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Very interesting except they only really trained the AI for "gunboat Diplomacy" where you are not allowed to communicate with your fellow players. Any serious

Very interesting except they only really trained the AI for "gunboat Diplomacy" where you are not allowed to communicate with your fellow players. Any serious Diplomacy player knows that the moves on the board, coming once a day or once a week, are far less important than the interpersonal relationships and written communication that actually creates the game. Convincingly beating humans at Diplomacy would also involve passing the Turing test.

isidor3 6y ago
I've never played Diplomacy, only read about it. But, I feel like you don't have to convince your opponents that you're human to win. The players could know that their opponent is a bot and still attempt to strategize with it, game the A.I. to get it onto their side, etc. I suppose everyone might gang up on the A.I. immediately, but I don't think it's necessarily a forgone conclusion that they do.
- spullara 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure all the human drivers are going to gang up on the AI driver at a four way stop.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - xyzzy123 6y ago
    There's a point where the AI drivers outnumber the humans, have perfect inter-vehicle co-ordination and live forever.
    - alasdair_ 6y ago
      This is the leaked plot of the next Terminator movie.
      - codetrotter 6y ago
        Three billon human lives ended on August 29th, 1997. The Survivors of the nuclear fire called the war Judgement Day. They lived only to face a new nightmare: the war against the machines. https://youtu.be/_Mg7qKstnPk https://youtu.be/_Mg7qKstnPk Meeeeeep, ding, meep, ding, meep ding meep ding ding ding. The war against the machines. Wuu- wub wub wub, wub wub wub wub. Wuu- wub wub wub, wub wub wub wub. https://youtu.be/yePgFSls1x4 https://youtu.be/yePgFSls1x4 https://open.spotify.com/track/7zcVFsEFDUawXS6ZPnqQHF https://open.spotify.com/track/7zcVFsEFDUawXS6ZPnqQHF https://music.apple.com/no/album/against-the-machines-original-mix/309286336?i=309286413 https://music.apple.com/no/album/against-the-machines-origin...
  - baking 6y ago
    And will it go for a 3-way draw or try for a solo win? What about keeping a puppet ally alive to disrupt a draw? (And why did I think the parent comment was about 4-way draws?)
- CGamesPlay 6y ago
  The meta is very important in Diplomacy. If the AI always wins when it gets down to 1 human vs 1 AI, then humans will conspire to prevent that situation from arising. If the human-AI team always wins, humans will conspire to prevent other humans from working with the AI. In the end, I think the reason "an AI" can't be a perfect Diplomacy player is because no one entity can be a perfect player. Once it's known that that entity is "too good" at situation X, the other players will prevent it from getting into situation X.
neltnerb 6y ago
I have played (and won even!) Diplomacy and I agree about what makes the game fun. But it is interesting that they argue these AI are able to infer people's alliances and reliability based on their actual in-game behavior by modeling how they would act in that scenario and training against that. That's pretty neat, there must be a lot more information encoded in who you choose to support than I'd have thought. It makes me wonder whether the AI would do better or worse than the human attempting to manipulate it. I have this feeling that we will be shocked to discover that the human's inevitable betrayal was inferred based on behavioral changes that fit the betrayal scenario the best. It's not especially hard to imagine even with communication in a fairly reliable way (no misunderstandings from NLP) that an AI might easily learn to guess when a human was acting in a way that didn't... quite... match the behavior of an actual ally. But it would sure help =)
onorton 6y ago
> where you are not allowed to communicate with your fellow players Technically there is no textual communication. You could still communicate with players via signalling e.g. Choosing support commands for that player in places that are physically unreachable to you. Agents may learn to do that if players interpret them in the same way
1123581321 6y ago
I’d love to see an AI learn to add all the right historical rhetorical flair to their emails for the country it is currently playing. :) (Humans can’t help but sign off as “The Czar” when playing Russia in 1901, for example.) Surely there must be bodies of dip communications and write-ups available from forums like Apolyton, if nothing else.

isidor3 6y ago

I've never played Diplomacy, only read about it. But, I feel like you don't have to convince your opponents that you're human to win. The players could know that their opponent is a bot and still attempt to strategize with it, game the A.I. to get it onto their side, etc. I suppose everyone might gang up on the A.I. immediately, but I don't think it's necessarily a forgone conclusion that they do.

spullara 6y ago
I'm pretty sure all the human drivers are going to gang up on the AI driver at a four way stop.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- xyzzy123 6y ago
  There's a point where the AI drivers outnumber the humans, have perfect inter-vehicle co-ordination and live forever.
  - alasdair_ 6y ago
    This is the leaked plot of the next Terminator movie.
    - codetrotter 6y ago
      Three billon human lives ended on August 29th, 1997. The Survivors of the nuclear fire called the war Judgement Day. They lived only to face a new nightmare: the war against the machines. https://youtu.be/_Mg7qKstnPk https://youtu.be/_Mg7qKstnPk Meeeeeep, ding, meep, ding, meep ding meep ding ding ding. The war against the machines. Wuu- wub wub wub, wub wub wub wub. Wuu- wub wub wub, wub wub wub wub. https://youtu.be/yePgFSls1x4 https://youtu.be/yePgFSls1x4 https://open.spotify.com/track/7zcVFsEFDUawXS6ZPnqQHF https://open.spotify.com/track/7zcVFsEFDUawXS6ZPnqQHF https://music.apple.com/no/album/against-the-machines-original-mix/309286336?i=309286413 https://music.apple.com/no/album/against-the-machines-origin...
- baking 6y ago
  And will it go for a 3-way draw or try for a solo win? What about keeping a puppet ally alive to disrupt a draw? (And why did I think the parent comment was about 4-way draws?)
CGamesPlay 6y ago
The meta is very important in Diplomacy. If the AI always wins when it gets down to 1 human vs 1 AI, then humans will conspire to prevent that situation from arising. If the human-AI team always wins, humans will conspire to prevent other humans from working with the AI. In the end, I think the reason "an AI" can't be a perfect Diplomacy player is because no one entity can be a perfect player. Once it's known that that entity is "too good" at situation X, the other players will prevent it from getting into situation X.

neltnerb 6y ago

I have played (and won even!) Diplomacy and I agree about what makes the game fun. But it is interesting that they argue these AI are able to infer people's alliances and reliability based on their actual in-game behavior by modeling how they would act in that scenario and training against that. That's pretty neat, there must be a lot more information encoded in who you choose to support than I'd have thought. It makes me wonder whether the AI would do better or worse than the human attempting to manipulate it. I have this feeling that we will be shocked to discover that the human's inevitable betrayal was inferred based on behavioral changes that fit the betrayal scenario the best. It's not especially hard to imagine even with communication in a fairly reliable way (no misunderstandings from NLP) that an AI might easily learn to guess when a human was acting in a way that didn't... quite... match the behavior of an actual ally. But it would sure help =)

onorton 6y ago

> where you are not allowed to communicate with your fellow players Technically there is no textual communication. You could still communicate with players via signalling e.g. Choosing support commands for that player in places that are physically unreachable to you. Agents may learn to do that if players interpret them in the same way

1123581321 6y ago

I’d love to see an AI learn to add all the right historical rhetorical flair to their emails for the country it is currently playing. :) (Humans can’t help but sign off as “The Czar” when playing Russia in 1901, for example.) Surely there must be bodies of dip communications and write-ups available from forums like Apolyton, if nothing else.