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I've been wondering what would happen if the same political correctness ever came to Spanish. Every noun is gendered, usually according to whether it is associa
by robmiller 6y ago
I've been wondering what would happen if the same political correctness ever came to Spanish. Every noun is gendered, usually according to whether it is associated with males or female roles.
- vxNsr 6y agoLatinx. As “colonist” as that term is it’s been adopted by almost all progressives, and not many actual Latinos. I hear it on NPR all the time
- pseudalopex 6y agoLatinx came from LGBT Hispanic people originally. Latine seems to be more popular than Latinx outside North America.
- cwkoss 6y ago"About One-in-Four U.S. Hispanics Have Heard of Latinx, but Just 3% Use It" (as of Aug 2020): https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... The term doesn't even have a broadly accepted spanish pronunciation yet! I think the term exemplifies the issues that occur when (especially white) "diversity professionals" are given institutional power to speak on behalf of racial groups they are not a part of. I'm happy to refer to individuals who identify as latinx as such, but I think it is wildly presumptive and slightly offensive to assume this form should be preferred in general when the Latino community has not yet accepted it. Something about the academic/professional class in America defining the term for a diverse group of people spread over multiple continents rubs me as off-putting and ironically colonialist. (But I'm a white dude, so my opinion doesn't even matter and we should all happily use whatever term becomes accepted by the Latino community) Latine seems to be gaining some steam as well, and makes a lot more sense: -e is the gender neutral suffix in spanish. However, it is still not broadly accepted (as can be seen in this comment section) https://remezcla.com/culture/latinx-latine-comic/ https://remezcla.com/culture/latinx-latine-comic/
- azinman2 6y agoI guess what I don't understand is why 'Latin' isn't preferred when speaking in English.
- krrrh 6y agoOr the already widely adopted Hispanic.
- pseudalopex 6y agoHispanic means Spanish speaking. Spain is Hispanic but not Latin. Brazil is Latin but not Hispanic.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoThe question is, preferred by whom? Most Hispanic people use "Hispanic", and almost all of the remainder use "Latino". The other terms are fashion statements to show that the speaker keeps up with new intellectual trends, so they lose preference whenever they become too well known; you can date groups like fossil records by seeing whether their name uses "Latinx", "Latina/o", "Latin@", or "Latin".
- refenestrator 6y agoLatin would be ungendered, but it's been said for years by all sorts of people so it doesn't serve the cultural signalling purposes to show that you're enlightened. Gotta use that x to demonstrate your tribal allegiance.
- joshuamorton 6y agoLatin also doesn't imply "of south or central America" in the way latino/latina/latinx/latiné (which is the other approach that's gender neutral and easier to pronounce that I've seen) do. Latin implies, at least to me central European, old and vaguely Italian, as opposed to Latino. You could also use "Latin American", which may also work, but historically Latino/a have been preferred, possibly since "Latino" is a lot easier to say than "Latinoamericano".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- remarkEon 6y agoHonest question: how would you pronounce "Latinx" in Spanish? Aren't we grafting what's, at its roots, a germanic construction onto a latin-based word? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
- pseudalopex 6y agoIt rhymes with Kleenex. It started among LGBT Hispanic people. Probably influenced by folx. Latine seems to be more popular outside North America. Probably it will replace Latinx eventually.
- remarkEon 6y ago>It rhymes with Kleenex In Spanish? I’m having a hard time imagining how a word in Spanish would sound with an “X” at the end. “Latine” seems easily pronounceable but I’m not sure what the point of adding the “e” is. It’s not like that vowel signals gender neutrality in any consistent manner in Romance languages.
- pseudalopex 6y agoLatinx is pronounced the same in English and Spanish. It being unusual for Spanish is why Latine is more popular in countries with less English influence. Nothing signals gender neutrality. That's why people made something up. e is a simple replacement for a and o and sounds more natural than i or u.
- Uberphallus 6y agoSpanish speaker here. X after N is basically non existing in Spanish. Most people who don't speak other languages will struggle pronouncing that. Spanish speaking woke-alikes use "e" or "@", or unnecessarily repeat the words in both genders. Also in Latin(American) includes Portuguese and French speakers. Limit it to Spanish language/culture/heritage would be Hispanicx, which is also nonsensical, especially because I just made it up. But I'm just a person who speaks Spanish, French and Portuguese, so take my word with a grain of salt.
- InvaderFizz 6y agoColonist is exactly how my Mexican born and raised wife feels about Latinx. She finds the term highly offensive. As far as she is concerned, Latinx is just another instance of white colonizers trying to impose their will on the indigenous population.
- pseudalopex 6y agoLGBT Hispanic people started Latinx. Is there a gender neutral term your wife likes?
- malandrew 6y ago> LGBT Hispanic people started Latinx. A few Hispanic that were also LGBT started Latinx. LGBT Hispanic are not some hivemind borg and when people state "LGBT Hispanic people did X" it eliminates the agency of all the individuals who are both LGBT and Hispanic.
- pseudalopex 6y agoX people did Y just means the people who did Y were X. American astronauts walked on the moon.
- rayiner 6y agoWay more Latino Democrats watch Fox News than listen to NPR: https://images.app.goo.gl/kpSgBJpsvVGTqPNC6 https://images.app.goo.gl/kpSgBJpsvVGTqPNC6. I suspect the third of Latinos who voted for Trump listen to NPR at even lower rates.
- vxNsr 6y agoSo what? Not sure why that’s relevant?
- rayiner 6y agoThe point is that typical Latino people aren’t in the NYT’s and NPR’s target audience. That’s why those outlets use terms like “Latinx” that polling shows are unfamiliar to most Latinos. (I’m using the example of Fox News just as the banana for scale, so to speak. If you have a preconceived view that people of color who watch Fox News are relatively rare, ones who read the New York Times are rarer still by a large margin: https://images.app.goo.gl/vgyXCnAoS8TdPYU3A https://images.app.goo.gl/vgyXCnAoS8TdPYU3A)
- pseudalopex 6y agoSome words' genders come from male or female associations. Most are arbitrary though. Some people use e for a gender neutral ending. Elles instead ellos or ellas for example.
- fork1 6y agoThere is such a push in French, works fine with some words, much less with others. A much more ridiculous one is to change the word endings to reflect gender neutrality. You're supposed to write both endings separated with dots. "Chers lecteurs", a group plural, so like in all latin languages you default to neutral (ie masculine), becomes "Cher·e·s lecteur·rice·s". It makes text nearly unreadable. Spanish equivalent would be : "Querid·o·a·s lector·e·a·s"
- pseudalopex 6y agoQuerides lectores would be an option for Spanish.
- fork1 6y agoLectores is still a masculine. And it doesn't work for "Lectores!".
- pseudalopex 6y agoPeople who advocate that convention don't seem to mind some of the gender neutral plurals are the same as the masculine plurals.
- medium_burrito 6y agoAs my wife would say, her country's Academy* in her will slap that shit down and machete the offenders in the street *Spanish Academy, royal or otherwise.
- endominus 6y agoI had the opportunity to ask a very social-justice-minded friend of mine how custom pronouns and genders could possibly work in Arabic, which has many deeply integrated rules on gender modification of words. Adjectives, verbs, and pronouns all change depending on the gender of the object. Her response was that the language must be changed to suit the preferences of people with nonstandard genders. It really feels sometimes that this is a sort of soft English imperialism, forcing other languages to the margins by making their use "impolite" to the global audience.