4 ms·

What's wrong with banning a backwards custom that limits women's rights?

XorNot 6y ago
Because the presumption is that the women in question are being forced to do this and don't want to. But your solution is to implement a law which punishes the victim, rather then doing anything about their presumed victimizer. If the women who didn't want to wear the covering didn't want to wear it, what is stopping them from simply not doing it to start with? The answer of course is husband's, brothers, family etc. and probably that they'd be recognized in their community. But this is someone's religion - a fair bit more important to them then the laws of the state in a lot of cases. So you haven't answered how you're going to protect those women from being targeted and forced to simply never leave the house, if they are being targeted by people who are forcing them to do something they don't want to. Your law offers no solution to this - and again - implements itself by targeting the apparent victims it proposes to protect with punishment. Setting aside that the government can stay the hell out of what I choose to wear, this is just a monumentally stupid approach to anything.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  The laws of religion should not override those of the state. To do so would lead to a theocracy and that has been shown to be almost universally bad on any large scale.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    The laws of the state shouldn't go out of their way to get in the way of the laws of religion, doing so for no real reason other than spite. To do so creates conflict where there should be none, which is against the very purpose of a state.
- supergirl 6y ago
  I imagine the women are not physically forced (or maybe only some are) but instead are “educated” from childhood that this is the way. How would you solve it then?
  - techsupporter 6y ago
    Massive public education campaign, as is routinely done for many other topics found objectionable by various religions but acceptable in secular society? From birth control to blood transfusions to interest on loans? At minimum, show the non-religious benefits of doing (or not doing) a thing and why it is relevant for the individual. Don’t punish the victim for doing the thing; if someone must be punished, make it the person imposing the action.
    - supergirl 6y ago
      > Massive public education campaign That's only slightly better than getting a fine. If gov would run a ad campaign / school program with "making women wear burka is bad" then the victims would still be the ones to suffer because it's still directed at the way of life as they know it.
lwkl 6y ago
Let's stop a backwards custom that is practiced by 30 people with a backwards law that limit's clothing choices for seven Million people.
- bitcharmer 6y ago
  I'm friends with a few Muslim women and can assure you that it has nothing to do with choice.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mda 6y ago
    I knew hundreds of muslim woman and many do it by choice. So what now?
IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
i think your point is valid but still shouldn't enter the fray. This is about swiss nationality and customs. Not about women's rights. Just like you don't go to your greek neighbor's dinner party wearing a turkish flag, there are things you don't do when you are the guest at someone else's party. The burka represents a lot of very nasty things, in countries that the overwhelming majority (60%) believe 911 was totally OK and beheading or stoning minorities is OK. The fact is, you don't frown on people because they are spitting on some ideal of freedom. You frown of them because they don't get the basic rules of decency. My house. My rules.
- input_sh 6y ago
  > The burka represents a lot of very nasty things, in countries that the overwhelming majority (60%) believe 911 was totally OK and beheading or stoning minorities is OK. There are countries in Europe that are majority Muslim (Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania) where nobody thinks that, and where any kind of face cover is totally up to the choice. Turkey isn't that extreme either. Neither is Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nigeria, etc etc. Why don't people ever think of those and jump straight to the Middle East? There are just as many Muslims living in India as there are in the Middle East.
Rebelgecko 6y ago
So much for "a woman's right to choose"
coldpotato 6y ago
In what way does it limit women's rights? Have you ever been to the beach? Have you noticed that in many western countries, all the men have bare chests and all the women are covering their breasts? Does this custom limit women's rights? Providing that women have the same legal right as men to go bare chested, as far as I can tell no rights are being infringed. But maybe you disagree, do you think a law banning the wearing of bikinis by women would be a victory for women's rights?
input_sh 6y ago
I don't know, countering an authoritative practice that affects women's choice with another authoritative practice that affects women's choice kinda just seems dumb.
mda 6y ago
Because it is a complex cultural issue and banning it probably harms woman further from an already oppressed state. In some cases basically imprisoning them into their homes or forcing them to relocate. No one bothered asking those woman about their thoughts or circumstances.

Because the presumption is that the women in question are being forced to do this and don't want to. But your solution is to implement a law which punishes the victim, rather then doing anything about their presumed victimizer. If the women who didn't want to wear the covering didn't want to wear it, what is stopping them from simply not doing it to start with? The answer of course is husband's, brothers, family etc. and probably that they'd be recognized in their community. But this is someone's religion - a fair bit more important to them then the laws of the state in a lot of cases. So you haven't answered how you're going to protect those women from being targeted and forced to simply never leave the house, if they are being targeted by people who are forcing them to do something they don't want to. Your law offers no solution to this - and again - implements itself by targeting the apparent victims it proposes to protect with punishment. Setting aside that the government can stay the hell out of what I choose to wear, this is just a monumentally stupid approach to anything.

stjohnswarts 6y ago
The laws of religion should not override those of the state. To do so would lead to a theocracy and that has been shown to be almost universally bad on any large scale.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  The laws of the state shouldn't go out of their way to get in the way of the laws of religion, doing so for no real reason other than spite. To do so creates conflict where there should be none, which is against the very purpose of a state.
supergirl 6y ago
I imagine the women are not physically forced (or maybe only some are) but instead are “educated” from childhood that this is the way. How would you solve it then?
- techsupporter 6y ago
  Massive public education campaign, as is routinely done for many other topics found objectionable by various religions but acceptable in secular society? From birth control to blood transfusions to interest on loans? At minimum, show the non-religious benefits of doing (or not doing) a thing and why it is relevant for the individual. Don’t punish the victim for doing the thing; if someone must be punished, make it the person imposing the action.
  - supergirl 6y ago
    > Massive public education campaign That's only slightly better than getting a fine. If gov would run a ad campaign / school program with "making women wear burka is bad" then the victims would still be the ones to suffer because it's still directed at the way of life as they know it.

lwkl 6y ago

Let's stop a backwards custom that is practiced by 30 people with a backwards law that limit's clothing choices for seven Million people.

bitcharmer 6y ago
I'm friends with a few Muslim women and can assure you that it has nothing to do with choice.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mda 6y ago
  I knew hundreds of muslim woman and many do it by choice. So what now?

IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago

i think your point is valid but still shouldn't enter the fray. This is about swiss nationality and customs. Not about women's rights. Just like you don't go to your greek neighbor's dinner party wearing a turkish flag, there are things you don't do when you are the guest at someone else's party. The burka represents a lot of very nasty things, in countries that the overwhelming majority (60%) believe 911 was totally OK and beheading or stoning minorities is OK. The fact is, you don't frown on people because they are spitting on some ideal of freedom. You frown of them because they don't get the basic rules of decency. My house. My rules.

input_sh 6y ago
> The burka represents a lot of very nasty things, in countries that the overwhelming majority (60%) believe 911 was totally OK and beheading or stoning minorities is OK. There are countries in Europe that are majority Muslim (Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania) where nobody thinks that, and where any kind of face cover is totally up to the choice. Turkey isn't that extreme either. Neither is Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nigeria, etc etc. Why don't people ever think of those and jump straight to the Middle East? There are just as many Muslims living in India as there are in the Middle East.

Rebelgecko 6y ago

So much for "a woman's right to choose"

coldpotato 6y ago

In what way does it limit women's rights? Have you ever been to the beach? Have you noticed that in many western countries, all the men have bare chests and all the women are covering their breasts? Does this custom limit women's rights? Providing that women have the same legal right as men to go bare chested, as far as I can tell no rights are being infringed. But maybe you disagree, do you think a law banning the wearing of bikinis by women would be a victory for women's rights?

input_sh 6y ago

I don't know, countering an authoritative practice that affects women's choice with another authoritative practice that affects women's choice kinda just seems dumb.

mda 6y ago

Because it is a complex cultural issue and banning it probably harms woman further from an already oppressed state. In some cases basically imprisoning them into their homes or forcing them to relocate. No one bothered asking those woman about their thoughts or circumstances.