6 ms·

I am rather shocked at some of the numbers from his salary survey. I have seen many mid and senior dev Booking positions listed in the recent few years in that

by blunte 6y ago

I am rather shocked at some of the numbers from his salary survey. I have seen many mid and senior dev Booking positions listed in the recent few years in that typical 50-65k range. Likewise for Catawiki. Their listed salaries were significantly higher than what I think is typical here, but I never saw anything over 100k. The #1 challenge is that most salary ranges for advertised positions are not listed. If you are talking to a recruiter, the recruiter can usually give a range, but still I've never heard these numbers. I get approached weekly for "senior" positions that are in the 50-60 range. Frankly, I don't believe the high salaries he talks about are numerous. There may be a few, but it would be shocking to find out that 150+k is typical in the examples he mentions. In the US, particularly west coast and NYC (finance), 200+k is not surprising. 600k? I seriously doubt that is common, unless you're working in a hedge fund and getting 300k bonuses based on company performance. Generally speaking, the Dutch workplace doesn't seem to hold developers in the esteem that they hold managers. Maybe that's reasonable, but it certainly puts the Netherlands at a competitive disadvantage. The company I work for would like to hire 5 Rails devs, but they cannot find anyone with the desired experience at the offered pay.

nilkn 6y ago
600k in Silicon Valley is certainly not unheard of. That's within range for Staff Engineer and EM roles at top companies, and there are a lot of Staff Engineers and EMs. In fact, it can go up quite a bit from there. M2 [0] pay can be in the 700k-900k range, and Director pay is typically 1M+. Keep in mind that salaries rarely go above 250k -- most of this compensation is in stock grants. [0] M2 is an engineering manager with quite a bit of scope, possibly with some M1s as reports. Imagine a group of 20-50 people total. Exact headcount can vary because "scope" is a bit of an abstract concept that is correlated with -- but not perfectly matched to -- headcount.
ecedeno 6y ago
When I was promoted to mid-level developer at Booking in 2017/2018, the salary range for the position started at around 60k. These days, it's probably in the low 70s.
- mistrial9 6y ago
  I made $55k per year in 1990 as a software developer in the San Francisco area, but then Apple/Adobe and others here entered into an illegal hiring pact to fight it.. later, Internet.. things changed. Wages for working people, even to some extent software, have been stagnant for thirty years, while the cost of higher education and distinctive homes rose 300 percent, depending on your setup, health care too.. literal evidence, I can see cars advertised for sale that are essentially the same price point as they were in the 1990s (working person's market), yet the Dow Jones market average went from "breaking ten thousand" to what, thirty thousand plus now? Something is very, very suspect with the high-end money game in the last thirty years. People who do actual work? see George Carlin, he will tell you
- zeku 6y ago
  For comparison I make mid 70s as a mid level dev in a medium cost of living area of the US. I feel that very often when Europe compares itself to the US on this, they only look at the super HCOL areas like SV, Seattle, NYC. I feel like we are underpaid still, compared to SV and NYC devs. For another comparison my coworker was recently promoted to senior dev and he is starting in the mid 90s. Also there is no fancy comp, we have employee health insurance(that we still have to pay for both monthly and when we use any medical service -- for non Americans this is very standard), we have a 401k(retirement portfolio) that our employer matches the first 5% of everything that goes into it. We also have a few other niche benefits, but no fancy comp. I just wanted to give a more realistic portrayal of the usual American dev.
  - blunte 6y ago
    I guess this is worth remembering. There are a lot of lower paying dev jobs in the US, but they don't get much publicity :). Part of the problem is lack of awareness, and prior to more recently, lack of remote options. There are countless job boards and recruiting firms, and millions of "candidates" (many of whom fail FizzBuzz, but that is not visible in a simple resume). If the qualified supply and the demand had awareness of each other, and if remote were an option, it would be better for most people. The companies would be able to acquire the talent they needed, and the talent would have better options. On the other hand, the current system works enough... there may be some low quality developers working at some companies, but they just may be getting enough done that the companies can function. And the more skilled, more motivated people will obviously seek and possibly move for the better jobs and pay.
mjmahone17 6y ago
Your shock at 600k is understandable, but note that the people pulling those numbers mostly don’t need to exist at smaller or less tech oriented companies. It’s primarily either senior engineers who consistently have outsized business impact (for instance identifying and building systems that generate tens of millions of new recurring revenue for the company each year), or are significantly beyond senior, such that they’re having a similar business impact as would be expected of the C-suite of a 10-100 million/year company. When you have a tech company with 10 billion/yr revenue, you need hundreds of people that fit into the above scopes. It’s definitely not most employees, but a career path into those positions becomes possible. Whereas in a smaller or less tech focused business there wouldn’t be enough scope for those people to justify their outsized pay.
- blunte 6y ago
  I think the key here is "tech oriented" companies. If the product of the company is tech, then it's more possible for the devs to make a significant positive revenue impact. In those cases, if the numbers add up (600k dev generates +3+MM revenue per year because of what and how they do), then it makes sense. Perhaps the biggest shift in EU developer salaries will come from a shift in what types of businesses operate here. If that begins with US tech companies expanding here, then great. But I would like to see EU founded and grown tech companies to compete. I'm afraid what probably happens is the good ideas get built here and bought up by the US giants.
tomrod 6y ago
IME, recruiters in the US will give a range from lowest to no higher than midpoint (and often lower).
sammorrowdrums 6y ago
I had a friend work as snr. engineer at a startup taking a pay cut down to 80k, then went to work for big US tech company presumably for a significantly higher salary. All in Amsterdam (with some time remote). Certainly no senior dev in Amsterdam worth their salt would need to work for €55k or even probably €65k unless they chose to work at a startup that cannot pay competitive rate, or have other priorities Edit I should add I'm also earning well above that as snr engineer in Amsterdam at a startup.
- tharkun__ 6y ago
  So this info is a bit old since I haven't been there in a while. When I was working for a contracting company back in Germany maybe 10 years ago, the standard rate they would charge for us was around 75EUR. That's 156kEUR. This is what the "general contractor" is paid by the huge corporation. Not sure how much of that goes to the individual contractor and will depend on negotiation. Also there were some people that were billed at higher rates but obviously they would try and keep the number of those low. Also keep in mind that from that you would have to pay all of the health and employment insurance premiums yourself. If your employer pays you 65kEUR they pay quite a bit on top of that in employment insurance health insurance etc.
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    To give you an idea, a company I work for pays contractor companies around 40-50€/h so about 75k€/year, and out of that the contributor gets about 30k€ before taxes. Also, your 75€/h gives about 125-130k€/year, not 156k. So those guys would probably get paid 50-60k€ before taxes.
    - tharkun__ 6y ago
      Not sure where you are. The example I gave was in Germany as mentioned. Where's yours? I guess it depends on how you calculate as well: My calculation was a simple 75EUR per hour * 40 hours per week * 52 weeks a year to arrive at 156k. We could also go with 75EUR per hour * 8 hours a day * 255 business days in 2021 (I chose Hesse as the state as that's where Frankfurt is located, home to lots of banks and such, i.e. lots of contracting). That's 153k. Since you're a contractor, choose how many weeks of vacation you wanna give yourself and subtract. If you as a contractor get only 30k before taxes, then something is seriously wrong. I worked for a contracting company back when and that's what the rates are based on. I was an internal employee for them and I got paid more than the 30k you quote. I doubt an actual external contractor that we just placed would get less or just on par of what us employees got. That would not make any financial sense, as they would have to pay their own taxes, insurance etc. from it, while we don't.
morei 6y ago
Prepare to be shocked. The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k. Note: 'comp packages'. Their salary won't always be over 150k, but when including stock and bonus, total comp will be. That's many thousands of SWEs. If you look at advertised salaries, you won't see those numbers, because it won't include bonus/stock as those are considered 'at risk'. But considering that to not get bonus/stock you need to be on a verge of getting fired, it's not exactly a large risk. Re 600k: It's not that uncommon. In excess of 5% of Big Tech SWEs make that sort of money.
- Scarblac 6y ago
  > The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k. Nitpick: of those three, only Dublin is in the EU.
- user5994461 6y ago
  >>> Prepare to be shocked. The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k. 1) It's factually wrong. 2) These 3 countries are paying in 3 different currencies so you might want to clarify 150k of WHAT. With an exchange rate of 1.4 in some directions it's actually quite important ^^ 3) No matter the currency, it's still factually wrong :D
  - morei 6y ago
    Do you have a reason you believe it to be factually wrong?
    - user5994461 6y ago
      Knowing people who worked there on lower salary. Recruiter invitations to interview there for a lower salary. If you want to be more specific, you really want to clarify the currency and the location because there is a massive disparity. The highest paying by far is Zurich, in CHF, that also happens to have the lowest exchange rate (though it's been climbing steadily over the past decade).
brabel 6y ago
I am shocked too. The highest advertised salary I've seen recently in the constant emails I get from EU recruiters is around €7,000/month (and that was with a message saying it's well above market rate). I have 15 years of experience in software engineering. EDIT: I had written 70,000 per month but meant 7,000... which is 84,000 per year, or just below 100,000 USD.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
d1zzy 6y ago
The stock compensation is a huge factor. $200k base salary but expect at least $100k/year from stock grants and with the crazy high increasing valuation of tech company stocks that can easily double.
- blunte 6y ago
  $200k base is not shabby at all, unless you live in SF or NYC. $200k is about 168k EUR, and that would give you a really nice life in Amsterdam (which is one of the more expensive EU cities). Assuming you like the character of the city, and pre-covid could tolerate the tourists (big challenge there!), it is a pretty great place. Add some stock options, and bank those for retirement, and you have a heck of a great life just about anywhere in EU.

by blunte 6y ago

nilkn 6y ago

600k in Silicon Valley is certainly not unheard of. That's within range for Staff Engineer and EM roles at top companies, and there are a lot of Staff Engineers and EMs. In fact, it can go up quite a bit from there. M2 [0] pay can be in the 700k-900k range, and Director pay is typically 1M+. Keep in mind that salaries rarely go above 250k -- most of this compensation is in stock grants. [0] M2 is an engineering manager with quite a bit of scope, possibly with some M1s as reports. Imagine a group of 20-50 people total. Exact headcount can vary because "scope" is a bit of an abstract concept that is correlated with -- but not perfectly matched to -- headcount.

ecedeno 6y ago

When I was promoted to mid-level developer at Booking in 2017/2018, the salary range for the position started at around 60k. These days, it's probably in the low 70s.

mistrial9 6y ago
I made $55k per year in 1990 as a software developer in the San Francisco area, but then Apple/Adobe and others here entered into an illegal hiring pact to fight it.. later, Internet.. things changed. Wages for working people, even to some extent software, have been stagnant for thirty years, while the cost of higher education and distinctive homes rose 300 percent, depending on your setup, health care too.. literal evidence, I can see cars advertised for sale that are essentially the same price point as they were in the 1990s (working person's market), yet the Dow Jones market average went from "breaking ten thousand" to what, thirty thousand plus now? Something is very, very suspect with the high-end money game in the last thirty years. People who do actual work? see George Carlin, he will tell you
zeku 6y ago
For comparison I make mid 70s as a mid level dev in a medium cost of living area of the US. I feel that very often when Europe compares itself to the US on this, they only look at the super HCOL areas like SV, Seattle, NYC. I feel like we are underpaid still, compared to SV and NYC devs. For another comparison my coworker was recently promoted to senior dev and he is starting in the mid 90s. Also there is no fancy comp, we have employee health insurance(that we still have to pay for both monthly and when we use any medical service -- for non Americans this is very standard), we have a 401k(retirement portfolio) that our employer matches the first 5% of everything that goes into it. We also have a few other niche benefits, but no fancy comp. I just wanted to give a more realistic portrayal of the usual American dev.
- blunte 6y ago
  I guess this is worth remembering. There are a lot of lower paying dev jobs in the US, but they don't get much publicity :). Part of the problem is lack of awareness, and prior to more recently, lack of remote options. There are countless job boards and recruiting firms, and millions of "candidates" (many of whom fail FizzBuzz, but that is not visible in a simple resume). If the qualified supply and the demand had awareness of each other, and if remote were an option, it would be better for most people. The companies would be able to acquire the talent they needed, and the talent would have better options. On the other hand, the current system works enough... there may be some low quality developers working at some companies, but they just may be getting enough done that the companies can function. And the more skilled, more motivated people will obviously seek and possibly move for the better jobs and pay.

mjmahone17 6y ago

Your shock at 600k is understandable, but note that the people pulling those numbers mostly don’t need to exist at smaller or less tech oriented companies. It’s primarily either senior engineers who consistently have outsized business impact (for instance identifying and building systems that generate tens of millions of new recurring revenue for the company each year), or are significantly beyond senior, such that they’re having a similar business impact as would be expected of the C-suite of a 10-100 million/year company. When you have a tech company with 10 billion/yr revenue, you need hundreds of people that fit into the above scopes. It’s definitely not most employees, but a career path into those positions becomes possible. Whereas in a smaller or less tech focused business there wouldn’t be enough scope for those people to justify their outsized pay.

blunte 6y ago
I think the key here is "tech oriented" companies. If the product of the company is tech, then it's more possible for the devs to make a significant positive revenue impact. In those cases, if the numbers add up (600k dev generates +3+MM revenue per year because of what and how they do), then it makes sense. Perhaps the biggest shift in EU developer salaries will come from a shift in what types of businesses operate here. If that begins with US tech companies expanding here, then great. But I would like to see EU founded and grown tech companies to compete. I'm afraid what probably happens is the good ideas get built here and bought up by the US giants.

tomrod 6y ago

IME, recruiters in the US will give a range from lowest to no higher than midpoint (and often lower).

sammorrowdrums 6y ago

I had a friend work as snr. engineer at a startup taking a pay cut down to 80k, then went to work for big US tech company presumably for a significantly higher salary. All in Amsterdam (with some time remote). Certainly no senior dev in Amsterdam worth their salt would need to work for €55k or even probably €65k unless they chose to work at a startup that cannot pay competitive rate, or have other priorities Edit I should add I'm also earning well above that as snr engineer in Amsterdam at a startup.

tharkun__ 6y ago
So this info is a bit old since I haven't been there in a while. When I was working for a contracting company back in Germany maybe 10 years ago, the standard rate they would charge for us was around 75EUR. That's 156kEUR. This is what the "general contractor" is paid by the huge corporation. Not sure how much of that goes to the individual contractor and will depend on negotiation. Also there were some people that were billed at higher rates but obviously they would try and keep the number of those low. Also keep in mind that from that you would have to pay all of the health and employment insurance premiums yourself. If your employer pays you 65kEUR they pay quite a bit on top of that in employment insurance health insurance etc.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  To give you an idea, a company I work for pays contractor companies around 40-50€/h so about 75k€/year, and out of that the contributor gets about 30k€ before taxes. Also, your 75€/h gives about 125-130k€/year, not 156k. So those guys would probably get paid 50-60k€ before taxes.
  - tharkun__ 6y ago
    Not sure where you are. The example I gave was in Germany as mentioned. Where's yours? I guess it depends on how you calculate as well: My calculation was a simple 75EUR per hour * 40 hours per week * 52 weeks a year to arrive at 156k. We could also go with 75EUR per hour * 8 hours a day * 255 business days in 2021 (I chose Hesse as the state as that's where Frankfurt is located, home to lots of banks and such, i.e. lots of contracting). That's 153k. Since you're a contractor, choose how many weeks of vacation you wanna give yourself and subtract. If you as a contractor get only 30k before taxes, then something is seriously wrong. I worked for a contracting company back when and that's what the rates are based on. I was an internal employee for them and I got paid more than the 30k you quote. I doubt an actual external contractor that we just placed would get less or just on par of what us employees got. That would not make any financial sense, as they would have to pay their own taxes, insurance etc. from it, while we don't.

morei 6y ago

Prepare to be shocked. The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k. Note: 'comp packages'. Their salary won't always be over 150k, but when including stock and bonus, total comp will be. That's many thousands of SWEs. If you look at advertised salaries, you won't see those numbers, because it won't include bonus/stock as those are considered 'at risk'. But considering that to not get bonus/stock you need to be on a verge of getting fired, it's not exactly a large risk. Re 600k: It's not that uncommon. In excess of 5% of Big Tech SWEs make that sort of money.

Scarblac 6y ago
> The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k. Nitpick: of those three, only Dublin is in the EU.
user5994461 6y ago
>>> Prepare to be shocked. The majority of SWEs employed at Google in the EU (Zurich, Dublin, London) have comp packages over 150k. 1) It's factually wrong. 2) These 3 countries are paying in 3 different currencies so you might want to clarify 150k of WHAT. With an exchange rate of 1.4 in some directions it's actually quite important ^^ 3) No matter the currency, it's still factually wrong :D
- morei 6y ago
  Do you have a reason you believe it to be factually wrong?
  - user5994461 6y ago
    Knowing people who worked there on lower salary. Recruiter invitations to interview there for a lower salary. If you want to be more specific, you really want to clarify the currency and the location because there is a massive disparity. The highest paying by far is Zurich, in CHF, that also happens to have the lowest exchange rate (though it's been climbing steadily over the past decade).

brabel 6y ago

I am shocked too. The highest advertised salary I've seen recently in the constant emails I get from EU recruiters is around €7,000/month (and that was with a message saying it's well above market rate). I have 15 years of experience in software engineering. EDIT: I had written 70,000 per month but meant 7,000... which is 84,000 per year, or just below 100,000 USD.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

d1zzy 6y ago

The stock compensation is a huge factor. $200k base salary but expect at least $100k/year from stock grants and with the crazy high increasing valuation of tech company stocks that can easily double.

blunte 6y ago
$200k base is not shabby at all, unless you live in SF or NYC. $200k is about 168k EUR, and that would give you a really nice life in Amsterdam (which is one of the more expensive EU cities). Assuming you like the character of the city, and pre-covid could tolerate the tourists (big challenge there!), it is a pretty great place. Add some stock options, and bank those for retirement, and you have a heck of a great life just about anywhere in EU.