7 ms·

> I have never seen somebody cancelled for an opinion similar to "Transgender women have an inherent advantage in women's sports due to the biological advantage

by tux1968 6y ago

> I have never seen somebody cancelled for an opinion similar to "Transgender women have an inherent advantage in women's sports due to the biological advantage of their body producing testosterone." So should a human born as a woman who happens to naturally have higher testosterone than is typical in other women, be excluded from women's sport? Of course not. > "Transgender women should not be in women's sports because they are men." Really? That's offensive? The reason they have higher testosterone is because they are men. That doesn't mean we should stand in their way of living however they want, or demean them in any way. But we should not have to lie about their biological constitution as being the reason we deem it unfair. It's not their level of testosterone that makes it unfair, it's because they come by that level of testosterone by way of being a man... if a woman naturally has the same level of testosterone, it would be fair and she shouldn't be excluded. Maybe the answer is just doing away with all gender based distinctions, have no sports leagues separated on the basis of gender at all. Of course, that has its own problems.

celticninja 6y ago
I guess with that specific statement it would depend on context. In a civil discussion it would be fine, however if you posted it on a trans athletes forum it would be offensive. You have sought out someone who would likely be offended in order to make that statement. As part of a debate etc it is a perfectly fine statement to debate/discuss.
- tux1968 6y ago
  These are thorny issues, and for the record I do want everyone to live a happy and productive life as free from injustice as possible. But from my perspective the accusations of racism, transphobia, and sexism are thrown around way too loosely today, without the attention to context that you recommend. Even when the context is inappropriate and the language is inflammatory, it may just be socially inept rather than hate filled malice.
cmeacham98 6y ago
> Really? That's offensive? Yes, intentionally misgendering a trans person is offensive and transphobic??? > The reason they have higher testosterone is because they are men. This is needlessyly pedantic. My comment doesn't include the detail of _why_ they have increased testortorone because it is obvious. Really, what I meant to express was something like "because their biological sex is male" but writing that is awkward and the most obvious/common interpretation of "because they are men" is transphobic.
- tux1968 6y ago
  > "because their biological sex is male" but writing that is awkward and the most obvious/common interpretation of "because they are men" is transphobic. This is needlessyly pedantic.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    Disagree. "Trans women are men", in a similar vein to using he/his to refer to trans women, is a tactic used by bigots to indicate that they believe trans women are not "real women" and should be universally treated by society as men. When writing my comment I don't want to have to insert several sentences explaining the nuance that I understand and respect the gender of trans women, but that this is one of those rare cases where we might need to treat them as their biological sex, because that is what determines things about their physical body, and their physical body is what matters right now. As such, I intentionally avoid vague phrases commonly used by transphobes today.
    - tux1968 6y ago
      Fair enough, but the reason they are being excluded from women's sport is because they are not seen as truly women. If they were indistinguishable from women, there would be no way to exclude them without excluding all women. So as soon as we have this discussion, we have to admit there is a difference between a transgender woman and a woman. It may be a bit clumsy to refer to them as men, but that is actually the basis of why they are being excluded, because of their "man-ness". That's the underlying reason. I don't think it's transphobic to discuss that openly or to invent an explanation relying on "testosterone".
konjin 6y ago
>So should a human born as a woman who happens to naturally have higher testosterone than is typical in other women, be excluded from women's sport? Of course not. Should women who inject testosterone be banned from sports?
- tux1968 6y ago
  By and large such treatments are seen as cheating. Like Lance Armstrong oxygenating his blood before a race etc. Personally as long as it's a level playing field I'd say people should be allowed to do whatever they want. The only problem is that once you allow it, people who don't want to do it, feel compelled so they can participate. There are arguments for and against.

celticninja 6y ago

I guess with that specific statement it would depend on context. In a civil discussion it would be fine, however if you posted it on a trans athletes forum it would be offensive. You have sought out someone who would likely be offended in order to make that statement. As part of a debate etc it is a perfectly fine statement to debate/discuss.

tux1968 6y ago
These are thorny issues, and for the record I do want everyone to live a happy and productive life as free from injustice as possible. But from my perspective the accusations of racism, transphobia, and sexism are thrown around way too loosely today, without the attention to context that you recommend. Even when the context is inappropriate and the language is inflammatory, it may just be socially inept rather than hate filled malice.

cmeacham98 6y ago

> Really? That's offensive? Yes, intentionally misgendering a trans person is offensive and transphobic??? > The reason they have higher testosterone is because they are men. This is needlessyly pedantic. My comment doesn't include the detail of _why_ they have increased testortorone because it is obvious. Really, what I meant to express was something like "because their biological sex is male" but writing that is awkward and the most obvious/common interpretation of "because they are men" is transphobic.

tux1968 6y ago
> "because their biological sex is male" but writing that is awkward and the most obvious/common interpretation of "because they are men" is transphobic. This is needlessyly pedantic.
- cmeacham98 6y ago
  Disagree. "Trans women are men", in a similar vein to using he/his to refer to trans women, is a tactic used by bigots to indicate that they believe trans women are not "real women" and should be universally treated by society as men. When writing my comment I don't want to have to insert several sentences explaining the nuance that I understand and respect the gender of trans women, but that this is one of those rare cases where we might need to treat them as their biological sex, because that is what determines things about their physical body, and their physical body is what matters right now. As such, I intentionally avoid vague phrases commonly used by transphobes today.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    Fair enough, but the reason they are being excluded from women's sport is because they are not seen as truly women. If they were indistinguishable from women, there would be no way to exclude them without excluding all women. So as soon as we have this discussion, we have to admit there is a difference between a transgender woman and a woman. It may be a bit clumsy to refer to them as men, but that is actually the basis of why they are being excluded, because of their "man-ness". That's the underlying reason. I don't think it's transphobic to discuss that openly or to invent an explanation relying on "testosterone".

konjin 6y ago

>So should a human born as a woman who happens to naturally have higher testosterone than is typical in other women, be excluded from women's sport? Of course not. Should women who inject testosterone be banned from sports?

tux1968 6y ago
By and large such treatments are seen as cheating. Like Lance Armstrong oxygenating his blood before a race etc. Personally as long as it's a level playing field I'd say people should be allowed to do whatever they want. The only problem is that once you allow it, people who don't want to do it, feel compelled so they can participate. There are arguments for and against.