3 ms·

> It is still at least showing some work beyond the "making claims with zero supporting evidence", which is what you are doing. Really? OP knew exactly what wa

> It is still at least showing some work beyond the "making claims with zero supporting evidence", which is what you are doing. Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. Also the paper doesn't talk about the 'ability of red blood cells to carry oxygen', the attack is first and foremost reported to result in less hemoglobin being available. There is a difference here.

tremon 6y ago
To be fair, the OP mentioned "the ability of the blood to carry oxygen", not blood cells, which would be correct if the overall concentration of hemoglobin was lowered.
- vmception 6y ago
  OP here. This is a great discussion and I'm glad this particular subthread chose not to dismiss it and instead chose to debate the progress of the research into it or lack thereof. Would be even greater to get NIH to invest $1B into looking into it further. 6 months ago people would have retorted slightly differently, although they would have balked at the assertion they would have assumed that people already researched it and ruled it out, and therefore I would have been "fearmongering" because the scientists already researched it! now we can acknowledge that they haven't and needs to be peer reviewed. so the goal post has moved, but I'm all for data being collected.
cthalupa 6y ago
>Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. This is not the only reply from him in the thread going back to the top comment. There are other articles and papers posted, in response to his reply or backing the assertions of the original post he replied to, here and throughout the rest of the rest of the comment section. In none of his posts did he provide any response to them beyond his appeals to authority. I had no desire to reply to multiple posts with the same general concern and instead picked a single one. The top post should have included sources for their assertion. They did not. Others stepped in for them and did in the thread. Other threads include articles and sources for the same assertions. At that point, the burden of proof isn't on them - someone saying they're wrong needs to provide details on why that is not the case vs. just saying "I got a PhD in this so trust me." It's a classic appeal to authority fallacy.
- timr 6y ago
  I'm not saying "you should believe me because I have a PhD". That would be an appeal to authority. I'm saying: I have deep expertise in this exact area, and based on my experience and knowledge and ability to read papers in this area, I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made. You have no skill or experience in this area, and you choose to believe the paper instead of my assessment of the paper. That is certainly your right, but your basis for doing so is "it's a paper and I don't know who you are", which is self-evidently silly.
  - cthalupa 6y ago
    >I'm not saying "you should believe me because I have a PhD". Yes, you fundamentally are. >I have deep expertise in this exact area, and based on my experience and knowledge and ability to read papers in this area, I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made. There is no functional difference between the here because you don't even provide an argument as to why this is. What is the real difference between "I have deep expertise in this area and knowledge and experience" and "I have a PhD"? Is a PhD not a proxy for expertise, knowledge, and experience in a subject? What is the difference between "believe me" and "I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made"? Are you not asking me to believe your conclusion based entirely on your authority? You have made no argument for me to evaluate. One form is more verbose, but it is still 100% an appeal to authority. It is one thing to state your credentials and then make an argument. It is another to state your credentials and a conclusion with no argument.
    - trevelyan 6y ago
      The NIH has also addressed this topic as well. "We speculated that in COVID-19, beyond the classical pulmonary immune-inflammation view, the occurrence of an oxygen-deprived blood disease, with iron metabolism dysregulation, should be taken in consideration. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7267810/#:~:text=COVID-19%20combines%20the%20so,hypoxia%20(low%20hemoglobin%20saturation).&text=Oxygen%20deprivation%20and%20iron%20accumulation,regardless%20of%20the%20incurring%20pneumonia https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7267810/#:~:tex.... The guy complaining here is simply wrong. He's backpedalling because he made an unscientific and unsupported statement that oxygen deprivation is caused only by inflammation. There is plenty of evidence of other mechanisms at play. Nitpicking them is fine, pretending they don't exist is foolish, which is what he is getting called out on.

tremon 6y ago

To be fair, the OP mentioned "the ability of the blood to carry oxygen", not blood cells, which would be correct if the overall concentration of hemoglobin was lowered.

vmception 6y ago
OP here. This is a great discussion and I'm glad this particular subthread chose not to dismiss it and instead chose to debate the progress of the research into it or lack thereof. Would be even greater to get NIH to invest $1B into looking into it further. 6 months ago people would have retorted slightly differently, although they would have balked at the assertion they would have assumed that people already researched it and ruled it out, and therefore I would have been "fearmongering" because the scientists already researched it! now we can acknowledge that they haven't and needs to be peer reviewed. so the goal post has moved, but I'm all for data being collected.

cthalupa 6y ago

>Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. This is not the only reply from him in the thread going back to the top comment. There are other articles and papers posted, in response to his reply or backing the assertions of the original post he replied to, here and throughout the rest of the rest of the comment section. In none of his posts did he provide any response to them beyond his appeals to authority. I had no desire to reply to multiple posts with the same general concern and instead picked a single one. The top post should have included sources for their assertion. They did not. Others stepped in for them and did in the thread. Other threads include articles and sources for the same assertions. At that point, the burden of proof isn't on them - someone saying they're wrong needs to provide details on why that is not the case vs. just saying "I got a PhD in this so trust me." It's a classic appeal to authority fallacy.

timr 6y ago
I'm not saying "you should believe me because I have a PhD". That would be an appeal to authority. I'm saying: I have deep expertise in this exact area, and based on my experience and knowledge and ability to read papers in this area, I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made. You have no skill or experience in this area, and you choose to believe the paper instead of my assessment of the paper. That is certainly your right, but your basis for doing so is "it's a paper and I don't know who you are", which is self-evidently silly.
- cthalupa 6y ago
  >I'm not saying "you should believe me because I have a PhD". Yes, you fundamentally are. >I have deep expertise in this exact area, and based on my experience and knowledge and ability to read papers in this area, I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made. There is no functional difference between the here because you don't even provide an argument as to why this is. What is the real difference between "I have deep expertise in this area and knowledge and experience" and "I have a PhD"? Is a PhD not a proxy for expertise, knowledge, and experience in a subject? What is the difference between "believe me" and "I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made"? Are you not asking me to believe your conclusion based entirely on your authority? You have made no argument for me to evaluate. One form is more verbose, but it is still 100% an appeal to authority. It is one thing to state your credentials and then make an argument. It is another to state your credentials and a conclusion with no argument.
  - trevelyan 6y ago
    The NIH has also addressed this topic as well. "We speculated that in COVID-19, beyond the classical pulmonary immune-inflammation view, the occurrence of an oxygen-deprived blood disease, with iron metabolism dysregulation, should be taken in consideration. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7267810/#:~:text=COVID-19%20combines%20the%20so,hypoxia%20(low%20hemoglobin%20saturation).&text=Oxygen%20deprivation%20and%20iron%20accumulation,regardless%20of%20the%20incurring%20pneumonia https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7267810/#:~:tex.... The guy complaining here is simply wrong. He's backpedalling because he made an unscientific and unsupported statement that oxygen deprivation is caused only by inflammation. There is plenty of evidence of other mechanisms at play. Nitpicking them is fine, pretending they don't exist is foolish, which is what he is getting called out on.