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> "because their biological sex is male" but writing that is awkward and the most obvious/common interpretation of "because they are men" is transphobic. This
by tux1968 6y ago
> "because their biological sex is male" but writing that is awkward and the most obvious/common interpretation of "because they are men" is transphobic.
This is needlessyly pedantic.
- cmeacham98 6y agoDisagree. "Trans women are men", in a similar vein to using he/his to refer to trans women, is a tactic used by bigots to indicate that they believe trans women are not "real women" and should be universally treated by society as men. When writing my comment I don't want to have to insert several sentences explaining the nuance that I understand and respect the gender of trans women, but that this is one of those rare cases where we might need to treat them as their biological sex, because that is what determines things about their physical body, and their physical body is what matters right now. As such, I intentionally avoid vague phrases commonly used by transphobes today.
- tux1968 6y agoFair enough, but the reason they are being excluded from women's sport is because they are not seen as truly women. If they were indistinguishable from women, there would be no way to exclude them without excluding all women. So as soon as we have this discussion, we have to admit there is a difference between a transgender woman and a woman. It may be a bit clumsy to refer to them as men, but that is actually the basis of why they are being excluded, because of their "man-ness". That's the underlying reason. I don't think it's transphobic to discuss that openly or to invent an explanation relying on "testosterone".
- cmeacham98 6y agoWhat about someone with breasts, genitals, and other traits of a woman, but also the muscles and testosterone of a man? (I believe the common term for people like this is "intersex".) I think most people would agree they are a women, but also almost all people making the "trans women should play men's sports" argument would also think this person should play men's sports. That's because the actual dividing line is a biological advantage. For cisgendered people this line is relatively cleanly drawn along gender, which leads to the names "men's sports" and "women's sports". However, there are groups of people for which this doesn't apply. Using it as an opportunity to call trans women men is needlessly insensitive in my opinion.
- tux1968 6y agoI don't know of any woman has ever been denied entry to woman's sport because she has too much muscular development. Think of the Williams sisters in tennis for example. As for being insensitive to call someone a "man", i think you're conflating gender and biological sex. When someone is excluded from women's sport because they are not a woman, it's because of their biological background, not because of their avowed gender.
- cmeacham98 6y ago> I don't know of any woman has ever been denied entry to woman's sport because she has too much muscular development. Think of the Williams sisters in tennis for example. Sorry, I shouldn't have used a bad hypothetical about muscles and should have just explicitly said "intersex people". Regardless, here's a page that documents examples of what I mean, including in high-profile events like the Olympics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports I would like to especially draw attention to this case: > In 1986, Spanish hurdler Maria José Martínez-Patiño was dismissed and publicly shamed after failing a chromosomal test. She fought the ruling against her, arguing that she could not have a competitive advantage because her intersex variation resulted in her having no functional testosterone. Two years later, the IAAF gave Martínez-Patiño the green light to compete again. Note how although she has traits unambiguously associated with the male biological sex, she was still allowed to compete as a women, and as a matter of fact the argument she made was that those traits did not give her an advantage. The point I am trying to make is that the lines in sports are not as cleanly drawn between "men" and "women" as commonly assumed. There are people who are almost universally accepted as cis women banned from women's sports for reasons similar to arguments made about trans athletes. Humans just generally do not fit easily into binary categories when looked at as a whole. EDIT: Actually, I think this page makes my point even cleaner, without the associated baggage of "well intersex people are partially men": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperandrogenism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperandrogenism > In 2011 the International Association of Athletics Federations (now World Athletics), and IOC released statements restricting the eligibility of female athletes with high testosterone, whether through hyperandrogenism, or as a result of a disorder of sex development (DSD). These people are unambiguously women, both by gender and biological sex, and are excluded from women's sports. </EDIT> > As for being insensitive to call someone a "man", i think you're conflating gender and biological sex. That is basically exactly my point. I understand, at this point, that you are referring to biological sex. However, the word "man" can refer to either, and _usually_ refers to gender. Therefore, using the term with no clarification can easily accidentally mislead people into thinking you intend the opposite interpretation that you do. It's not a big deal, but it's worth avoiding in my opinion.
- Dylan16807 6y ago> So as soon as we have this discussion, we have to admit there is a difference between a transgender woman and a woman. No we don't. If the criteria to compete is "you can have high testosterone or testicles but not both", that's not drawing a line between transgender women and cis women.
- tux1968 6y agoSure, any biological woman can participate. And if everyone is cool with it, weaker biological men can participate too if they're not capable of competing in the male divisions. Maybe we need a third league for non-binary biology, or with divisions by level of proficiency rather than paying any attention to biological sex at all.