6 ms·

The most sensational Western spy failures in the USSR

58 points by georgecmu 6y ago

jwilber 6y ago
A nice, quick read. I had no idea how (apparently) commonplace it is to exchange captured spies for others - I’d just assumed all would be shot for treason (which, to be fair, also seems to be rather commonplace).
- walrus01 6y ago
  It seems that nobody wanted to set the precedent of shooting every spy found, lest the other side also do the same to your own guys that they've found/captured/arrested, who you're hoping to get back.
  - avmich 6y ago
    Unless one side doesn't really care that much for those clumsy spies - for them - who can't even keep themselves out of trouble. It's surprising sometimes how long such an approach can work.
    - anothernewdude 6y ago
      If they're clumsy spies you might as well give them back.
      - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
        Or feed them misinformation.
    - thatguy0900 6y ago
      How long will you have loyal, non defecting good spies if they see all their compatriots shot because you don't care about them
- nradov 6y ago
  Executing spies isn't an effective deterrent. So logically it makes sense to keep them around as potentially useful assets. Either for exchange, interrogation, or conversion into double agents.
- Xixi 6y ago
  Spies that are foreign citizens acting to help their own country are not usually considered traitors. Even if they assume a fake identity. So a Russian citizen spying US on the account of Russia would be a spy, but not a traitor. These spies are indeed usually captured (if discovered) and eventually exchanged. A traitor would be for instance a US citizen spying on the US to help China, or Russia. Or a Chinese citizen spying on China to help the US. This is a much more perilous situation than just being a spy...
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  In hot war the emotions run wild and spies are/were shot, often on the spot after a drumhead "court". In peace, even a cold peace that reigned post-1945, diplomacy and sustainability of your ops is taken into consideration. If your spies face certain death when caught, fewer will volunteer to become spies, especially if their expected career is measured in decades.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Spies from different nationalities seem to be fine - imprisonment, trial, exchange, etc. Spies from the same country as the target nation are in the gravest danger. Like what happened in China recently (where they shot spies point blank in front of their colleagues to send a message) or in Iran (where a wrestler/alleged spy was recently executed). That being said, the East has definitely been more unforgiving of treason than the West.
Waterluvian 6y ago
Those were great. I could read one hundred more of them at that size.
OnAironaut 6y ago
What is this "Russia Beyond" website?
- FpUser 6y ago
  A website dare I say.
- totalZero 6y ago
  State-owned media. Trust it as little as you would RT because it's run by the same organization. From https://www.rbth.com/about https://www.rbth.com/about: Russia Beyond is an international multimedia project operated by autonomous nonprofit organization “TV-Novosti”. Since launching in 2007, our mission has always been to help the world better understand Russia. We are your main gateway for all things Russia - from culture, travel, education, language, ways to do business, and much more. There’s so much to explore in Russia that it can be hard knowing where to start. We are here for you as a guide, helper, and advisor for any question related to our country. Russia Beyond’s target audience is a wide range of socially active people who want to find out more about the biggest country in the world – either for travel, business, educational, or professional purposes - or just for fun. Editor-in-Chief: Vsevolod Pulya Contact us at info@rbth.com or +7 (499) 75 000 75 ext. 3411 Online media registered by Roskomnadzor (Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications) on March 24, 2017, Certificate El No FS 77 - 69173 Сетевое издание зарегистрировано Роскомнадзором 24 марта 2017 г., свидетельство ЭЛ № ФС 77 - 69173
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    The three stories listed here are all public knowledge by now. If anything, they make the U-2/Powers incident sound better than the fiasco of bungling it really was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident
  - shitgoose 6y ago
    Please quote a single mischsrachterization from this article.
bolangi 6y ago
Despite having this inside info on Soviet military, the US experts drastically overestimated Soviet capabilities, and spent an enormous amount keeping up with an opponent over whom they were already far ahead.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Some of that was to goad them into wasting their own resources and of course to float the MIC jobs program.
- ilammy 6y ago
  > over whom they were already far ahead When you're ahead, get more ahead. Wouldn't hurt you if the opponent is still losing more.
- cameldrv 6y ago
  What do you mean by "far ahead?" Yes, U.S. technology was generally superior to Soviet tech. If you look at the two point scenarios that were generally talked about -- general nuclear war, and conventional war in Europe (with the Soviets attacking), I don't see a very clear advantage on either side. In the general nuclear war scenario, I don't think it's likely that either side would have been able to conduct a first strike without retaliation, at least from say, 1970 onward. By the 70s, that retaliation would have meant severe damage to all of the major cities on both sides, and neither side would have been in a position to invade the other in the aftermath, so the result is essentially a draw with both sides losing. In the invasion of Western Europe scenario, I think it's hard to say exactly how it would have played out. The Soviets had huge numerical superiority on the ground and in the air. The West had a qualitative advantage. On the ground, I'm not that convinced that the qualitative advantage was as severe as was suggested by Gulf War I. The Iraqi troops were not as well trained as the Soviets, their equipment was inferior export models of Soviet equipment, and engagement ranges in the desert were very long, which magnifies the American advantage. In the air, I think the West would probably have won air superiority, but I'm not convinced that tactical air like A-10s and helicopters would have been very effective with excellent Soviet air defense. The most likely scenario probably would have been the Soviet advance stalling out somewhere on one side or the other of the Rhine due to a long logistical tail. Either way, whichever side was losing likely would have resorted to tactical nuclear weapons, and it's difficult to see how this wouldn't escalate into a general nuclear war.
mindfulplay 6y ago
Highly recommend reading the book 'The spy and the traitor' for a similar case where western spy / intelligence failed but somehow managed to save the asset. (Book recommended by Bill Gates) It's a fascinating read on a long forgotten era, now replaced by hackers sitting in front of computers.
- malyk 6y ago
  Just finished reading this sunday night. Really enjoyed the story. Well written and exciting. Definite would second the recommendation.
zvozin 6y ago
Russia Beyond is a fairly cheap-o state propaganda organ. Just don’t do it (tm). For one example, you’d get an F in your 20th century history class if your paper on Penkovsky didn’t include so much as 2 sentences on his role in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Unless history wasn’t the point ;))).
- FpUser 6y ago
  May I ask where in particular do history classes mention Penkovsky at all?
billfruit 6y ago
Recently reading Graham Greene's The Human Factor, its portrayal of Western Intelligence agencies being mired in moral ambiguity and beurocratic confusions was compelling reading. I hear it was even made into a rather successful film. (Spoiler below.) . . . . . . . I wonder how the film or book would be received now, where it shows the protagonist who is an MI6 officer defecting to the USSR at the end of it.
- notyourday 6y ago
  You are thinking about Kim Philby
  - billfruit 6y ago
    Yes, what I was saying was that the book didn't place a damning moral judgement on the character/person; would a present day big studio movie take a similar line?

58 points by georgecmu 6y ago

A nice, quick read. I had no idea how (apparently) commonplace it is to exchange captured spies for others - I’d just assumed all would be shot for treason (which, to be fair, also seems to be rather commonplace).

walrus01 6y ago
It seems that nobody wanted to set the precedent of shooting every spy found, lest the other side also do the same to your own guys that they've found/captured/arrested, who you're hoping to get back.
- avmich 6y ago
  Unless one side doesn't really care that much for those clumsy spies - for them - who can't even keep themselves out of trouble. It's surprising sometimes how long such an approach can work.
  - anothernewdude 6y ago
    If they're clumsy spies you might as well give them back.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      Or feed them misinformation.
  - thatguy0900 6y ago
    How long will you have loyal, non defecting good spies if they see all their compatriots shot because you don't care about them
nradov 6y ago
Executing spies isn't an effective deterrent. So logically it makes sense to keep them around as potentially useful assets. Either for exchange, interrogation, or conversion into double agents.
Xixi 6y ago
Spies that are foreign citizens acting to help their own country are not usually considered traitors. Even if they assume a fake identity. So a Russian citizen spying US on the account of Russia would be a spy, but not a traitor. These spies are indeed usually captured (if discovered) and eventually exchanged. A traitor would be for instance a US citizen spying on the US to help China, or Russia. Or a Chinese citizen spying on China to help the US. This is a much more perilous situation than just being a spy...
inglor_cz 6y ago
In hot war the emotions run wild and spies are/were shot, often on the spot after a drumhead "court". In peace, even a cold peace that reigned post-1945, diplomacy and sustainability of your ops is taken into consideration. If your spies face certain death when caught, fewer will volunteer to become spies, especially if their expected career is measured in decades.
fakedang 6y ago
Spies from different nationalities seem to be fine - imprisonment, trial, exchange, etc. Spies from the same country as the target nation are in the gravest danger. Like what happened in China recently (where they shot spies point blank in front of their colleagues to send a message) or in Iran (where a wrestler/alleged spy was recently executed). That being said, the East has definitely been more unforgiving of treason than the West.

Waterluvian 6y ago

Those were great. I could read one hundred more of them at that size.

OnAironaut 6y ago

What is this "Russia Beyond" website?

FpUser 6y ago
A website dare I say.
totalZero 6y ago
State-owned media. Trust it as little as you would RT because it's run by the same organization. From https://www.rbth.com/about https://www.rbth.com/about: Russia Beyond is an international multimedia project operated by autonomous nonprofit organization “TV-Novosti”. Since launching in 2007, our mission has always been to help the world better understand Russia. We are your main gateway for all things Russia - from culture, travel, education, language, ways to do business, and much more. There’s so much to explore in Russia that it can be hard knowing where to start. We are here for you as a guide, helper, and advisor for any question related to our country. Russia Beyond’s target audience is a wide range of socially active people who want to find out more about the biggest country in the world – either for travel, business, educational, or professional purposes - or just for fun. Editor-in-Chief: Vsevolod Pulya Contact us at info@rbth.com or +7 (499) 75 000 75 ext. 3411 Online media registered by Roskomnadzor (Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications) on March 24, 2017, Certificate El No FS 77 - 69173 Сетевое издание зарегистрировано Роскомнадзором 24 марта 2017 г., свидетельство ЭЛ № ФС 77 - 69173
- Clewza313 6y ago
  The three stories listed here are all public knowledge by now. If anything, they make the U-2/Powers incident sound better than the fiasco of bungling it really was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident
- shitgoose 6y ago
  Please quote a single mischsrachterization from this article.

bolangi 6y ago

Despite having this inside info on Soviet military, the US experts drastically overestimated Soviet capabilities, and spent an enormous amount keeping up with an opponent over whom they were already far ahead.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Some of that was to goad them into wasting their own resources and of course to float the MIC jobs program.
ilammy 6y ago
> over whom they were already far ahead When you're ahead, get more ahead. Wouldn't hurt you if the opponent is still losing more.
cameldrv 6y ago
What do you mean by "far ahead?" Yes, U.S. technology was generally superior to Soviet tech. If you look at the two point scenarios that were generally talked about -- general nuclear war, and conventional war in Europe (with the Soviets attacking), I don't see a very clear advantage on either side. In the general nuclear war scenario, I don't think it's likely that either side would have been able to conduct a first strike without retaliation, at least from say, 1970 onward. By the 70s, that retaliation would have meant severe damage to all of the major cities on both sides, and neither side would have been in a position to invade the other in the aftermath, so the result is essentially a draw with both sides losing. In the invasion of Western Europe scenario, I think it's hard to say exactly how it would have played out. The Soviets had huge numerical superiority on the ground and in the air. The West had a qualitative advantage. On the ground, I'm not that convinced that the qualitative advantage was as severe as was suggested by Gulf War I. The Iraqi troops were not as well trained as the Soviets, their equipment was inferior export models of Soviet equipment, and engagement ranges in the desert were very long, which magnifies the American advantage. In the air, I think the West would probably have won air superiority, but I'm not convinced that tactical air like A-10s and helicopters would have been very effective with excellent Soviet air defense. The most likely scenario probably would have been the Soviet advance stalling out somewhere on one side or the other of the Rhine due to a long logistical tail. Either way, whichever side was losing likely would have resorted to tactical nuclear weapons, and it's difficult to see how this wouldn't escalate into a general nuclear war.

mindfulplay 6y ago

Highly recommend reading the book 'The spy and the traitor' for a similar case where western spy / intelligence failed but somehow managed to save the asset. (Book recommended by Bill Gates) It's a fascinating read on a long forgotten era, now replaced by hackers sitting in front of computers.

malyk 6y ago
Just finished reading this sunday night. Really enjoyed the story. Well written and exciting. Definite would second the recommendation.

zvozin 6y ago

Russia Beyond is a fairly cheap-o state propaganda organ. Just don’t do it (tm). For one example, you’d get an F in your 20th century history class if your paper on Penkovsky didn’t include so much as 2 sentences on his role in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Unless history wasn’t the point ;))).

FpUser 6y ago
May I ask where in particular do history classes mention Penkovsky at all?

billfruit 6y ago

Recently reading Graham Greene's The Human Factor, its portrayal of Western Intelligence agencies being mired in moral ambiguity and beurocratic confusions was compelling reading. I hear it was even made into a rather successful film. (Spoiler below.) . . . . . . . I wonder how the film or book would be received now, where it shows the protagonist who is an MI6 officer defecting to the USSR at the end of it.

notyourday 6y ago
You are thinking about Kim Philby
- billfruit 6y ago
  Yes, what I was saying was that the book didn't place a damning moral judgement on the character/person; would a present day big studio movie take a similar line?