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I think a large part of the support for Typescript comes from being able to create good tools for the language. But, I still have an aversion to front-end deve

I think a large part of the support for Typescript comes from being able to create good tools for the language. But, I still have an aversion to front-end development itself, because it just feels too _involved_. You have to set up so much, and it has become a lot more difficult since you need to install webpack, postcss, and many other plugins just to do a hello world app. It's still bearable if you have to do all of that, and you _understand_ what is going on, but most of the time, especially when it comes to front-end, I do things "because that's how it's done". This makes me feel very insecure about my code.

spyke112 6y ago
This argument also holds for backend development. I've spent days trying to get a big Java app working with Jboss at a new place, it was more or less a rite of passage when joining the team. Also setting up some local obscure Microsoft IIS setting because reasons. These days I find frontend tooling quite delightful, Typescript for instance Just Work(tm) our the box.
- gamesbrainiac 6y ago
  I can't comment on this, since I haven't really worked with JBoss, and haven't had to touch the .net stack in ages. The python stack is pretty okay though. You just containerize it, and ship it. Some providers will even allow you to run containers as a function/lambda.
Octoth0rpe 6y ago
> You have to set up so much I think tooling has mostly addressed this, or at least provided a mostly braindead path for 90% of needs. For example, npx create-react-app $YOURAPPNAME sets up practically everything you need to get a reasonable react app going, at least in terms of the transpiler/set of plugins. It makes very few choices re: actual react libs though (no preferred router, flux, etc). The preact equivalents are somewhat more opinionated, and go a bit farther in setting up routing/splitting nicely for you. > This makes me feel very insecure about my code. I get this. While I stand by what I mentioned above, it also makes me nervous that I understand so little of my setup given how much of it was setup automatically for me, which makes me trust the environment less. FWIW, outside of web dev it seems like _most_ people have no idea how their setup works re: compiling a project. How many devs for say postgres understand the make file or configure scripts? Probably not that many. Maybe that's getting better with newer tools like cargo, but web dev always seemed like the exception wrt understanding the bundling environment, and we're just now catching up to the level of complexity that other types of dev have had for decades. Edit: apparently that was a bad example. Postgres's make file is very simple: https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/Makefile https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/Makefile The configure script is less so: https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/configure https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/configure
- boring_twenties 6y ago
  That's not the real Makefile, that would be the GNUMakefile. Also pretty simple, though.
seph-reed 6y ago
I've spent the last two years writing my own framework because I hated React so damn much. It really doesn't have to be that complicated. Granted, I still use a bundler, but it's really easy to set up. I had my friend walk through it all... he seems to think it's great. I should probably release this project some day.
- j-krieger 6y ago
  Why did you hate react? It‘s really one of the less complicated frameworks out there.
  - seph-reed 6y ago
    It doesn't use native elements, and instead goes from React Components -> HTML Text -> Native Elements. So then the moment you have two elements interacting it falls on its face. Like forms.
    - j-krieger 6y ago
      Why do you think that? Forms can be easily manipulated with refs. A ref points to the native element. It‘s really not that hard
    - dbbk 6y ago
      Really struggling to parse what you've said here
- abraxas 6y ago
  Any reason you forged your own versus adopting Svelte or Alpine? As a fellow React hater I'd love your take on those lighter frameworks.
  - seph-reed 6y ago
    It started off as just a shorthand tool for creating elements: ``` div("ClassName", { childNodes: [], etc: {} }); ``` Then it grew into having a state management system. And now it's easily the best framework I've ever used... super fast, light weight, extremely malleable, easy to understand. I keep intending to release it, but I know just how much fun it is putting something out in the world... I don't want this project to turn into my life.

spyke112 6y ago

This argument also holds for backend development. I've spent days trying to get a big Java app working with Jboss at a new place, it was more or less a rite of passage when joining the team. Also setting up some local obscure Microsoft IIS setting because reasons. These days I find frontend tooling quite delightful, Typescript for instance Just Work(tm) our the box.

gamesbrainiac 6y ago
I can't comment on this, since I haven't really worked with JBoss, and haven't had to touch the .net stack in ages. The python stack is pretty okay though. You just containerize it, and ship it. Some providers will even allow you to run containers as a function/lambda.

Octoth0rpe 6y ago

> You have to set up so much I think tooling has mostly addressed this, or at least provided a mostly braindead path for 90% of needs. For example, npx create-react-app $YOURAPPNAME sets up practically everything you need to get a reasonable react app going, at least in terms of the transpiler/set of plugins. It makes very few choices re: actual react libs though (no preferred router, flux, etc). The preact equivalents are somewhat more opinionated, and go a bit farther in setting up routing/splitting nicely for you. > This makes me feel very insecure about my code. I get this. While I stand by what I mentioned above, it also makes me nervous that I understand so little of my setup given how much of it was setup automatically for me, which makes me trust the environment less. FWIW, outside of web dev it seems like _most_ people have no idea how their setup works re: compiling a project. How many devs for say postgres understand the make file or configure scripts? Probably not that many. Maybe that's getting better with newer tools like cargo, but web dev always seemed like the exception wrt understanding the bundling environment, and we're just now catching up to the level of complexity that other types of dev have had for decades. Edit: apparently that was a bad example. Postgres's make file is very simple: https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/Makefile https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/Makefile The configure script is less so: https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/configure https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/configure

boring_twenties 6y ago
That's not the real Makefile, that would be the GNUMakefile. Also pretty simple, though.

seph-reed 6y ago

I've spent the last two years writing my own framework because I hated React so damn much. It really doesn't have to be that complicated. Granted, I still use a bundler, but it's really easy to set up. I had my friend walk through it all... he seems to think it's great. I should probably release this project some day.

j-krieger 6y ago
Why did you hate react? It‘s really one of the less complicated frameworks out there.
- seph-reed 6y ago
  It doesn't use native elements, and instead goes from React Components -> HTML Text -> Native Elements. So then the moment you have two elements interacting it falls on its face. Like forms.
  - j-krieger 6y ago
    Why do you think that? Forms can be easily manipulated with refs. A ref points to the native element. It‘s really not that hard
  - dbbk 6y ago
    Really struggling to parse what you've said here
abraxas 6y ago
Any reason you forged your own versus adopting Svelte or Alpine? As a fellow React hater I'd love your take on those lighter frameworks.
- seph-reed 6y ago
  It started off as just a shorthand tool for creating elements: ``` div("ClassName", { childNodes: [], etc: {} }); ``` Then it grew into having a state management system. And now it's easily the best framework I've ever used... super fast, light weight, extremely malleable, easy to understand. I keep intending to release it, but I know just how much fun it is putting something out in the world... I don't want this project to turn into my life.