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> You gotta be realistic against who you're competing against, and thanks to how mobile tech professionals are, European companies are competing against not jus

> You gotta be realistic against who you're competing against, and thanks to how mobile tech professionals are, European companies are competing against not just their area or city, but often against Silicon Valley. If Europeans want to get better salary there's one option. Vote with their feet and simply work in SV.

blunte 6y ago
Life is pretty great here. The low salaries are a bit disappointing, but other aspects of life (including vacation time and work/life balance) is far superior. Sometimes the money is just not a good enough reason to leave. However, if the money can increase here, and we can stay here, then yes please!
- bradleyjg 6y ago
  From the SV employer’s perspective that’s the rub in trying to take advantage of the “inefficiency”. They can hire talented programmers in Europe for significantly less money but those programmers are going to insist on working less than their SV counterparts. Even if the trade off is worth it considering only first order effects (i.e. $/hr) will those work/life attitudes end up influencing the US workers as well? Not making a value statement here at all, just laying out the consideration.
  - hilbertseries 6y ago
    I work at a company that employs developers in the US and in Europe. The European developers are more upset that they’re paid less, than the US developers care about the European benefits.
    - blunte 6y ago
      Having lived most of my life in the US, and only the last 8 years in NL, I wouldn't move back to the US to an onsite office unless the pay were at least 3-4x higher. If I could work remotely from the mountains in Colorado again, I would consider it for a 3x increase. Less than that, and it's just not worth it. The quality of life here is that much better imo.
      - tharkun__ 6y ago
        Absolutely agreed. It's sometimes really hard to understand how 'Americans' can't fathom getting stuff done 'the European way'. Somehow it seems impossible to them that having 30 days of vacation from day one of your career is possible. They can't fathom that hours in seat don't equal output. They can't fathom that you can care about your work and still just go home at reasonable hours (and still take care of say a production issue when needed but then obviously go home early next Friday or take the day off entirely).
        bradleyjg 6y ago
        The rest of it I can buy but not this part: > They can't fathom that hours in seat don't equal output. Or at least not the implication. Of course those things aren’t strictly equal but it seems like wishful thinking to believe that all those Americans working hard are not accomplishing any more than their European colleagues taking 30 day vacations and leaving at five o’clock. Diminishing returns, sure, but zero returns I don’t buy. On the contrary it’s pretty clear the returns are meaningful. Life is about trade-offs. It doesn’t do anyone any good to pretend there’s such a thing as a free lunch.
        tharkun__ 6y ago
        Fair enough as like you say it's all a scale anyway. For the record I never left at exactly five or started at 9 for that matter back in Germany and I don't either where I am now (Canada). I never felt bad about leaving at 3 in Germany though. I did/do in Canada. _Every_time_.
        blunte 6y ago
        "Hours in seat" provide diminishing returns, just like "lines of code produced" do. It has been a measured fact that productivity per hour curves in the negative direction after about 7 hours per day (in sum, not necessarily contiguous).
- yread 6y ago
  For me the main reason is that I can be fairly sure that my neighbors are not starving, surviving on 7.25$/h jobs, getting crushed by medical debt or choosing not to address their medical issues because of money, there are (almost) no homeless people (in Amsterdam),... Minimum wage is ~1/2-1/3 of my salary so I know that everyone is doing OK.
  - krageon 6y ago
    > there are (almost) no homeless people (in Amsterdam) Any space that has few homeless in the Netherlands doesn't have them because the police removes them (that is to say, they dump them elsewhere or otherwise force them to leave).
    - yread 6y ago
      Yes, of course there are people without housing, but there is infrastructure to care for them (I live quite close to one of these houses) so they don't freeze on the streets, don't develop months-untreated abscesses and don't bother me on the street. My taxes pay for that but that's exactly what taxes should pay for IMO.
yrgulation 6y ago
I doubt its that easy - immigrating to the us is pretty difficult compared to other countries. Take canada and their express entry program - although salaries are pretty low there.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > Take canada and their express entry program - although salaries are pretty low there Canada has out of control immigrations quotas. It's no wonder their own government are bragging that their devs are worth 50K less than in America [0]. [0] https://globalnews.ca/news/4178326/amazon-vancouver-tech-workers-pay/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4178326/amazon-vancouver-tech-wor...
dukeyukey 6y ago
Getting a visa isn't that easy, one reason salaries haven't gone up as much as they could have. I'd absolutely love to work in the US, but realistically it's a multi-year plan that could be scuppered by a visa lottery, HR policies around visa sponsorship, or an administration that decides it doesn't like my nationality any more. If you don't already have family in the US, getting in is a real arse.
- sneak 6y ago
  You can always contract remotely. There are tons of smaller scrappy SV companies that are happy to take the talent wherever they can find it. You'll sleep weird hours, but such is life on the global internet.
  - tharkun__ 6y ago
    This and since covid it doesn't even have to be SV. I know our company is looking for people "globally" now and what it really means is that it has to be within reasonable time differences to existing offices. But if you're off by a few too many hours but willing to work the time zones closer to the offices, then we are OK with that. It does make sense to me as long as it's not too far off. It has to be livable. What that means I guess depends on your life situation and whether you are a night owl or an early bird for example and what covid opening hours are in stores etc.
  - dukeyukey 6y ago
    Sadly, most US companies will still pay local rates to remote contractors. I imagine there are exceptions, but they'll be nigh-on impossible to find without a network in SV.
codebolt 6y ago
Not something done on a whim when you have a family. Might consider a remote position, though. My current job has decent benefits, and I do enjoy the work, but the pay absolutely stinks compared with the value of the work I'm performing. If openings start flying around with anything close to SV-level compensation I'd be hard pressed not to consider applying.

blunte 6y ago

Life is pretty great here. The low salaries are a bit disappointing, but other aspects of life (including vacation time and work/life balance) is far superior. Sometimes the money is just not a good enough reason to leave. However, if the money can increase here, and we can stay here, then yes please!

bradleyjg 6y ago
From the SV employer’s perspective that’s the rub in trying to take advantage of the “inefficiency”. They can hire talented programmers in Europe for significantly less money but those programmers are going to insist on working less than their SV counterparts. Even if the trade off is worth it considering only first order effects (i.e. $/hr) will those work/life attitudes end up influencing the US workers as well? Not making a value statement here at all, just laying out the consideration.
- hilbertseries 6y ago
  I work at a company that employs developers in the US and in Europe. The European developers are more upset that they’re paid less, than the US developers care about the European benefits.
  - blunte 6y ago
    Having lived most of my life in the US, and only the last 8 years in NL, I wouldn't move back to the US to an onsite office unless the pay were at least 3-4x higher. If I could work remotely from the mountains in Colorado again, I would consider it for a 3x increase. Less than that, and it's just not worth it. The quality of life here is that much better imo.
    - tharkun__ 6y ago
      Absolutely agreed. It's sometimes really hard to understand how 'Americans' can't fathom getting stuff done 'the European way'. Somehow it seems impossible to them that having 30 days of vacation from day one of your career is possible. They can't fathom that hours in seat don't equal output. They can't fathom that you can care about your work and still just go home at reasonable hours (and still take care of say a production issue when needed but then obviously go home early next Friday or take the day off entirely).
      - bradleyjg 6y ago
        The rest of it I can buy but not this part: > They can't fathom that hours in seat don't equal output. Or at least not the implication. Of course those things aren’t strictly equal but it seems like wishful thinking to believe that all those Americans working hard are not accomplishing any more than their European colleagues taking 30 day vacations and leaving at five o’clock. Diminishing returns, sure, but zero returns I don’t buy. On the contrary it’s pretty clear the returns are meaningful. Life is about trade-offs. It doesn’t do anyone any good to pretend there’s such a thing as a free lunch.
        tharkun__ 6y ago
        Fair enough as like you say it's all a scale anyway. For the record I never left at exactly five or started at 9 for that matter back in Germany and I don't either where I am now (Canada). I never felt bad about leaving at 3 in Germany though. I did/do in Canada. _Every_time_.
        blunte 6y ago
        "Hours in seat" provide diminishing returns, just like "lines of code produced" do. It has been a measured fact that productivity per hour curves in the negative direction after about 7 hours per day (in sum, not necessarily contiguous).
yread 6y ago
For me the main reason is that I can be fairly sure that my neighbors are not starving, surviving on 7.25$/h jobs, getting crushed by medical debt or choosing not to address their medical issues because of money, there are (almost) no homeless people (in Amsterdam),... Minimum wage is ~1/2-1/3 of my salary so I know that everyone is doing OK.
- krageon 6y ago
  > there are (almost) no homeless people (in Amsterdam) Any space that has few homeless in the Netherlands doesn't have them because the police removes them (that is to say, they dump them elsewhere or otherwise force them to leave).
  - yread 6y ago
    Yes, of course there are people without housing, but there is infrastructure to care for them (I live quite close to one of these houses) so they don't freeze on the streets, don't develop months-untreated abscesses and don't bother me on the street. My taxes pay for that but that's exactly what taxes should pay for IMO.

yrgulation 6y ago

I doubt its that easy - immigrating to the us is pretty difficult compared to other countries. Take canada and their express entry program - although salaries are pretty low there.

908B64B197 6y ago
> Take canada and their express entry program - although salaries are pretty low there Canada has out of control immigrations quotas. It's no wonder their own government are bragging that their devs are worth 50K less than in America [0]. [0] https://globalnews.ca/news/4178326/amazon-vancouver-tech-workers-pay/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4178326/amazon-vancouver-tech-wor...

dukeyukey 6y ago

Getting a visa isn't that easy, one reason salaries haven't gone up as much as they could have. I'd absolutely love to work in the US, but realistically it's a multi-year plan that could be scuppered by a visa lottery, HR policies around visa sponsorship, or an administration that decides it doesn't like my nationality any more. If you don't already have family in the US, getting in is a real arse.

sneak 6y ago
You can always contract remotely. There are tons of smaller scrappy SV companies that are happy to take the talent wherever they can find it. You'll sleep weird hours, but such is life on the global internet.
- tharkun__ 6y ago
  This and since covid it doesn't even have to be SV. I know our company is looking for people "globally" now and what it really means is that it has to be within reasonable time differences to existing offices. But if you're off by a few too many hours but willing to work the time zones closer to the offices, then we are OK with that. It does make sense to me as long as it's not too far off. It has to be livable. What that means I guess depends on your life situation and whether you are a night owl or an early bird for example and what covid opening hours are in stores etc.
- dukeyukey 6y ago
  Sadly, most US companies will still pay local rates to remote contractors. I imagine there are exceptions, but they'll be nigh-on impossible to find without a network in SV.

codebolt 6y ago

Not something done on a whim when you have a family. Might consider a remote position, though. My current job has decent benefits, and I do enjoy the work, but the pay absolutely stinks compared with the value of the work I'm performing. If openings start flying around with anything close to SV-level compensation I'd be hard pressed not to consider applying.