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Others have explained why certain jobs are "segregated", and how sex work could plausibly fit into that category. But even if it does not, there's nothing we ca

Others have explained why certain jobs are "segregated", and how sex work could plausibly fit into that category. But even if it does not, there's nothing we can learn about sex work from the reactions described above. Isn't it strange how most programmers think that specialist barista work is not demeaning, but would quit on the spot if they were instructed to serve morning coffee to the management? Oh wait, it's not strange at all! Most people who work as programmmers do not want to serve coffee, and will naturally coordinate to avoid normalizing it, lest it become a recurring part of every job description. This happens even though work as a barista does not fit into the 'dangerous and therefore segregated' category. Indeed, there would be nothing unusual about a receptionist who also handles catering at events and serves coffee to management. Or is serving coffee also "effectively partitioned" by "our culture"?

ipaddr 6y ago
At my salary I would welcome serving coffee while everyone is in the standup.
- scruple 6y ago
  A quote that I picked up from my grandfather, "They pay me the same no matter what they've got me doing."
  - mavhc 6y ago
    I'd rather be doing something that will lead me to get paid more in the future, learning new skills
    - necovek 6y ago
      I optimize the way I put dishes in the dishwasher, I design my own closets so I'll have the best design for what I do every day (i.e. clothes I use regularly are close by) — eg. I hang my t-shirts because it's faster than folding them — etc. There are things that can be optimized in serving coffee too! And when you had enough, you can just start serving terrible coffee :D
      - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
        Those things can be optimized, but the payoff for that optimization is pretty low.
        bloodorange 6y ago
        That depends on how you measure the payoff.
- dorgo 6y ago
  Maybe they don't pay you enough if they can afford to waste your skills by making you serving coffee.
wernercd 6y ago
I don't want to serve coffee... or apply application hotfixes (stuff more typically "administrators" or "ops")... but at my pay rate? I'd do it and question why I'm getting paid $$$$$ to do something that $ can do.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  If your boss is the sort of person who would serve coffee to the team you're probably fine cowtowing in this way. Otherwise, I think you risk being tainted in their eyes. They might see the others at the meeting as superior, wrt the role of programmer (etc.); and unconsciously associate you with less technical work. I think you risk "why are we paying $$$$$, isn't that the guy who serves the coffee" even if it's subconscious.
  - wernercd 6y ago
    I think this plays a funny parallel to SNL in 15/16 with Trump and Hillary... Trump played President on the show and Hillary played a bartender. (I may be off slightly on details, but the idea is there - perception is reality). But my attitude is more along the lines of "I'll do what it takes to get the job done" and that attitude comes from my veteran experience - there was no shortage of times where the NCOs (mid level enlisted) would get "dirty" when a job has to get done... You can see it as "why is that person relegated to nothing duties"... I see it as "that guy is part of the team and will get the job done, no matter what". I do get your point and can see how "office politics" can spin things that way.
ahthat 6y ago
If it were part of the job description, there would be nothing wrong with being asked to serve coffee to management, no matter what your position is. If it is not in the job description, then it is generally inappropriate.
- saithound 6y ago
  Neither is wrong in the sense that it goes against any proven cosmic principle (depending on where you live it might go against national law, see below). It's just that, as it was written above, the people who would be requested to do it "feel revulsion at the idea and none would support it". They'd coordinate against ones that tried to normalize such a policy. Many programmers don't want to live in a world where they have to agree to serve coffee every morning if they want to make their living as programmers. And they have sufficient leverage to make sure that things won't turn out that way. Doesn't mean that they have anything against people who choose to make their living serving coffee. That's the whole point. People have even stronger feelings about the importance of sexual service not being part of receptionist job descriptions. They felt so strongly about it that they outlawed the practice, and they make sure that it stays illegal even in countries where prostitution is otherwise allowed.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Many job descriptions have a catch-all “other duties as assigned”.
necovek 6y ago
> Isn't it strange how most programmers think that specialist barista work is not demeaning, but would quit on the spot if they were instructed to serve morning coffee to the management? It's trivial to get that exercise on its' head. If management is ok putting clauses into highly trained workers' contracts about coffee serving, as a highly trained worker, I'd demand they introduce a clause for highly-trained and highly-paid management to clean others' shoes. What's fair is fair, right? If they can't take the same high, non-elitist ground, well, that's a clear-cut abuse, ain't it? But to be honest, "elite" jobs classification is present across the population (ask anyone in "low-skilled" job what they think of University professors; now ask us who know how Universities run internally :)). There is a huge difference if those "non-job" things are "communal" or written-down or coming from authority. I think most people would not have a problem taking the broom and cleaning up after someone else has left a mess at the office ("look at this mess, let me clean it up" — "hey, let me help too"). But having your "boss" order you do it is an altogether different matter.
twic 6y ago
You have missed the point entirely. If a company advertised for a part time programmer, part time barista, how would people react? They might think it was funny, and they probably wouldn't apply, but they wouldn't think that the very existence of such a position was unacceptable.
- TheCoelacanth 6y ago
  There isn't generally a common problem with people being coerced into programming or into serving coffee against their will. There is a common problem with people being coerced into sex.

ipaddr 6y ago

At my salary I would welcome serving coffee while everyone is in the standup.

scruple 6y ago
A quote that I picked up from my grandfather, "They pay me the same no matter what they've got me doing."
- mavhc 6y ago
  I'd rather be doing something that will lead me to get paid more in the future, learning new skills
  - necovek 6y ago
    I optimize the way I put dishes in the dishwasher, I design my own closets so I'll have the best design for what I do every day (i.e. clothes I use regularly are close by) — eg. I hang my t-shirts because it's faster than folding them — etc. There are things that can be optimized in serving coffee too! And when you had enough, you can just start serving terrible coffee :D
    - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
      Those things can be optimized, but the payoff for that optimization is pretty low.
      - bloodorange 6y ago
        That depends on how you measure the payoff.
dorgo 6y ago
Maybe they don't pay you enough if they can afford to waste your skills by making you serving coffee.

wernercd 6y ago

I don't want to serve coffee... or apply application hotfixes (stuff more typically "administrators" or "ops")... but at my pay rate? I'd do it and question why I'm getting paid $$$$$ to do something that $ can do.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago
If your boss is the sort of person who would serve coffee to the team you're probably fine cowtowing in this way. Otherwise, I think you risk being tainted in their eyes. They might see the others at the meeting as superior, wrt the role of programmer (etc.); and unconsciously associate you with less technical work. I think you risk "why are we paying $$$$$, isn't that the guy who serves the coffee" even if it's subconscious.
- wernercd 6y ago
  I think this plays a funny parallel to SNL in 15/16 with Trump and Hillary... Trump played President on the show and Hillary played a bartender. (I may be off slightly on details, but the idea is there - perception is reality). But my attitude is more along the lines of "I'll do what it takes to get the job done" and that attitude comes from my veteran experience - there was no shortage of times where the NCOs (mid level enlisted) would get "dirty" when a job has to get done... You can see it as "why is that person relegated to nothing duties"... I see it as "that guy is part of the team and will get the job done, no matter what". I do get your point and can see how "office politics" can spin things that way.

ahthat 6y ago

If it were part of the job description, there would be nothing wrong with being asked to serve coffee to management, no matter what your position is. If it is not in the job description, then it is generally inappropriate.

saithound 6y ago
Neither is wrong in the sense that it goes against any proven cosmic principle (depending on where you live it might go against national law, see below). It's just that, as it was written above, the people who would be requested to do it "feel revulsion at the idea and none would support it". They'd coordinate against ones that tried to normalize such a policy. Many programmers don't want to live in a world where they have to agree to serve coffee every morning if they want to make their living as programmers. And they have sufficient leverage to make sure that things won't turn out that way. Doesn't mean that they have anything against people who choose to make their living serving coffee. That's the whole point. People have even stronger feelings about the importance of sexual service not being part of receptionist job descriptions. They felt so strongly about it that they outlawed the practice, and they make sure that it stays illegal even in countries where prostitution is otherwise allowed.
sokoloff 6y ago
Many job descriptions have a catch-all “other duties as assigned”.

necovek 6y ago

> Isn't it strange how most programmers think that specialist barista work is not demeaning, but would quit on the spot if they were instructed to serve morning coffee to the management? It's trivial to get that exercise on its' head. If management is ok putting clauses into highly trained workers' contracts about coffee serving, as a highly trained worker, I'd demand they introduce a clause for highly-trained and highly-paid management to clean others' shoes. What's fair is fair, right? If they can't take the same high, non-elitist ground, well, that's a clear-cut abuse, ain't it? But to be honest, "elite" jobs classification is present across the population (ask anyone in "low-skilled" job what they think of University professors; now ask us who know how Universities run internally :)). There is a huge difference if those "non-job" things are "communal" or written-down or coming from authority. I think most people would not have a problem taking the broom and cleaning up after someone else has left a mess at the office ("look at this mess, let me clean it up" — "hey, let me help too"). But having your "boss" order you do it is an altogether different matter.

twic 6y ago

You have missed the point entirely. If a company advertised for a part time programmer, part time barista, how would people react? They might think it was funny, and they probably wouldn't apply, but they wouldn't think that the very existence of such a position was unacceptable.

TheCoelacanth 6y ago
There isn't generally a common problem with people being coerced into programming or into serving coffee against their will. There is a common problem with people being coerced into sex.