12 ms·

Toyota Develops Packaged Fuel Cell System Module for Hydrogen Utilization

107 points by panabee 6y ago

blackoil 6y ago
People with knowledge, why are fuel cell cars not under 20k USD, because production is low or something fundamental?
- Hypx 6y ago
  They certainly could. We just live in the pre-"Model T" era of fuel cell cars.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Expensive materials in the fuel cells is another factor. But yes, small production runs are terrible for costs.
- danans 6y ago
  A hydrogen fuel cell car is basically an electric car + a hydrogen fuel cell, because: 1) The energy from the fuel cell has to be temporarily buffered in a battery, which is capable of finely modulating the power output needed for driving vs a fuel cell. 2) To absorb energy from regenerative braking. Hydrogen fuel for automotive applications don't work in reverse (convert energy back to H2) Granted, this battery in a fuel cell vehicle can be smaller than in a pure EV, but now you have 2 very expensive energy management systems in the car, which makes the whole thing very expensive.
varjag 6y ago
It now appears Toyota's early bet on fuel cells in automotive was misplaced. A rental place not far from me offers a hydrogen vehicle. And while the range in theory is better than many EVs, you are essentially limited to that radius from their offices. It's the worst things about gas and charging infrastructure combined: the infrastructure does not exist and it is a substantial investment to outfit it in new places.
- ed_balls 6y ago
  hydrogen maybe the only economical way of transporting goods on medium and long distances - you don't wanna drag 5 tonnes of batteries with you.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Unfortunately I think diesel is going to win over hydrogen for a long long time.
    - Ma8ee 6y ago
      Did you miss the memo about the climate emergency?
  - PhantomGremlin 6y ago
    hydrogen maybe the only economical way of transporting goods on medium and long distances The word "only" in your sentence is only meaningful in a world in which diesel fuel and natural gas don't exist. Check out this map from the US DOE: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html Why there must be dozens of natural gas (both LNG and CNG) fueling stations around the country. There are even a handful in Canada. Almost nothing, but still way ahead of hydrogen. If you look at pure hydrogen (same map), there appear to be a few dozen stations in the entire country, all in California. In comparison, the number of electric stations (same map) is huge. Pure hydrogen is in last place. It's a joke. Toyota has wasted billions of dollars on it. Nobody is going to build out a hydrogen infrastructure given all the alternatives. Hydrogen as a transportation fuel is deader than the parrot in the Monty Python sketch. No amount of wishful thinking can change that.
    - bobmaxup 6y ago
      Because there aren't many hydrogen refueling stations currently in the United States, no one is going to build any more, so it is a joke and dead?
rio517 6y ago
I feel like Toyota is wasting its money. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't ever see hydrogen fuel cells gaining traction for a few reasons: * For transport, electric car infrastructure is already growing and hydrogen is exceedingly unlikely to be able to keep up. * Electric batteries are getting better faster than anyone thought and after a plateau, the rate is accelerating again. * Energy efficiency, infrastructure, and maintenance of fuel cells is worse than electric cars. This poorly translated article for VW cover the most of these points in more detail: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydroge... Most hydrogen advocates discuss new membranes that could improve electrolysis efficiency to 80+%. Even at 100%, the equation still seems to be worse for hydrogen than electric, for transportation at least.
- KSteffensen 6y ago
  For cars you are probably right. How does it look for planes, ships and even trains? Also, home heating. When can I buy something based on a fuel cell that will let me replace my oil furnace? And there's the potential for buffering excess renewable energy. for now this problem can largely be solved by improving the electricity transmission infrastructure between countries, but it's unclear to me that this is sufficient in the long run. I dream of the Star Trek like future where the Earths energy is supplied from solar panels in the Sahara, generating hydrogen which is then shipped around the world.
  - PhantomGremlin 6y ago
    solar panels in the Sahara Given the inefficiency of photovoltaic -> hydrogen -> liquid hydrogen? transport (how, not easy) It would probably be easier to create and ship LNG. At least we know how to do that. But you're much better off just putting 2x or 3x the number of solar panels in countries that don't have as high a solar irradiance as the Sahara does. Or even do HVDC from the Sahara to Europe. That is probably much higher efficiency than trying to use hydrogen or natural gas. BTW in case anyone is interested, here is a map of solar irradiance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_irradiance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_irradiance
futevolei 6y ago
How did Toyota (seemingly) blow this so bad? Arguably the leader in electric vehicles/technology with the Prius which first came out in 1997(!). And then nothing since like 2010. so many opportunities to reset/pivot back to batteries along the way yet they keep doubling down on fuel cells. I hope they crack whatever challenges they are facing but to me it looks like an all-in bet that won’t work out.
- Neil44 6y ago
  I would say they've doubled down on hybrids more than fuel cells, they sell absolutely tons of them, which ultimately is the name of the game. They're perhaps later than others to the pure EV game which I assume is a conscious strategy. Keeping the fuel cell thing going in the background is pretty small potatoes to Toyota.
  - futevolei 6y ago
    They (all of them actually) left open this huge hole which Tesla was able to exploit and become most valuable carmaker by a factor of 3. GM, Ford, vw, Porsche all have electrics on the road right now. I’m not saying Toyota is the next research in motion but it does feel like an iPhone moment.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jcfrei 6y ago
      Tesla was definitely an iPhone moment but Toyota (and other established manufacturers) are looking more like Androids to me (lower margins but higher volumes).
    - Neil44 6y ago
      I unerstand the feeling. But I don't understand the valuation on Tesla shares since they sell about 5% of the cars Toyota do and only make a profit effectively because of government subsidies. Yet many people act like Tesla is showing everyone up. I don't get it. Yes they've used bulk money to pull back this massive slingshot of potential and people are excited about what's going to happen. But I believe the established car co's will just say, thanks for spending billions preparing the market for EV's, we'll be eating our usual share of that pie now thanks Elon. Who knows.
LeonM 6y ago
I'm not a chemist, but I'm sure there are many here on HN. AFAIK hydrogen mixed with oxygen ranges from 'highly flammable' to 'highly explosive'. Wouldn't hydrogen cars (or any hydrogen power for that matter) be much more dangerous compared to fossil fuels or electricity? Sure, a lithium battery burning in an underground parking garage is dangerous. But having a car leaking hydrogen into an underground parking sounds like a recipe for disaster. Can anyone with chemistry experience shed some light on the dangers if say 10% of cars in an urban environment were to be equiped with high pressure hydrogen tanks?
- senectus1 6y ago
  check out PowerPaste
- tinco 6y ago
  "wide variety of applications, including mobility such as trucks, buses, trains and ships, as well as stationary generators" Now that lithium batteries have been proven to work well I don't think anyone is still seriously thinking about hydrogen cars. There's definitely a cost/weight/safety/efficiency trade off that makes hydrogen just very unattractive for cars or really any consumer application.
flurdy 6y ago
I appreciate Toyota still sticking with fuel cells when none/few others are. We need alternatives, and there will be markets where hydrogen makes more sense than electric etc. But as a company/shareholder it seems nuts. They are swimming against a massive current and investing lots of money that instead could have gone on their EV offering.
- OliverJones 6y ago
  Offering the fruits of their fuel-cell development in standard OEM packaging is good business. It potentially unleashes all sorts of creative grid-disconnected applications. Not everything electric is a road-certified vehicle. It makes those applications able to succeed at fairly low volume. Farm equipment? Fork trucks for warehouses? Backup power generation? Now, if they can get those boxes to run both directions (to consume power and water to produce hydrogen when needed) that will be very interesting. Of course, this may also be a hail-mary attempt to monetize their years of R&D of fuel cells for vehicles. We gotta try everything!
haspok 6y ago
For those who only read the title and the name of the company, not the actual article: > for wide variety of applications, including mobility such as trucks, buses, trains and ships, as well as stationary generators This has not much to do with electric _cars_.
specialist 6y ago
H2 is the apparent next step. I assume Toyota decided to mostly skip Li and focus on being H2's first mover. The kicker is timing: Is Toyota financially strong enough to persist until the H2 market is big enough to sustain them? Separately, Tesla has eschewed solid state Li batteries. That's kinda weird, right? Solid state appears to be a much better option. I think both Tesla and Toyota have determined, separately, that H2 will become viable before solid-state is mature enough to replace Li-ion. Again, timing. How long? 10 years? 20 years?
edhelas 6y ago
95% of hydrogen worldwide is carbon-based. Power to H2 to power is 70% energy lost. Solve those two problems first before dealing with hydrogen storage.
- handwritingwhn 6y ago
  That's irrelevant if you're looking for a way to store excess energy.
- fomine3 6y ago
  Same argument was said to BEVs, then renewables solved problem.
  - edhelas 6y ago
    Oh they did :D ? I wasn't aware of that.
aphextron 6y ago
How the heck did Toyota get their own TLD?
- csours 6y ago
  Money. https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/program https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/program https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/auctions https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/auctions

107 points by panabee 6y ago

blackoil 6y ago

People with knowledge, why are fuel cell cars not under 20k USD, because production is low or something fundamental?

Hypx 6y ago
They certainly could. We just live in the pre-"Model T" era of fuel cell cars.
pjc50 6y ago
Expensive materials in the fuel cells is another factor. But yes, small production runs are terrible for costs.
danans 6y ago
A hydrogen fuel cell car is basically an electric car + a hydrogen fuel cell, because: 1) The energy from the fuel cell has to be temporarily buffered in a battery, which is capable of finely modulating the power output needed for driving vs a fuel cell. 2) To absorb energy from regenerative braking. Hydrogen fuel for automotive applications don't work in reverse (convert energy back to H2) Granted, this battery in a fuel cell vehicle can be smaller than in a pure EV, but now you have 2 very expensive energy management systems in the car, which makes the whole thing very expensive.

varjag 6y ago

It now appears Toyota's early bet on fuel cells in automotive was misplaced. A rental place not far from me offers a hydrogen vehicle. And while the range in theory is better than many EVs, you are essentially limited to that radius from their offices. It's the worst things about gas and charging infrastructure combined: the infrastructure does not exist and it is a substantial investment to outfit it in new places.

ed_balls 6y ago
hydrogen maybe the only economical way of transporting goods on medium and long distances - you don't wanna drag 5 tonnes of batteries with you.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Unfortunately I think diesel is going to win over hydrogen for a long long time.
  - Ma8ee 6y ago
    Did you miss the memo about the climate emergency?
- PhantomGremlin 6y ago
  hydrogen maybe the only economical way of transporting goods on medium and long distances The word "only" in your sentence is only meaningful in a world in which diesel fuel and natural gas don't exist. Check out this map from the US DOE: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html Why there must be dozens of natural gas (both LNG and CNG) fueling stations around the country. There are even a handful in Canada. Almost nothing, but still way ahead of hydrogen. If you look at pure hydrogen (same map), there appear to be a few dozen stations in the entire country, all in California. In comparison, the number of electric stations (same map) is huge. Pure hydrogen is in last place. It's a joke. Toyota has wasted billions of dollars on it. Nobody is going to build out a hydrogen infrastructure given all the alternatives. Hydrogen as a transportation fuel is deader than the parrot in the Monty Python sketch. No amount of wishful thinking can change that.
  - bobmaxup 6y ago
    Because there aren't many hydrogen refueling stations currently in the United States, no one is going to build any more, so it is a joke and dead?

rio517 6y ago

I feel like Toyota is wasting its money. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't ever see hydrogen fuel cells gaining traction for a few reasons: * For transport, electric car infrastructure is already growing and hydrogen is exceedingly unlikely to be able to keep up. * Electric batteries are getting better faster than anyone thought and after a plateau, the rate is accelerating again. * Energy efficiency, infrastructure, and maintenance of fuel cells is worse than electric cars. This poorly translated article for VW cover the most of these points in more detail: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydroge... Most hydrogen advocates discuss new membranes that could improve electrolysis efficiency to 80+%. Even at 100%, the equation still seems to be worse for hydrogen than electric, for transportation at least.

KSteffensen 6y ago
For cars you are probably right. How does it look for planes, ships and even trains? Also, home heating. When can I buy something based on a fuel cell that will let me replace my oil furnace? And there's the potential for buffering excess renewable energy. for now this problem can largely be solved by improving the electricity transmission infrastructure between countries, but it's unclear to me that this is sufficient in the long run. I dream of the Star Trek like future where the Earths energy is supplied from solar panels in the Sahara, generating hydrogen which is then shipped around the world.
- PhantomGremlin 6y ago
  solar panels in the Sahara Given the inefficiency of photovoltaic -> hydrogen -> liquid hydrogen? transport (how, not easy) It would probably be easier to create and ship LNG. At least we know how to do that. But you're much better off just putting 2x or 3x the number of solar panels in countries that don't have as high a solar irradiance as the Sahara does. Or even do HVDC from the Sahara to Europe. That is probably much higher efficiency than trying to use hydrogen or natural gas. BTW in case anyone is interested, here is a map of solar irradiance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_irradiance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_irradiance

futevolei 6y ago

How did Toyota (seemingly) blow this so bad? Arguably the leader in electric vehicles/technology with the Prius which first came out in 1997(!). And then nothing since like 2010. so many opportunities to reset/pivot back to batteries along the way yet they keep doubling down on fuel cells. I hope they crack whatever challenges they are facing but to me it looks like an all-in bet that won’t work out.

Neil44 6y ago
I would say they've doubled down on hybrids more than fuel cells, they sell absolutely tons of them, which ultimately is the name of the game. They're perhaps later than others to the pure EV game which I assume is a conscious strategy. Keeping the fuel cell thing going in the background is pretty small potatoes to Toyota.
- futevolei 6y ago
  They (all of them actually) left open this huge hole which Tesla was able to exploit and become most valuable carmaker by a factor of 3. GM, Ford, vw, Porsche all have electrics on the road right now. I’m not saying Toyota is the next research in motion but it does feel like an iPhone moment.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jcfrei 6y ago
    Tesla was definitely an iPhone moment but Toyota (and other established manufacturers) are looking more like Androids to me (lower margins but higher volumes).
  - Neil44 6y ago
    I unerstand the feeling. But I don't understand the valuation on Tesla shares since they sell about 5% of the cars Toyota do and only make a profit effectively because of government subsidies. Yet many people act like Tesla is showing everyone up. I don't get it. Yes they've used bulk money to pull back this massive slingshot of potential and people are excited about what's going to happen. But I believe the established car co's will just say, thanks for spending billions preparing the market for EV's, we'll be eating our usual share of that pie now thanks Elon. Who knows.

LeonM 6y ago

I'm not a chemist, but I'm sure there are many here on HN. AFAIK hydrogen mixed with oxygen ranges from 'highly flammable' to 'highly explosive'. Wouldn't hydrogen cars (or any hydrogen power for that matter) be much more dangerous compared to fossil fuels or electricity? Sure, a lithium battery burning in an underground parking garage is dangerous. But having a car leaking hydrogen into an underground parking sounds like a recipe for disaster. Can anyone with chemistry experience shed some light on the dangers if say 10% of cars in an urban environment were to be equiped with high pressure hydrogen tanks?

senectus1 6y ago
check out PowerPaste
tinco 6y ago
"wide variety of applications, including mobility such as trucks, buses, trains and ships, as well as stationary generators" Now that lithium batteries have been proven to work well I don't think anyone is still seriously thinking about hydrogen cars. There's definitely a cost/weight/safety/efficiency trade off that makes hydrogen just very unattractive for cars or really any consumer application.

flurdy 6y ago

I appreciate Toyota still sticking with fuel cells when none/few others are. We need alternatives, and there will be markets where hydrogen makes more sense than electric etc. But as a company/shareholder it seems nuts. They are swimming against a massive current and investing lots of money that instead could have gone on their EV offering.

OliverJones 6y ago
Offering the fruits of their fuel-cell development in standard OEM packaging is good business. It potentially unleashes all sorts of creative grid-disconnected applications. Not everything electric is a road-certified vehicle. It makes those applications able to succeed at fairly low volume. Farm equipment? Fork trucks for warehouses? Backup power generation? Now, if they can get those boxes to run both directions (to consume power and water to produce hydrogen when needed) that will be very interesting. Of course, this may also be a hail-mary attempt to monetize their years of R&D of fuel cells for vehicles. We gotta try everything!

haspok 6y ago

For those who only read the title and the name of the company, not the actual article: > for wide variety of applications, including mobility such as trucks, buses, trains and ships, as well as stationary generators This has not much to do with electric _cars_.

specialist 6y ago

H2 is the apparent next step. I assume Toyota decided to mostly skip Li and focus on being H2's first mover. The kicker is timing: Is Toyota financially strong enough to persist until the H2 market is big enough to sustain them? Separately, Tesla has eschewed solid state Li batteries. That's kinda weird, right? Solid state appears to be a much better option. I think both Tesla and Toyota have determined, separately, that H2 will become viable before solid-state is mature enough to replace Li-ion. Again, timing. How long? 10 years? 20 years?

edhelas 6y ago

95% of hydrogen worldwide is carbon-based. Power to H2 to power is 70% energy lost. Solve those two problems first before dealing with hydrogen storage.

handwritingwhn 6y ago
That's irrelevant if you're looking for a way to store excess energy.
fomine3 6y ago
Same argument was said to BEVs, then renewables solved problem.
- edhelas 6y ago
  Oh they did :D ? I wasn't aware of that.

aphextron 6y ago

How the heck did Toyota get their own TLD?

csours 6y ago
Money. https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/program https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/program https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/auctions https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/auctions