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The irony is that the exact society destabilizing grand visions of the future billionaires advocate for are some of the main drivers behind people embracing Bit

by shiado 6y ago

The irony is that the exact society destabilizing grand visions of the future billionaires advocate for are some of the main drivers behind people embracing Bitcoin. If you push a "you own nothing" WEF approved dystopian tech oligarch reality don't be surprised when people adopt an asset that cannot be confiscated by the government.

lambda_obrien 6y ago
Your government can force you to do or give them anything, don't think math will stop them from trying. If they fail, they'll just lock you up.
throwaway20875 6y ago
Exactly this. Bitcoin is the result of the gross power imbalances present in society. It's ironic that those on the heavier end of the scale, like Gates, are attacking Bitcoin with the cudgel of environmental policy. Rather than fix the power imbalances that are the root cause of his supposed gripe, Gates is advocating for the status quo enjoyed by him and his contemporaries.
- awb 6y ago
  Sure, but Bitcoin's wealth and access is also very concentrated. If you replace USD with BTC, you still have a power imbalance, just a slightly different one.
  - silentsea90 6y ago
    The real power imbalance is the Central Bank's power to confiscate wealth by inflating it away aka money printing, and not to forget the confiscation of physical gold by the US in 1933 (thanks FDR). There is a reason why countries decoupled from the gold standard to fund WW1. They got near infinite access to the nation's wealth. The loser of WW1 ie Germany eventually suffered hyperinflation, as have countries like Zimbabwe and Venezuela recently. Should Governments have the power over your money to the extent of making it go down to zero? That's what happened in all of these cases. So no, BTC != USD
    - warkdarrior 6y ago
      The GP's point is that even if we switch to Bitcoin completely, there will still be a hierarchy of financial players, with regular people at the bottom, just like in the current system. There are ~150MM people working in US, so let's say that only these 150MM need to perform financial transactions (get paid, pay others, etc.). How many of these 150MM will be direct participants in Bitcoin? If not all of them are miners, there will be some necessary centralization. Why should anyone trust the 10,000+ Bitcoin miners? Do I as a regular user have more freedom when dealing with these 10,000 miners vs the 4,000+ US banks?
      - silentsea90 6y ago
        The problem isn't with US banks but central banks, and it isn't with concentration of wealth but confiscation of wealth through money printing We very well might have Coinbase, BlockFi etc. act as crypto banks, and BTC whales as the new rich. That's reward for their work and belief. What do you think is the threat vector from BTC miners? The protocol nullifies such threats. What would be bad is if a central authority could confiscate your work output at its leisure. That's the real battle here
        terse_malvolio 6y ago
        Coinbase is not decoupled from government
        silentsea90 6y ago
        It certainly isn't. Hence, we will continue to have taxes and regulation. However, the BTC mantra is "not your keys not your coin". So if you leave it on Coinbase, you are welcoming attack by nation states to confiscate your cryptocurrency. This isn't an imagined threat. The confiscation of gold by FDR was a very real event that forced citizens to sell gold to the Government at a fixed price (of USD that the state printed at a whim) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
    - 6y ago
- ethagnawl 6y ago
  > The primary goals of the [Gates] foundation are to enhance healthcare and reduce extreme poverty across the globe, and to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology in the U.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundat...
  - throwaway20875 6y ago
    What are you saying? That we should take the mission statement of the Gates foundation at face value and as something that represents the motivations behind everything he does and says?
    - ethagnawl 6y ago
      I'm saying that the Gates Foundation is _fixing the power imbalances that are the root cause of his supposed gripe_.
      - throwaway20875 6y ago
        No you are not, and the Gates foundation has absolutely not done anything to address the actions of central banks or the the United States' weaponization of the current financial system. Giving out malaria nets in Africa has nothing to do with any of this.
andrewclunn 6y ago
People who claim that the world must be saved by them are blinded by the righteousness of their cause. So much that they forget to ask if perhaps instead the world must be saved from them. Then, seeing how they are vilified by those they believe they must save, they either come to see humanity as sinful and unworthy of their help (ironically the better outcome) or as children, incapable of knowing what's best for themselves. Bill Gates is a clear example of the second.
the_local_host 6y ago
> An asset that cannot be confiscated by the government It might be intractable to confiscate bitcoin by attacking the math, but why wouldn't governments just put people in jail until they pay up? With adequate control over the internet, governments would be fairly able to track who's transacting. Moreover for the vast majority of people on earth would still have basically zero money relative to the emerging bitcoin oligarchs. It would be a grossly unequal society, where there would need to be some non-math-based approach to getting money from the wealthy to redistribute to the less fortunate.
- rawtxapp 6y ago
  What would be the reason for imprisoning someone who holds Bitcoin? Don't we live in a free society? And even if they imprison you they won't be able to access your money: https://amp.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3120852/german-who-mined-68-million-bitcoin-others-computers-and-was https://amp.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3120852/germa...
  - peeters 6y ago
    Presumably GP is talking about coercive imprisonment (e.g. contempt of court). If the court has ordered you to give something up, and you don't, they can imprison you to coerce you to obey.
- throwaway20875 6y ago
  >Moreover for the vast majority of people on earth would still have basically zero money relative to the emerging bitcoin oligarchs. It would be a grossly unequal society, where there would need to be some non-math-based approach to getting money from the wealthy to redistribute to the less fortunate. Those oligarchs won't be able to print more bitcoin or exclude (sanctions) their political enemies from conducting trade. Seems fairer than the current system.
  - ruined 6y ago
    >Those oligarchs won't be able to print more bitcoin or exclude (sanctions) their political enemies from conducting trade. Seems fairer than the current system. Sure they would. If bitcoin continues to exist much longer, you'll likely see the larger governments define a set of rules for domestic miners, perhaps including requirements to only process transactions from registered accounts or signed by specific keys, or otherwise authenticated. Any international agreement on such a system reaching significant hash power would fork the ledger into legitimate and illegitimate versions, and generate obvious consequences
throwawayffffas 6y ago
I find it really cute that people think that a fully transparent public ledger, where every transaction is written for all to see, is the way to escape government control.
- nprz 6y ago
  Remind me again what currency was used on the Silk Road for purchasing illicit goods and services. And how many of those vendors were prosecuted by the US gov?
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  Monero will hopefully make it hard enough that governments can't discover the information without significant effort. They'll probably still be able to target specific individuals but perhaps we can stop dragnet surveillance of everyone.
- crocodiletears 6y ago
  You take what affordances are offered when there's no hope in the future.
- uh-quan 6y ago
  It is silly if by "escape government control" one means avoiding taxes, buying illegal substances, etc. But if by "escape government control" one means a currency that the government cannot interfere with to censor/stop transactions, or a currency that cannot be debased on the government's whim, the public ledger is exactly why bitcoin can do what it does.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
> If you push a "you own nothing" WEF approved dystopian tech oligarch reality don't be surprised when people adopt an asset that cannot be confiscated by the government. Completely agree. It's like something straight out of cyberpunk. Governments everywhere are just printing money like it's nothing and we're supposed to just accept this. Cryptocurrency doesn't systematically rob people via inflation.

by shiado 6y ago

lambda_obrien 6y ago

Your government can force you to do or give them anything, don't think math will stop them from trying. If they fail, they'll just lock you up.

throwaway20875 6y ago

Exactly this. Bitcoin is the result of the gross power imbalances present in society. It's ironic that those on the heavier end of the scale, like Gates, are attacking Bitcoin with the cudgel of environmental policy. Rather than fix the power imbalances that are the root cause of his supposed gripe, Gates is advocating for the status quo enjoyed by him and his contemporaries.

awb 6y ago
Sure, but Bitcoin's wealth and access is also very concentrated. If you replace USD with BTC, you still have a power imbalance, just a slightly different one.
- silentsea90 6y ago
  The real power imbalance is the Central Bank's power to confiscate wealth by inflating it away aka money printing, and not to forget the confiscation of physical gold by the US in 1933 (thanks FDR). There is a reason why countries decoupled from the gold standard to fund WW1. They got near infinite access to the nation's wealth. The loser of WW1 ie Germany eventually suffered hyperinflation, as have countries like Zimbabwe and Venezuela recently. Should Governments have the power over your money to the extent of making it go down to zero? That's what happened in all of these cases. So no, BTC != USD
  - warkdarrior 6y ago
    The GP's point is that even if we switch to Bitcoin completely, there will still be a hierarchy of financial players, with regular people at the bottom, just like in the current system. There are ~150MM people working in US, so let's say that only these 150MM need to perform financial transactions (get paid, pay others, etc.). How many of these 150MM will be direct participants in Bitcoin? If not all of them are miners, there will be some necessary centralization. Why should anyone trust the 10,000+ Bitcoin miners? Do I as a regular user have more freedom when dealing with these 10,000 miners vs the 4,000+ US banks?
    - silentsea90 6y ago
      The problem isn't with US banks but central banks, and it isn't with concentration of wealth but confiscation of wealth through money printing We very well might have Coinbase, BlockFi etc. act as crypto banks, and BTC whales as the new rich. That's reward for their work and belief. What do you think is the threat vector from BTC miners? The protocol nullifies such threats. What would be bad is if a central authority could confiscate your work output at its leisure. That's the real battle here
      - terse_malvolio 6y ago
        Coinbase is not decoupled from government
        silentsea90 6y ago
        It certainly isn't. Hence, we will continue to have taxes and regulation. However, the BTC mantra is "not your keys not your coin". So if you leave it on Coinbase, you are welcoming attack by nation states to confiscate your cryptocurrency. This isn't an imagined threat. The confiscation of gold by FDR was a very real event that forced citizens to sell gold to the Government at a fixed price (of USD that the state printed at a whim) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
  - 6y ago
ethagnawl 6y ago
> The primary goals of the [Gates] foundation are to enhance healthcare and reduce extreme poverty across the globe, and to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology in the U.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundat...
- throwaway20875 6y ago
  What are you saying? That we should take the mission statement of the Gates foundation at face value and as something that represents the motivations behind everything he does and says?
  - ethagnawl 6y ago
    I'm saying that the Gates Foundation is _fixing the power imbalances that are the root cause of his supposed gripe_.
    - throwaway20875 6y ago
      No you are not, and the Gates foundation has absolutely not done anything to address the actions of central banks or the the United States' weaponization of the current financial system. Giving out malaria nets in Africa has nothing to do with any of this.

andrewclunn 6y ago

People who claim that the world must be saved by them are blinded by the righteousness of their cause. So much that they forget to ask if perhaps instead the world must be saved from them. Then, seeing how they are vilified by those they believe they must save, they either come to see humanity as sinful and unworthy of their help (ironically the better outcome) or as children, incapable of knowing what's best for themselves. Bill Gates is a clear example of the second.

the_local_host 6y ago

> An asset that cannot be confiscated by the government It might be intractable to confiscate bitcoin by attacking the math, but why wouldn't governments just put people in jail until they pay up? With adequate control over the internet, governments would be fairly able to track who's transacting. Moreover for the vast majority of people on earth would still have basically zero money relative to the emerging bitcoin oligarchs. It would be a grossly unequal society, where there would need to be some non-math-based approach to getting money from the wealthy to redistribute to the less fortunate.

rawtxapp 6y ago
What would be the reason for imprisoning someone who holds Bitcoin? Don't we live in a free society? And even if they imprison you they won't be able to access your money: https://amp.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3120852/german-who-mined-68-million-bitcoin-others-computers-and-was https://amp.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3120852/germa...
- peeters 6y ago
  Presumably GP is talking about coercive imprisonment (e.g. contempt of court). If the court has ordered you to give something up, and you don't, they can imprison you to coerce you to obey.
throwaway20875 6y ago
>Moreover for the vast majority of people on earth would still have basically zero money relative to the emerging bitcoin oligarchs. It would be a grossly unequal society, where there would need to be some non-math-based approach to getting money from the wealthy to redistribute to the less fortunate. Those oligarchs won't be able to print more bitcoin or exclude (sanctions) their political enemies from conducting trade. Seems fairer than the current system.
- ruined 6y ago
  >Those oligarchs won't be able to print more bitcoin or exclude (sanctions) their political enemies from conducting trade. Seems fairer than the current system. Sure they would. If bitcoin continues to exist much longer, you'll likely see the larger governments define a set of rules for domestic miners, perhaps including requirements to only process transactions from registered accounts or signed by specific keys, or otherwise authenticated. Any international agreement on such a system reaching significant hash power would fork the ledger into legitimate and illegitimate versions, and generate obvious consequences

throwawayffffas 6y ago

I find it really cute that people think that a fully transparent public ledger, where every transaction is written for all to see, is the way to escape government control.

nprz 6y ago
Remind me again what currency was used on the Silk Road for purchasing illicit goods and services. And how many of those vendors were prosecuted by the US gov?
matheusmoreira 6y ago
Monero will hopefully make it hard enough that governments can't discover the information without significant effort. They'll probably still be able to target specific individuals but perhaps we can stop dragnet surveillance of everyone.
crocodiletears 6y ago
You take what affordances are offered when there's no hope in the future.
uh-quan 6y ago
It is silly if by "escape government control" one means avoiding taxes, buying illegal substances, etc. But if by "escape government control" one means a currency that the government cannot interfere with to censor/stop transactions, or a currency that cannot be debased on the government's whim, the public ledger is exactly why bitcoin can do what it does.

matheusmoreira 6y ago

> If you push a "you own nothing" WEF approved dystopian tech oligarch reality don't be surprised when people adopt an asset that cannot be confiscated by the government. Completely agree. It's like something straight out of cyberpunk. Governments everywhere are just printing money like it's nothing and we're supposed to just accept this. Cryptocurrency doesn't systematically rob people via inflation.