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Will lots of electricity be lost in transmission? Also, this article is very scant on information, why is this project mutually beneficial for Greece, Cyprus an

Will lots of electricity be lost in transmission? Also, this article is very scant on information, why is this project mutually beneficial for Greece, Cyprus and Israel? I understand a bit the other commenter who thinks it's in order to poke Turkey in the eye.

siculars 6y ago
Greece, Cyprus and Israel are natural allies in the geo political oneupsmanship that is the middle east. Israel provides the technology and protection to execute this maneuver.
- RobertoG 6y ago
  I think you are underestimating greatly Greece military capabilities with that comment.
  - siculars 6y ago
    No, I’m fairly confident in that comment. Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-strongest-military-forces-middle-east/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-st... https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-nations-2020-comparing-global-armed-forces/ https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-...
    - herodoturtle 6y ago
      > Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece. Those rankings are accurate when looking through the lens of "how many offensive resources do they have", but when you say "on virtually any dimension" I think one needs to also take geography into account. For example Switzerland is also ranked well below Israel, but good luck invading the Swiss on their home turf.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        Switzerland isn't a great example; they're on friendly enough terms with the EU their air force had 8-5 office hours until a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swiss-air-force-ethiopian-airlines-hijacking-office-hours https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swis... Israel is... not in a comparable "surrounded by friendly democracies" scenario.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        The Swiss thing is a weird one because anyone who actually wants to invade Switzerland is probably going to be mad enough to just start bombing all the civilians with nerve gas or similar. The Swiss air force for example consists of some F-5s and some regular Hornets so I wouldn't bet on them for long either.
    - tim333 6y ago
      Greece is part of both NATO and the EU which would likely be an issue for anyone going military on them.
  - ocschwar 6y ago
    Apples and oranges. It's been 2200 years since Jews and Greeks last fought, and both sides aim to keep it that way. Israel has 0 island-hopping capabilities compared to Greece's ability to patrol its Aegean waters.
    - marshmallow_12 6y ago
      Israel has a navy, and nuclear-fitted subs allegedly.
      - newsclues 6y ago
        Navy’s aren’t interchangeable. Is real has many costal patrol ships and a few subs. The Greeks have a navy suitable for their archipelago waters
        ocschwar 6y ago
        Israel could do Greece a favor send some IDF forces to play as the Turks and war game a land invasion on the Thracian border. It would be a useful exercise for Greece because Israel's infantry capabilities map closer to Turkey's than to Greece's.
        elorant 6y ago
        Greece and Israel do a joint military exercise each year on the Greek peninsula. Mostly land and air forces.
      - kuschku 6y ago
        Israel and Greece even use the same dieselhydroelectric TKMS submarines (just Israel using a special larger version with special features).
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      > It's been 2200 years since Jews and Greeks last fought Which conflict was that?
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Since this is a counter to Turkish influence, it is a good thing
- cobookman 6y ago
  Israel also just signed a bunch of peace deals. With this network easily expanded to those countries. So long as Israel plans for a future where such arrangements get rescinded, they could safely operate an energy market across the middle east and parts of Europe. Could be a good counter way to counter russian oil, and pave way for a very lucrative post-oil society. Middle eastern countries have a lot of solar and empty land for energy-storage. With many of these middle eastern countries having the capital for large green-tech investments.
_Microft 6y ago
It is a high-voltage direct current transmission line, so I would expect losses to be well below 5% per 1000km. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Advantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Ad...
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Yeah, DC is pretty much a need for under(salt)water, maybe except for very short distances.
  - marshmallow_12 6y ago
    Saltwater specifically, or just in practice?
    - marcosdumay 6y ago
      The more conductive the surroundings of the cables, the more losses you'll get by induction. Fresh water is way worse than air, and salt water way worse than fresh.
      - ziofill 6y ago
        worse as in more conductive
        marcosdumay 6y ago
        Worse as in larger losses, that is the consequence of more conductivity, so yeah, you can read it that way too.
    - bombcar 6y ago
      I believe AC current creates magnetic interference that is greatly magnified in water - causing "drag" on the transmission if you will.
parsimo2010 6y ago
I expect the cables will be quite fat (physically) which reduces their resistance. Also, by increasing the voltage, you decrease the current for any given power, which decreases the resistive losses. So yes, there will be some losses in transmission (as is the case for literally all power transmission methods), but engineers clearly consider this and design around it.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  HVDC cables are very efficient physically. Haven't dived into this cable's details yet, but you can push 1.5GW over two conductors roughly 5" in diameter each.
Someone 6y ago
It enables trade in electricity between the countries. Certainly with more and more power coming from renewables that can’t be switched on or off at will, that’s a gain for all. Also, as to the poking, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Authority_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Authority_of_Cypru... says: “In 2015, the EAC generated a total of 4,128 GWh of electricity consuming 947,226 tonnes of fuel costing €288,632,000. Maximum demand in the areas controlled by the Republic of Cyprus reached 939 MW. A total of 2.0 GWh of the produced electricity in 2015 valued €240,000 ended up in the area occupied by Turkey and no money could be collected for it.” I guess that might stop once Cyprus can export power to the EU (but I also wonder why they would produce such excessive amounts of electricity. Could be to keep the peace, because they promised the UN, or something similar?)
- mordae 6y ago
  So the beaches of Iraklion won't smell like diesel anymore?
- petertodd 6y ago
  About 36% of Cyprus by area has been occupied by Turkey since 1974: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus The amount that couldn't be collected is less than 1% of the total generation. So my guess is it's due to decades old infrastructure where lines just happen to cross over to where the dividing line ended up. Something similar happened in Berlin, where two West Berlin train lines happened to pass through East Berlin briefly, and were allowed to continue to do so even after the wall went up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn I can easily see the utility deciding that it's easier and cheaper to just let a small bit of power get stolen than incur the costs of changing that infrastructure, as well as the PR costs of cutting off that power. Overall grid losses are likely to be 5% or so anyway.
  - Someone 6y ago
    Oops. Misread that American comma thousands separator as a decimal one, thinking it was close to 50%. That makes a huge difference.
cblconfederate 6y ago
The islands need connections to have a stable grid. Crete for example has maxed out its capacity to produce from renewables and needed new cables to export to the mainland. For this reason it still runs an oil plant. Islands in general are a very hard case for renewables. The project that is meant to "poke turkey in the eye" is the EuroMed gas pipeline which is a different project. But to be fair, turkey is welcome to join both forums, although this will probably mean that they will have to accept the application of international law in their maritime borders
simonh 6y ago
Israel has a complicated relationship with Turkey. The current islamist ruling party in Turkey is anti-Zionist and are keen on showing solidarity with the Palestinians. On the other hand Israel and Turkey have mutual regional enemies and have collaborated both economically and militarily. Turkey manufactures and uses the Israeli Popeye missile under license, and I'm sure there are other collaborations I'm not aware of. Israeli teams have helped in earthquake relief efforts in Turkey. Historically the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire were loyal subjects, because Ottoman hegemony provided them with security against their Arab neighbours. So I doubt the Israelis are primarily doing this to spite the Turks, they're not exactly best buddies and it's useful to have leverage, but it's not in their interests to antagonise Turkey unnecessarily. I think it's just a matter of Israel looking after their own best interests in terms of energy security. To be honest Greeks and Cypriots making life better for themselves doesn't have to be inherently a slight against Turkey either. I think the geopolitical dimension of this is over-baked.

siculars 6y ago

Greece, Cyprus and Israel are natural allies in the geo political oneupsmanship that is the middle east. Israel provides the technology and protection to execute this maneuver.

RobertoG 6y ago
I think you are underestimating greatly Greece military capabilities with that comment.
- siculars 6y ago
  No, I’m fairly confident in that comment. Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-strongest-military-forces-middle-east/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-st... https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-nations-2020-comparing-global-armed-forces/ https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-...
  - herodoturtle 6y ago
    > Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece. Those rankings are accurate when looking through the lens of "how many offensive resources do they have", but when you say "on virtually any dimension" I think one needs to also take geography into account. For example Switzerland is also ranked well below Israel, but good luck invading the Swiss on their home turf.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      Switzerland isn't a great example; they're on friendly enough terms with the EU their air force had 8-5 office hours until a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swiss-air-force-ethiopian-airlines-hijacking-office-hours https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swis... Israel is... not in a comparable "surrounded by friendly democracies" scenario.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      The Swiss thing is a weird one because anyone who actually wants to invade Switzerland is probably going to be mad enough to just start bombing all the civilians with nerve gas or similar. The Swiss air force for example consists of some F-5s and some regular Hornets so I wouldn't bet on them for long either.
  - tim333 6y ago
    Greece is part of both NATO and the EU which would likely be an issue for anyone going military on them.
- ocschwar 6y ago
  Apples and oranges. It's been 2200 years since Jews and Greeks last fought, and both sides aim to keep it that way. Israel has 0 island-hopping capabilities compared to Greece's ability to patrol its Aegean waters.
  - marshmallow_12 6y ago
    Israel has a navy, and nuclear-fitted subs allegedly.
    - newsclues 6y ago
      Navy’s aren’t interchangeable. Is real has many costal patrol ships and a few subs. The Greeks have a navy suitable for their archipelago waters
      - ocschwar 6y ago
        Israel could do Greece a favor send some IDF forces to play as the Turks and war game a land invasion on the Thracian border. It would be a useful exercise for Greece because Israel's infantry capabilities map closer to Turkey's than to Greece's.
        elorant 6y ago
        Greece and Israel do a joint military exercise each year on the Greek peninsula. Mostly land and air forces.
    - kuschku 6y ago
      Israel and Greece even use the same dieselhydroelectric TKMS submarines (just Israel using a special larger version with special features).
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    > It's been 2200 years since Jews and Greeks last fought Which conflict was that?
koheripbal 6y ago
Since this is a counter to Turkish influence, it is a good thing
cobookman 6y ago
Israel also just signed a bunch of peace deals. With this network easily expanded to those countries. So long as Israel plans for a future where such arrangements get rescinded, they could safely operate an energy market across the middle east and parts of Europe. Could be a good counter way to counter russian oil, and pave way for a very lucrative post-oil society. Middle eastern countries have a lot of solar and empty land for energy-storage. With many of these middle eastern countries having the capital for large green-tech investments.

_Microft 6y ago

It is a high-voltage direct current transmission line, so I would expect losses to be well below 5% per 1000km. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Advantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Ad...

raverbashing 6y ago
Yeah, DC is pretty much a need for under(salt)water, maybe except for very short distances.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  Saltwater specifically, or just in practice?
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    The more conductive the surroundings of the cables, the more losses you'll get by induction. Fresh water is way worse than air, and salt water way worse than fresh.
    - ziofill 6y ago
      worse as in more conductive
      - marcosdumay 6y ago
        Worse as in larger losses, that is the consequence of more conductivity, so yeah, you can read it that way too.
  - bombcar 6y ago
    I believe AC current creates magnetic interference that is greatly magnified in water - causing "drag" on the transmission if you will.

parsimo2010 6y ago

I expect the cables will be quite fat (physically) which reduces their resistance. Also, by increasing the voltage, you decrease the current for any given power, which decreases the resistive losses. So yes, there will be some losses in transmission (as is the case for literally all power transmission methods), but engineers clearly consider this and design around it.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
HVDC cables are very efficient physically. Haven't dived into this cable's details yet, but you can push 1.5GW over two conductors roughly 5" in diameter each.

Someone 6y ago

It enables trade in electricity between the countries. Certainly with more and more power coming from renewables that can’t be switched on or off at will, that’s a gain for all. Also, as to the poking, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Authority_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Authority_of_Cypru... says: “In 2015, the EAC generated a total of 4,128 GWh of electricity consuming 947,226 tonnes of fuel costing €288,632,000. Maximum demand in the areas controlled by the Republic of Cyprus reached 939 MW. A total of 2.0 GWh of the produced electricity in 2015 valued €240,000 ended up in the area occupied by Turkey and no money could be collected for it.” I guess that might stop once Cyprus can export power to the EU (but I also wonder why they would produce such excessive amounts of electricity. Could be to keep the peace, because they promised the UN, or something similar?)

mordae 6y ago
So the beaches of Iraklion won't smell like diesel anymore?
petertodd 6y ago
About 36% of Cyprus by area has been occupied by Turkey since 1974: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus The amount that couldn't be collected is less than 1% of the total generation. So my guess is it's due to decades old infrastructure where lines just happen to cross over to where the dividing line ended up. Something similar happened in Berlin, where two West Berlin train lines happened to pass through East Berlin briefly, and were allowed to continue to do so even after the wall went up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn I can easily see the utility deciding that it's easier and cheaper to just let a small bit of power get stolen than incur the costs of changing that infrastructure, as well as the PR costs of cutting off that power. Overall grid losses are likely to be 5% or so anyway.
- Someone 6y ago
  Oops. Misread that American comma thousands separator as a decimal one, thinking it was close to 50%. That makes a huge difference.

cblconfederate 6y ago

The islands need connections to have a stable grid. Crete for example has maxed out its capacity to produce from renewables and needed new cables to export to the mainland. For this reason it still runs an oil plant. Islands in general are a very hard case for renewables. The project that is meant to "poke turkey in the eye" is the EuroMed gas pipeline which is a different project. But to be fair, turkey is welcome to join both forums, although this will probably mean that they will have to accept the application of international law in their maritime borders

simonh 6y ago

Israel has a complicated relationship with Turkey. The current islamist ruling party in Turkey is anti-Zionist and are keen on showing solidarity with the Palestinians. On the other hand Israel and Turkey have mutual regional enemies and have collaborated both economically and militarily. Turkey manufactures and uses the Israeli Popeye missile under license, and I'm sure there are other collaborations I'm not aware of. Israeli teams have helped in earthquake relief efforts in Turkey. Historically the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire were loyal subjects, because Ottoman hegemony provided them with security against their Arab neighbours. So I doubt the Israelis are primarily doing this to spite the Turks, they're not exactly best buddies and it's useful to have leverage, but it's not in their interests to antagonise Turkey unnecessarily. I think it's just a matter of Israel looking after their own best interests in terms of energy security. To be honest Greeks and Cypriots making life better for themselves doesn't have to be inherently a slight against Turkey either. I think the geopolitical dimension of this is over-baked.