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I did not want to have kids. Then one day I realized that for the past 3 billion years my ancestors had been passing the torch. I was not going to be the one

I did not want to have kids. Then one day I realized that for the past 3 billion years my ancestors had been passing the torch. I was not going to be the one to let down the team. I felt a duty to give my genes a chance to fight it out in darwin's cage match. I can not guarantee my genes will win, but if I fail to reproduce I guarantee they will lose. Looking back, I am not sure this justification makes any sense, but it was how I thought at the time. In any case it's moot now because it turns out kids are great fun to have around and generally make life better. Except the car seats, car seats are a pain in the ass.

rimiform 6y ago
Kids might make your life better, but they probably would have been better off had you stuck to your plan of not having them.
- conductr 6y ago
  Not existing is better than existing? Suicide rates should be 99% then right, because if you’re not a 1%er it’s not worth living. That said, I do fear my kid will live to see something we’ve made apocalyptic movies about. Hell, we all might.
  - tenacious_tuna 6y ago
    I think you're making a leap in OP's reasoning: they didn't say that for _currently existing_ people it's better to not be existing. I suspect the point is more that it will be better for future generations to limit the _size of_ future generations, lest we increase the amount of strain on the climate/energy production/water scarcity/etc. I also think OPs reasoning has more to do with the considerations of inflicting the potentially post-apocalyptic future on those future generations: there is an arguable moral duty to ensure that whatever offspring you have will have a (generally) good life, and that if you aren't reasonably sure of that it's A Bad Thing to have said offspring.
    - conductr 6y ago
      > they didn't say that for _currently existing_ people it's better to not be existing He said the guys kids would be better off if he didn’t have them. And basically said he had them for selfish reasons (kids make your life better) Seems like you’re the one making leaps, I read what was written
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    There’s a big difference between never existing, and existing but then dying.
  - nescioquid 6y ago
    It is antinatalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism), and an idea to which I'm not unsympathetic. Basically, life is suffering, and from the view of reducing the amount of suffering in the world, it is a good to abstain from bringing more beings into this world to suffer.
- 2lwxxtj 6y ago
  I get the impression that you are not very happy in life.
- samr71 6y ago
  Such doom and gloom! You really believe the future is gonna be so bad that children would be better off not existing at all? The world has huge issues, sure, but it's still far better to be alive now than any time in human history. The only way the future could be worse is if this idea becomes mainstream and the prophecy self-fulfilling.
  - tenacious_tuna 6y ago
    I think this is a rather short-sighted view; The future is not guaranteed to be better, especially not when we have lots of evidence of impending (1) massive climate disruption (2) water shortage (3) political polarization (4) economic imbalance, the list goes on. Saying "the only way" the world gets worse is if we don't have children is to ignore the potential for all of those effects to grow worse. It's certainly possible that we may overcome them and human life will continue on its merry way, but it's very unreasonable to ignore all these difficulties and the psychological effects they can have on new parents.... And on new children. What would your response be to a 9 year old having an existential crisis about the polar bears starving to death because of climate change, and the implications for human civilization, and civilization's apparent apathy towards that? "Don't worry kid, just make sure you have children of your own and everything will work out"?
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      > What would your response be to a 9 year old having an existential crisis about the polar bears starving to death because of climate change, and the implications for human civilization, and civilization's apparent apathy towards that? "Don't worry kid, just make sure you have children of your own and everything will work out"? Speaking as a new parent who did in fact have an existential crisis about this as a child, very very disappointed in both myself and the rest of us.
    - samr71 6y ago
      All of the things you listed are solvable problems, with hundreds of thousands of people working tirelessly to solve them. Fear porn about the impending collapse of everything helps no one, and is the reason why that the 9 year old is having an existential crisis about polar bears at all. Should we worry about these things? Absolutely! But the incessant hysteria is counter productive. Us ceasing having children in a form of civilizational suicide is not a solution.
globular-toast 6y ago
Your ancestors were just fucking without contraception. They weren't trying to "pass on the torch" or anything silly like that.
- calebm 6y ago
  Maybe not consciously, but what about subconsciously?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Historical creation myths seem to say otherwise. E.g. those referring to seed, or fruit of the loins, or commandments to multiply.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    Even if we are to believe that humans need to be commanded to reproduce, you're talking about the last few thousand years, not 3 billion.
tenacious_tuna 6y ago
I'm always suspicious of anecdotes that go "I never wanted to do [thing], and then I had a thought that changed my perspective on [thing] though it's not really logical up front, and then [thing] happened and now I love [thing]." I always suspect it's the psycological immune system [1] kicking in to alter your own perceptions of [thing] so you don't go crazy, because [thing] was originally something you Did Not Want and being stuck with the consequences otherwise would just drive you nuts. Specifically with the biological imperative argument... I've always felt the opposite effect: being aware that my biology so wants me to have children makes me doubt whatever impulses I may have towards having children as being motivated by what I want, and instead being motivated by an evolutionary adaptation that doesn't take my psychology into account. [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science_of_happiness?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science...
- a_wild_dandan 6y ago
  It also reminds me of the choice-supportive bias.[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias
  - dennis_jeeves 6y ago
    Lol, not many parent will come forward and openly say that they regret having kids.
tshaddox 6y ago
Perhaps it would be better for your other genes (shared by living relatives) for you to not have kids and thus not potentially spread the genes that are causing hesitancy around having kids. :)
Barrin92 6y ago
>I can not guarantee my genes will win, but if I fail to reproduce I guarantee they will lose. It's probably not so wise to make decisions based on anthropomorphizing genes. They don't want anything other than to replicate, given that they're replicators and if they didn't they wouldn't continue to exist, that's all there is to it, it's a pretty meaningless affair. I feel paying more attention to one's cultural legacy probably makes more sense than passing one's hair colour on. That's not to say that having kids can't be fulfilling because many people get a lot of joy out of raising kids, but having attachment to a bunch of nucleotides seems kinda degrading to be honest
nonameiguess 6y ago
I've never had kids, but I have many sisters and cousins who have, so my genes have already been passed on. I'm personally mostly indifferent and sometimes want my own, but it's my wife's choice more than mine and she has medical issues that would make pregnancy extremely unpleasant and dangerous.

rimiform 6y ago

Kids might make your life better, but they probably would have been better off had you stuck to your plan of not having them.

conductr 6y ago
Not existing is better than existing? Suicide rates should be 99% then right, because if you’re not a 1%er it’s not worth living. That said, I do fear my kid will live to see something we’ve made apocalyptic movies about. Hell, we all might.
- tenacious_tuna 6y ago
  I think you're making a leap in OP's reasoning: they didn't say that for _currently existing_ people it's better to not be existing. I suspect the point is more that it will be better for future generations to limit the _size of_ future generations, lest we increase the amount of strain on the climate/energy production/water scarcity/etc. I also think OPs reasoning has more to do with the considerations of inflicting the potentially post-apocalyptic future on those future generations: there is an arguable moral duty to ensure that whatever offspring you have will have a (generally) good life, and that if you aren't reasonably sure of that it's A Bad Thing to have said offspring.
  - conductr 6y ago
    > they didn't say that for _currently existing_ people it's better to not be existing He said the guys kids would be better off if he didn’t have them. And basically said he had them for selfish reasons (kids make your life better) Seems like you’re the one making leaps, I read what was written
- tshaddox 6y ago
  There’s a big difference between never existing, and existing but then dying.
- nescioquid 6y ago
  It is antinatalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism), and an idea to which I'm not unsympathetic. Basically, life is suffering, and from the view of reducing the amount of suffering in the world, it is a good to abstain from bringing more beings into this world to suffer.
2lwxxtj 6y ago
I get the impression that you are not very happy in life.
samr71 6y ago
Such doom and gloom! You really believe the future is gonna be so bad that children would be better off not existing at all? The world has huge issues, sure, but it's still far better to be alive now than any time in human history. The only way the future could be worse is if this idea becomes mainstream and the prophecy self-fulfilling.
- tenacious_tuna 6y ago
  I think this is a rather short-sighted view; The future is not guaranteed to be better, especially not when we have lots of evidence of impending (1) massive climate disruption (2) water shortage (3) political polarization (4) economic imbalance, the list goes on. Saying "the only way" the world gets worse is if we don't have children is to ignore the potential for all of those effects to grow worse. It's certainly possible that we may overcome them and human life will continue on its merry way, but it's very unreasonable to ignore all these difficulties and the psychological effects they can have on new parents.... And on new children. What would your response be to a 9 year old having an existential crisis about the polar bears starving to death because of climate change, and the implications for human civilization, and civilization's apparent apathy towards that? "Don't worry kid, just make sure you have children of your own and everything will work out"?
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    > What would your response be to a 9 year old having an existential crisis about the polar bears starving to death because of climate change, and the implications for human civilization, and civilization's apparent apathy towards that? "Don't worry kid, just make sure you have children of your own and everything will work out"? Speaking as a new parent who did in fact have an existential crisis about this as a child, very very disappointed in both myself and the rest of us.
  - samr71 6y ago
    All of the things you listed are solvable problems, with hundreds of thousands of people working tirelessly to solve them. Fear porn about the impending collapse of everything helps no one, and is the reason why that the 9 year old is having an existential crisis about polar bears at all. Should we worry about these things? Absolutely! But the incessant hysteria is counter productive. Us ceasing having children in a form of civilizational suicide is not a solution.

globular-toast 6y ago

Your ancestors were just fucking without contraception. They weren't trying to "pass on the torch" or anything silly like that.

calebm 6y ago
Maybe not consciously, but what about subconsciously?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nitrogen 6y ago
Historical creation myths seem to say otherwise. E.g. those referring to seed, or fruit of the loins, or commandments to multiply.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Even if we are to believe that humans need to be commanded to reproduce, you're talking about the last few thousand years, not 3 billion.

tenacious_tuna 6y ago

I'm always suspicious of anecdotes that go "I never wanted to do [thing], and then I had a thought that changed my perspective on [thing] though it's not really logical up front, and then [thing] happened and now I love [thing]." I always suspect it's the psycological immune system [1] kicking in to alter your own perceptions of [thing] so you don't go crazy, because [thing] was originally something you Did Not Want and being stuck with the consequences otherwise would just drive you nuts. Specifically with the biological imperative argument... I've always felt the opposite effect: being aware that my biology so wants me to have children makes me doubt whatever impulses I may have towards having children as being motivated by what I want, and instead being motivated by an evolutionary adaptation that doesn't take my psychology into account. [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science_of_happiness?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science...

a_wild_dandan 6y ago
It also reminds me of the choice-supportive bias.[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias
- dennis_jeeves 6y ago
  Lol, not many parent will come forward and openly say that they regret having kids.

tshaddox 6y ago

Perhaps it would be better for your other genes (shared by living relatives) for you to not have kids and thus not potentially spread the genes that are causing hesitancy around having kids. :)

Barrin92 6y ago

>I can not guarantee my genes will win, but if I fail to reproduce I guarantee they will lose. It's probably not so wise to make decisions based on anthropomorphizing genes. They don't want anything other than to replicate, given that they're replicators and if they didn't they wouldn't continue to exist, that's all there is to it, it's a pretty meaningless affair. I feel paying more attention to one's cultural legacy probably makes more sense than passing one's hair colour on. That's not to say that having kids can't be fulfilling because many people get a lot of joy out of raising kids, but having attachment to a bunch of nucleotides seems kinda degrading to be honest

nonameiguess 6y ago

I've never had kids, but I have many sisters and cousins who have, so my genes have already been passed on. I'm personally mostly indifferent and sometimes want my own, but it's my wife's choice more than mine and she has medical issues that would make pregnancy extremely unpleasant and dangerous.