myself to this in the wrong way, so what can I do to do it right?’ A craftsman accepts that they’ve made a mistake. Then, rather than saying, ‘That’s a stupid idea,’ or ‘This is impossible,’ they say ‘What did I do wrong and what have I got to do to make it work?’” chef's kiss this is sage and serious advice, well told