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And you’d be surprised at the number of people who (validly) don’t like this but won’t speak up about it. I know women in tech who tell me this exact behavior f

And you’d be surprised at the number of people who (validly) don’t like this but won’t speak up about it. I know women in tech who tell me this exact behavior feels constantly degrading and makes them want to leave tech. There are alternatives in English other than y’all, such as “team” or “everyone” or “all”.

refenestrator 6y ago
This isn't a tech thing, it's an english language thing. Are women in finance degraded by this extremely common linguistic quirk? Women in medicine?
- azinman2 6y ago
  I’m sure they are as well, especially if they’re in a heavily male dominated field. I can only speak of tech and what I’ve personally learned about.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - azinman2 6y ago
    I find it hilarious (and sad) that I'm being downvoted because women have told me that they don't like being referred to as a guy when they're not one, and its one of the many ways that the 'default male' attributes of tech take a toll on them.
    - manfredo 6y ago
      Plenty of women have told me they don't think "guys" is gendered at all. Most (all?) of the women in my office use it irrespective of gender. Maybe it's because you're asserting your anecdotal experience as truth, when it's not at all representative of most other people's experience.
      - azinman2 6y ago
        I never said all (or even most!) women feel this way, I said 'you'd be surprised at the number'.
      - caddemon 6y ago
        Another personal anecdote, but not only do I consider "guys" gender neutral, but I found it kind of alienating when a few people clearly stopped saying "guys" shortly after I joined the team. I was the only woman on the team that summer (internship), and I think they were just trying to be nice, but I don't like when attention is called to gender in the workplace. The more (actively) aware I am of being "different", the more it impacts interactions.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I don't doubt that some people think the way you're describing, but it just seems to me that complaining about gender-inclusive "guys" is the exact mirror of complaining about AAVE. It's extraordinarily exclusive to say that you can't be comfortable unless everyone talks the same way you do.
      - azinman2 6y ago
        Not at all -- you're using a very specific word to refer to someone that they could consider inaccurate. If in AAVL there's some word that would refer to me as a woman or straight or a diff identity than I have, I wouldn't like that very much.
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        The problem is that "you guys" simply does not contain an assumption of anyone's identity in my dialect. Both women and men in my circles use it freely regardless of the group's gender balance. So when I hear someone say that "you guys" doesn't respect their identity, it sounds to me like saying "y'all" or "everyone" doesn't respect their identity - it's hard to wrap my mind around what such a claim could mean.
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        What does guys and gals mean in your dialect? It's hard for you to wrap your mind around people telling you guys is gendered in their dialect?
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        I don't know that I've ever heard someone say "guys and gals" outside of TV. It's easy for me to understand that some people use "guys" in a gendered way, but I don't see what that has to do with people like me who don't. The argument seems to be that their dialect is "normal" and everyone else has to learn to speak like them, which sounds terribly exclusionary.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- robmiller 6y ago
  I've been wondering what would happen if the same political correctness ever came to Spanish. Every noun is gendered, usually according to whether it is associated with males or female roles.
  - vxNsr 6y ago
    Latinx. As “colonist” as that term is it’s been adopted by almost all progressives, and not many actual Latinos. I hear it on NPR all the time
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      Latinx came from LGBT Hispanic people originally. Latine seems to be more popular than Latinx outside North America.
    - cwkoss 6y ago
      "About One-in-Four U.S. Hispanics Have Heard of Latinx, but Just 3% Use It" (as of Aug 2020): https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... The term doesn't even have a broadly accepted spanish pronunciation yet! I think the term exemplifies the issues that occur when (especially white) "diversity professionals" are given institutional power to speak on behalf of racial groups they are not a part of. I'm happy to refer to individuals who identify as latinx as such, but I think it is wildly presumptive and slightly offensive to assume this form should be preferred in general when the Latino community has not yet accepted it. Something about the academic/professional class in America defining the term for a diverse group of people spread over multiple continents rubs me as off-putting and ironically colonialist. (But I'm a white dude, so my opinion doesn't even matter and we should all happily use whatever term becomes accepted by the Latino community) Latine seems to be gaining some steam as well, and makes a lot more sense: -e is the gender neutral suffix in spanish. However, it is still not broadly accepted (as can be seen in this comment section) https://remezcla.com/culture/latinx-latine-comic/ https://remezcla.com/culture/latinx-latine-comic/
      - 6y ago
- katbyte 6y ago
  yes.
selectiveshift 6y ago
Can you expand on why y’all makes them feel degraded? Y’all is often used to convey a feeling of warmth towards the addressee or express familiarity, which seems the opposite of degrading.
- azinman2 6y ago
  I'm not saying y'all does, I'm saying 'hey guys' does when they're, in fact, not a guy. Or a least for some. I also know women who aren't offended by it and we've had explicit discussions surrounding it. But being more thoughtful doesn't seem to hurt anyone when there are more inclusive terms you can use. I can tell you as a gay man I appreciate when people ask about my partner (gender neutral) versus default to wife. Am I offended by it? Not really, it's right 90% of the time. But it's nice that people are considerate of other options when they don't know themselves. And you don't know that I'm gay by looking at me. Many women you do know they're not a man, so you would already know that you're using the male pronoun as default for all people when you could be more contextual to the situation (and avoid pulling the entire history of male-dominated societies and language with it).
  - selectiveshift 6y ago
    Apologies, I thought your response was a reply to a different comment.
  - da_big_ghey 6y ago
    "Partner" is a mostly term used with gays. straights many feel strange to apply this term to husband, also wife. Can someone not simply ask about "spouse"? There previously exists term without gender for such persons.
    - cwkoss 6y ago
      "Spouse" implies marriage. "Significant Other" is a common safe bet, but is a bit too much of a mouthful IMO. I've seen "partner" being used in reference to hetero relationships more frequently in the last decade, and think that's probably a good development. "Boyfriend" and "Girlfriend" sounds a bit infantilizing to me when used in reference to adults.
undefined1 6y ago
leave tech because of a gender neutral saying and no ill intent whatsoever? that's ridiculous, honestly. it's just an example of how people can always find a reason to play the victim. you don't have to play along and reinforce victim mentality.
- azinman2 6y ago
  Guys isn't the most gender neutral term when you're not a guy.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    But "guys" is not the plural of "guy" in many regional dialects of US English. It is specifically gender neutral, and used by women to speak to a group of women -- e.g. a girls' soccer coach saying to her team, "Let's go guys!"
pochamago 6y ago
I don't feel like I've ever satisfactorily understood why it feeling degrading to them is of greater weight than the degrading feeling of being told that your natural pattern of speech is forbidden.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

refenestrator 6y ago

This isn't a tech thing, it's an english language thing. Are women in finance degraded by this extremely common linguistic quirk? Women in medicine?

azinman2 6y ago
I’m sure they are as well, especially if they’re in a heavily male dominated field. I can only speak of tech and what I’ve personally learned about.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- azinman2 6y ago
  I find it hilarious (and sad) that I'm being downvoted because women have told me that they don't like being referred to as a guy when they're not one, and its one of the many ways that the 'default male' attributes of tech take a toll on them.
  - manfredo 6y ago
    Plenty of women have told me they don't think "guys" is gendered at all. Most (all?) of the women in my office use it irrespective of gender. Maybe it's because you're asserting your anecdotal experience as truth, when it's not at all representative of most other people's experience.
    - azinman2 6y ago
      I never said all (or even most!) women feel this way, I said 'you'd be surprised at the number'.
    - caddemon 6y ago
      Another personal anecdote, but not only do I consider "guys" gender neutral, but I found it kind of alienating when a few people clearly stopped saying "guys" shortly after I joined the team. I was the only woman on the team that summer (internship), and I think they were just trying to be nice, but I don't like when attention is called to gender in the workplace. The more (actively) aware I am of being "different", the more it impacts interactions.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I don't doubt that some people think the way you're describing, but it just seems to me that complaining about gender-inclusive "guys" is the exact mirror of complaining about AAVE. It's extraordinarily exclusive to say that you can't be comfortable unless everyone talks the same way you do.
    - azinman2 6y ago
      Not at all -- you're using a very specific word to refer to someone that they could consider inaccurate. If in AAVL there's some word that would refer to me as a woman or straight or a diff identity than I have, I wouldn't like that very much.
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        The problem is that "you guys" simply does not contain an assumption of anyone's identity in my dialect. Both women and men in my circles use it freely regardless of the group's gender balance. So when I hear someone say that "you guys" doesn't respect their identity, it sounds to me like saying "y'all" or "everyone" doesn't respect their identity - it's hard to wrap my mind around what such a claim could mean.
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        What does guys and gals mean in your dialect? It's hard for you to wrap your mind around people telling you guys is gendered in their dialect?
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        I don't know that I've ever heard someone say "guys and gals" outside of TV. It's easy for me to understand that some people use "guys" in a gendered way, but I don't see what that has to do with people like me who don't. The argument seems to be that their dialect is "normal" and everyone else has to learn to speak like them, which sounds terribly exclusionary.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
robmiller 6y ago
I've been wondering what would happen if the same political correctness ever came to Spanish. Every noun is gendered, usually according to whether it is associated with males or female roles.
- vxNsr 6y ago
  Latinx. As “colonist” as that term is it’s been adopted by almost all progressives, and not many actual Latinos. I hear it on NPR all the time
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Latinx came from LGBT Hispanic people originally. Latine seems to be more popular than Latinx outside North America.
  - cwkoss 6y ago
    "About One-in-Four U.S. Hispanics Have Heard of Latinx, but Just 3% Use It" (as of Aug 2020): https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in... The term doesn't even have a broadly accepted spanish pronunciation yet! I think the term exemplifies the issues that occur when (especially white) "diversity professionals" are given institutional power to speak on behalf of racial groups they are not a part of. I'm happy to refer to individuals who identify as latinx as such, but I think it is wildly presumptive and slightly offensive to assume this form should be preferred in general when the Latino community has not yet accepted it. Something about the academic/professional class in America defining the term for a diverse group of people spread over multiple continents rubs me as off-putting and ironically colonialist. (But I'm a white dude, so my opinion doesn't even matter and we should all happily use whatever term becomes accepted by the Latino community) Latine seems to be gaining some steam as well, and makes a lot more sense: -e is the gender neutral suffix in spanish. However, it is still not broadly accepted (as can be seen in this comment section) https://remezcla.com/culture/latinx-latine-comic/ https://remezcla.com/culture/latinx-latine-comic/
    - 6y ago
katbyte 6y ago
yes.

selectiveshift 6y ago

Can you expand on why y’all makes them feel degraded? Y’all is often used to convey a feeling of warmth towards the addressee or express familiarity, which seems the opposite of degrading.

azinman2 6y ago
I'm not saying y'all does, I'm saying 'hey guys' does when they're, in fact, not a guy. Or a least for some. I also know women who aren't offended by it and we've had explicit discussions surrounding it. But being more thoughtful doesn't seem to hurt anyone when there are more inclusive terms you can use. I can tell you as a gay man I appreciate when people ask about my partner (gender neutral) versus default to wife. Am I offended by it? Not really, it's right 90% of the time. But it's nice that people are considerate of other options when they don't know themselves. And you don't know that I'm gay by looking at me. Many women you do know they're not a man, so you would already know that you're using the male pronoun as default for all people when you could be more contextual to the situation (and avoid pulling the entire history of male-dominated societies and language with it).
- selectiveshift 6y ago
  Apologies, I thought your response was a reply to a different comment.
- da_big_ghey 6y ago
  "Partner" is a mostly term used with gays. straights many feel strange to apply this term to husband, also wife. Can someone not simply ask about "spouse"? There previously exists term without gender for such persons.
  - cwkoss 6y ago
    "Spouse" implies marriage. "Significant Other" is a common safe bet, but is a bit too much of a mouthful IMO. I've seen "partner" being used in reference to hetero relationships more frequently in the last decade, and think that's probably a good development. "Boyfriend" and "Girlfriend" sounds a bit infantilizing to me when used in reference to adults.

undefined1 6y ago

leave tech because of a gender neutral saying and no ill intent whatsoever? that's ridiculous, honestly. it's just an example of how people can always find a reason to play the victim. you don't have to play along and reinforce victim mentality.

azinman2 6y ago
Guys isn't the most gender neutral term when you're not a guy.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  But "guys" is not the plural of "guy" in many regional dialects of US English. It is specifically gender neutral, and used by women to speak to a group of women -- e.g. a girls' soccer coach saying to her team, "Let's go guys!"

pochamago 6y ago

I don't feel like I've ever satisfactorily understood why it feeling degrading to them is of greater weight than the degrading feeling of being told that your natural pattern of speech is forbidden.

deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago

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