16 ms·

Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

215 points by decrypt 6y ago

1MachineElf 6y ago
I would gladly pay $10/month to support Element and Matrix.
- regnerba 6y ago
  So why don't you?
  - 1MachineElf 6y ago
    As you probably saw in the blog post, the ability to do this is currently only offered via the desktop app, which I do not use. I only use the web interface, the Android app, and a non-Element matrix client. Element said in the blog post that it will add this option to the Android app, and once it does, I will use it and subscribe. Hopefully that answers your question.
    - decrypt 6y ago
      Accounts on their Element Home plan can work on Android and iOS apps too. It's just that copying over data from a different homeserver to this new homeserver is possible only on the desktop app at the moment.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        The ability to copy traffic history from one homeserver to another is a huge deal. I have not succeeded in discovering any details of this rollout. What server versions support it? Does it suffice to copy using one client, once, and then all clients see the result? Or, only after pointing those other clients at the new server? Do the other clients only see old traffic, after, until they are switched over, too? How can I have more thsn one homeserver watched? Do I need to run N independent client apps (e.g. Element and Fluffychat), with each pointed at one homeserver? It is very hard to find out any details of what is handled where in Matrix. Nobody in rooms devoted to services acknowledges questions, never mind answering any.
      - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
        As you rightly say, you can use any client for Element Home and the only restriction is that the in-app setup and migration wizard is only available in the Element web clients at the moment (this is now corrected in the blog article). That said, the Matrix->Matrix migration tools (https://ems.element.io/tools/matrix-migration https://ems.element.io/tools/matrix-migration) can be used outside of the setup flow, to help migrate your existing chats to new accounts. So people can always use those separately from host setup, if needed.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      The Element desktop app SEGFAULTs on startup when I run it on Debian (partly "unstable", like everybody). Curiously, a prior version used to work, and then recently started crashing with no apparent changes, and still crashes apparently the same way after upgrading to the latest release. It is possible that one of its 100+ library dependencies updated, and Element depends on behavior not retained. I have not dug into where it crashes, yet. Element rooms have got so slow, lately, I hardly use it anymore. Nobody will say who is responsible. The room owner? My homeserver? Others' homeservers? Matrix.org? All I ever see is the spinner, with no hint as to what or who it is waiting on, or any way evident to ever find out. On the Android app, meanwhile, rooms have taken to keeping a series of one or more very old messages always displayed at the bottom where current messages are supposed to be, taking up as much as half the screen, thus far. It also makes a noise every 30 seconds that I cannot turn off, spamming my notifications log to tell me it has polled its server again. I have found that force-killing the app makes this go away. I don't know if this makes it unable to alert me to timely messages from others on my homeserver. The constant noises make it hard to care. Fluffychat has the same noise problems, so the notification spam is probably in the client library. The sticky ancient message problem is only in Android Element.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        Strace says Desktop Element crashes after a series of calls to recvmsg; one returns 32 bytes, then four fail with EAGAIN. Gdb says SIGSEGV at 0x000055555a03b652, which points into /usr/bin/element-desktop, v1.7.21 from packages.riot.im/debian/. So, probably not a dependency.
        Arathorn 6y ago
        Looking on Element Web/Desktop's issue tracker: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=is%3Aissue+segfault https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=is%3Aissue... there are no open issues concerning segfaults currently. If you file a bug report with the details requested in the template then we'll be able to investigate and fix it, just as we did for https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/13553 https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/13553 (for instance). Otherwise, expecting us to be aware of this and to fix it without a bug report is not going to happen. In terms of "slow rooms" - we'd need more details to advise. A bug report on github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues would give us something to go on. In terms of stuck messages on Element Android - this sounds like a bug which was fixed months ago. Please upgrade. In terms of getting a notification every time the app syncs - I have no idea what would cause that, nor have I heard of it. Please file a bug at https://github.com/vector-im/element-android/issues https://github.com/vector-im/element-android/issues.
    - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
      Ahh... thanks for pointing that out. That was a mistake in the blog article (fixed now). In fact the migrator only works on the web apps at the moment (not desktop or mobile). That said, even if the in-app migrator isn't available to other clients, people are obviously free to set up Element Nickel or Home direct from the website.
- Esras 6y ago
  If you (or anyone else reading this) are okay with Patreon, they do have one at https://www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg https://www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg. If you don't like Patreon for some reason, they are also on Liberapay, PayPal, and accept BTC and ETH. They have some minor benefits and flair, although the page hasn't been updated in awhile, so I don't know how many are still valid.
  - derin 6y ago
    I was on their Patreon for a while, but had to hop off because of financial fun. Sadly none of the rewards are updated and the flair is no longer given out; at this point it makes sense to just see it as a donation.
    - kitkat_new 6y ago
      Actually, the flair still seems to be given out.
      - derin 6y ago
        Guess I was just skipped, then. C'est la vie - still a great project, and one worth sponsoring if you can (IMO).
regnerba 6y ago
Why home vs nickle? Nickle seems to be the same with the addition of your own DNS for the same price.
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  What you are referencing sounds interesting. Would you please provide a link with more information? Googling "nickle matrix" does not yeild useful results, and it's even worse for "nickle element"
  - decrypt 6y ago
    Nickel is one of their existing plans, and Home is their new plan. Both offer the same features, except that Nickel offers an ability to use custom domains and is aimed at businesses. More on their pricing page [1] [1] https://element.io/pricing https://element.io/pricing
    - estaseuropano 6y ago
      It looks like Nickel is $2/user, with a minimum of $10. So for a family a fixed $10 is probably the smarter choice, rather than to have $2 more for every user added. EDIT: it seems Home is limited to 5 users, which means it's actually the same price. May i ask what would be the benefit of having your own DNS? I don't understand what your average group chat would gain...
      - decrypt 6y ago
        The primary and only advantage that I can think of is, personalized addresses. It's better to have one's address as `@james:potter.family` instead of `@james:potter.ems.host`, where `potter.family` is my custom domain.
      - emaro 6y ago
        Maybe your own domain. In the home expamples all usernames are `@name:subdomain.ems.host`.
      - 6y ago
estaseuropano 6y ago
The day the element and jitsi projects marry and offer a single $10 plan for secure chat and group video all the commercial providers can pack up... But I fear the day may never come.
- zaik 6y ago
  I think Jitsi is build on XMPP for chat right? XMPP already offers federated and e2ee chat.
- kitkat_new 6y ago
  Element has group video calls using Jitsi integrated
gorgonzolachz 6y ago
This seems like a great move forward for Element, looks like this is angling to replace the New Vector offering they had a while back? The pricing is certainly odd, though. For 5 bucks a month I run my own server with almost a dozen folks on it, which requires basically zero maintenance (I can count the number of times I've had to go in and restart it over the past two years on one hand). Double that for a limit of 5 users (with another $2/user surcharge) is high for what I'd expect is a logical separation of tenants under the hood. I know some of the Matrix folks pop in to HN threads from time to time, and I'll readily admit my woeful inexperience in all things business. That said, could someone enlighten me as to how the pricing strategy was determined? It seems like the better route would have been to create an obscenely cheap plan on the low end for groups/families and push for enterprise adoption (perhaps even with increased prices, $75/mo for 25 users seems on the low end at first glance). Edit: Just re-read the first paragraph and caught this: "You can just enjoy the fact you know you chose someone you trust (us!) with your data." The whole reason I'm using element is because I don't trust anyone else with my data & social connections, and so I'd like to own as much of that scope as possible. I'm sure it's just a poorly worded marketing zinger, but it's unfortunate nonetheless.
- anotherboffin 6y ago
  I also think the explanation could use a bit of work. If I have more than 5 users, do I need to switch to Nickel? Get another Home plan?
  - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
    Up to 5 Monthly Active Users are included in your subscription. After that you can add additional users at an additional $2 per user per month. It's worth noting that the Monthly Active bit can be quite important. What this means is that you're not charged for the number of users registered on your server, but the number who are actively using the server. Users are only considered as "active" and counting towards the number that you pay for if they use the account for more than two days in a rolling 30 day period. The aim here is that you're not penalised for occasional or "drive-by" users of the service. (Disclaimer -- I head up EMS (Element Matrix Services))
pedro2 6y ago
This is probably a stab at BeeperHQ, judging by the price.
- kitkat_new 6y ago
  Hasn't this offer already been existing for a while?
  - pedro2 6y ago
    Maybe. If so, I wasn’t aware. I always thought the cheapest plan was pricier than €10.
- erohead 6y ago
  I chat with Arathorn pretty regularly and I'm quite sure that we're not competitors, at least not yet . Beeper is focused in hosting and maintaining bridges between Matrix and other networks. EMS is vanilla Matrix hosting.
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    Work on Element Home predates Beeper's launch by a few months, and is in no way a response to it. EMS does have some paid bridges too, but the emphasis is on the Matrix rather than the bridging, unlike Beeper.
luplex 6y ago
Good stuff! Now we just need to get the cost down. I got email hosting for free with my domain, that's the price point I would like for Matrix, too.
- decrypt 6y ago
  May I ask which registrar it is? The ones I know only offer email forwarding for free, not a full-fledged email account.
  - illuminated 6y ago
    Not OP, but I'm getting the same from Gandi [0]. [0] https://gandi.net/ https://gandi.net/
  - luplex 6y ago
    It's Strato.de Depending on the specific package, I get 1-unlimited email accounts on my new domain
vbezhenar 6y ago
"Dedicated server" mentioned 4 times in that article. In hosting world, dedicated server means real physical server. I wonder if that's just marketing speak and in reality it's virtual server or they really install a separate server for every customer.
- jtsiskin 6y ago
  Its $10 a month - unless they're using raspberry pi's, I think you can assume virtual servers.
- its-summertime 6y ago
  server as in the server daemon, not server as in the physical server.
  - readflaggedcomm 6y ago
    I would phrase that as 'server instance.' Their language like "you’re sharing minimal infrastructure with anyone else" does reinforce the idea they mean physical server. Maybe "dedicated" and "infrastructure" are being abstracted into meaninglessness as cloud computing matures.
    - JimDabell 6y ago
      “Fully managed, dedicated server” absolutely means that you get your own hardware. If they are using it to mean a virtual server, that seems incredibly dishonest to me.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        Agree.
- privacyonsec 6y ago
  they could have used "personal server" instead ?
- 6y ago
neiman 6y ago
Could anyone TL;DR this? I honestly struggle with understanding what exactly is the offer.
- foobar33333 6y ago
  You get your own instance of the matrix server to use which is faster than the shared free instance. Saves you from having to host it yourself.
- e12e 6y ago
  Imagine if you paid for email accounts - this is like paying 10usd/month for up to 5 email accounts (with eg fastmail). Only its not email, but text/voice/video/group chat.
teruakohatu 6y ago
I believe they are asking twice as much as they should be. Hear me out. At $1/month/user, they would make $12/user/year. I would say most people have extended ~10-20 family members they communicate with, at $20 -$40/month on the lowest priced plan, that would be a fair expenditure that would fall on one family member, because trying to get everyone to chip in if usually unrealistic. Now outside of the USA it begins to get really expensive. If they could offer it at $1/month, they would have significantly greater uptake. As for the bandwidth and hosting costs, are they not paying for that anyway through the default Matrix server? I get they want to make money from businesses, but they are pricing out a lot of families who have Facebook-fatige.
- azornathogron 6y ago
  I agree. They're competing against free services. For many if not most family-and-friend groups there will only be one person knowledgeable about matrix and actively interested in using it (there might be more interested in using "something that's not Facebook", but matrix isn't the only option there). This needs to be priced low enough that one person can buy it without thinking and get their family and some friends on the thing. Maybe start at $40/year or $25/six months, up to 15 accounts. Pay six months or a year to start so there's no subscription, then give an option to pay for another block or switch to monthly. Also needs to include bring-your-own-domain (ie, let the customer point DNS at the service), because if you're interested in matrix and want to have your own homeserver then you know you also want to properly own the domain to avoid being locked into a particular hosting provider. (All just my opinion, I have no relevant experience, etc etc)
pimeys 6y ago
Does this include all the bridges? So the users of the instance can combine other platforms to the same app, such as signal, instagram, twitter, whatsapp, irc, telegram and all that?
- kevincox 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But my real question is can you run your own bridges with this homeserver?
- ibraheemdev 6y ago
  Is there a whatsapp bridge?
  - kitkat_new 6y ago
    Yes, but it is not being offered as a hosted service atm: https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-whatsapp https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-whatsapp https://element.io/element-matrix-store https://element.io/element-matrix-store
    - upofadown 6y ago
      You would not want some sort of popular Whatsapp bridge. That would an easy target for Facebook. It would likely be blocked. Better for everyone to run their own bridges...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
SecurityLagoon 6y ago
Is that the only base domain? ems.host (I assume element matrix service?) is so uninspired and sounds like a back end domain rather than what you want your identity tied to. Could they not have gone with something a bit more catchy and on brand?
- Tepix 6y ago
  Well i haven't really gotten used to the name "Element" yet, it's as bland as it gets.
  - bogwog 6y ago
    And vague. At least "Telegram", "Signal", and "Whatsapp" suggest that they have something to do with communication, whereas neither "Element" nor its logo/icon suggest what it is. Unless they know what it is already, most people would probably scroll past it, assuming it's like a boring CRM thing or crappy drop-shipping store or whatever. But I guess it's too late for them to reverse that decision. Maybe the logo will change, but the name is probably here to stay.
plainoldcheese 6y ago
not sure i understood from the article, is this supposed ot host a server locally on your device rather than use someone elses server? (that would make it function almost like a peer to peer system.) or is it just a way for them to market their own hosting for matrix servers?
ucha 6y ago
Back when WhatsApp's business model relied on subscriptions rather than ads, it sold for $1/year. What justifies this being 120x more expensive? Is it just economies of scale?
- mariusor 6y ago
  WhatsApp was selling you access to your account. Element is selling you access to an instance which you can share with as many users as you want.
  - ucha 6y ago
    The pricing page says you can only share it with 5 users for the $10/month package. Am I missing something?
    - mariusor 6y ago
      You are right, apologies. :) x24 more than WhatsApp for the benefit of being sure your data doesn't fall into third party hands, that's for you to decide if it's enough.
      - dtx1 6y ago
        "your data" falls into at least elements and aws hands with this. Yeah the content is encrypted but there's lots of metadata to grab by malicous actors. The reality is 10$ for 25 Users would have been more reasonable. Enough to setup a server for your family and close friends.
zaggynl 6y ago
The terms of service are interesting: > This agreement does not apply to Matrix servers run by anyone else - Matrix is an open network like the Web and this agreement only applies to the server provisioned by the Customer and provided by Element. What do other Matrix servers matter to my hypothetical Element Home server or my selfhosted matrix-synapse server? >The Customer must ensure that all Authorised Users are at least 16 (sixteen) years old to use both our Hosting and Communication Services or such greater age required in their country to register for or use our Hosting and Communication Services. So no using it with your younger family or school for example? I appreciate a service being offered but would prefer a solution that enables an out of the box package for self hosted consumer NAS systems. Maybe something to provide dyndns, a domain and a quick setup.
- callahad 6y ago
  > What do other Matrix servers matter to my hypothetical Element Home server or my selfhosted matrix-synapse server? Matrix is federated, like email. Once you send a message to someone on another server, what happens to it is out of your / your server's control. (E.g., Google's Terms of Service apply to Gmail, but you can use Gmail to send mail to someone at Yahoo... at which point it's beyond Google's reach.)
chacha2 6y ago
This would be insane for anyone outside of HN. $10 a month for a 5 person chat? They know everyone can get this free elsewhere for decades now? A 5 person Signal group would even have higher security.
- feanaro 6y ago
  > A 5 person Signal group would even have higher security. Why is it higher security?
  - azornathogron 6y ago
    Fewer ways for it to be misconfigured? In Matrix you've got to remember to turn on the encryption, and verify each of your clients. At least that's my understanding, maybe that is out of date.
    - tffg 6y ago
      Encryption is on by default. In both cases you should verify.
      - azornathogron 6y ago
        Neat! Thank you for the correction.
      - feanaro 6y ago
        It's also worth noting that verification is much easier these days given that cross-signing has been implemented. Before you had to verify each pair of (sender, recipient) devices. This meant N*M verifications. Now you only need to verify a new device when you are setting it up and each new recipient when you start talking to them for the first time. So it's N+M verifications.
- luplex 6y ago
  The beauty of matrix is the interoperability: you can actually talk to other users on other servers, like email. You can join large public groups, too.
BugWatch 6y ago
While I love Matrix and support their mission, this pricing is quite a bit steep, as well as the 5-person limit being too restricting. They will price out large majority of people who actually could/would want to switch.
- HolidayHuckle 6y ago
  Hi - Yep, we totally get that this won't be for everyone. We're currently looking for ways to be able to increase the efficiency of these smaller servers and to be able to pass those cost reductions on to customers. We've also got some projects in the works aimed at being able to offer single account / single user "homeservers" and obviously the pricing for these would be much lower, but we're not quite there yet. More info. on this as soon as we have it. In case it's not clear, it isn't a 5 person limit for Element Home servers, it's just that up to 5 (active) users are included in your subscription. You can add more users at any time for an additional $2/month. Also bear in mind that you're not charged for everyone registered on your homserver, just the ones that are using it :) (I head up Element Matrix Services / EMS)
  - crazypython 6y ago
    What hosting provider are you using? AWS, GCP, and Azure are several times more expensive with the same performance as smaller providers, of which DigitalOcean provides the worst performance. (50% less) https://vpsbenchmarks.com https://vpsbenchmarks.com
    - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
      Currently we're using AWS (but we're hoping to become more cloud agnostic in the future). (I head up Element Matrix Services)
      - crazypython 6y ago
        > Currently we're using AWS (but we're hoping to become more cloud agnostic in the future). If you're not using Lightsail, you're overpaying. Look at this comparison: https://www.vpsbenchmarks.com/compare/ec2_vs_vultr https://www.vpsbenchmarks.com/compare/ec2_vs_vultr AWS bandwidth through anything but Lightsail is 1000 times more expensive. AWS servers are 3-5x more expensive. AWS isn't successful because it's good, it's successful because it has good marketing. Look at OVH and Linode. Is Element hiring, by the way? Here's a look at my skills, if you're interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26305569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26305569
sneak 6y ago
> You can just enjoy the fact you know you chose someone you trust (us!) with your data. Isn't the point of decentralization that I don't have to choose some centralized party to trust?
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  You can pick another Matrix host if you want, if there are any. Element being the first to host the services they develop commercially makes sense. If another Matrix host stand up, you're free to go with their competitor instead and still chat with the same people. The biggest downside of this kind of hosted service is that they use subdomains of their own service. That means that you can't take your exact username to another service if you do end up switching. For most people, this makes switching from Element Home to something else as much of a problem as switching from Whatsapp to Signal. The same is true for other federated services like email, of course, but the service would be a lot more portable if, for example, you could buy a domain, have the folks at Element set up the necessary DNS config (they can require one particular domain provider for their API services for all I care), and then later be able to switch to another host with the same contacts, usernames and services. Because of data portability laws, Element is forced to make this possible in the EU anyway, so it might as well be a feature of the Matrix ecosystem to be able to transfer your domains and accounts without hassle.
- Kinrany 6y ago
  Generally it's enough to have multiple providers with equivalent offerings and near-zero costs of switching and starting your own provider
adamcstephens 6y ago
I got excited for a cheaper offering when I saw the headline. If I was wanting to pay $10/month that was already an option. Sadly this is just marketing and not anything more appealing.
adidalal 6y ago
For those interested in self-hosting the home server, I would recommend https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy - the documentation is fantastic and it’s very well maintained.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  I'm personally waiting for Dendrite. Apparently the beta is usable now, setting it up has been on my to-do list.
  - 40four 6y ago
    I self host Synapse for personal use, what are the expected benefits of Dendrite? Is it mostly the performance gain of Go versus Python, or are there other reasons to be looking forward to Dendrite?
- jaggs 6y ago
  The minute you mention Github, you lose 98% of human beings? This is clearly aimed at those who just want something to work out of the box, surely? HN is not the target audience I guess.
- kenmacd 6y ago
  My main issue with self-hosting has been federation bandwidth requirements. I joined the very quiet `#homeowners:matrix.org` announcement room, but because almost 600 other people are in there my server was inundated with presence messages (just in case I wanted to know which of those 600 were online right now). Oh, and there's no way to prevent receiving these messages. They arrive on the same endpoint as non-presence messages, and you can't signal to the sender to stop sending them.
  - gen3 6y ago
    I’ve been hosting my own matrix server for just a few months now. I have a small handful of users. Bandwidth hasn’t been a problem for me, as I’ve only served 5GB in the last 30 days. It’s the sheer number of requests that the server handles that I find staggering. In the last 30 days, my server has handled 1.3mm requests! It seems like everything polls for data, which I see as wasteful. I recently saw they were adding socket support in a recent MSC... hopefully that will help.
crazypython 6y ago
I have one large concern with this. It's not a FLOSS service, it's SSaaS. Let me explain. While Matrix is open-source, Element Matrix hosting gives you no option to modify the source code, not letting you install add-ons or modifications. There's no way to say, "Hey, check out this cool chat patch, just install it on your homeserver!" With proprietary service, if you want a feature, all you can do is say, "Ugh, I wish they would add it." With a freedom-respecting service, you could just hire someone to add it. Therefore, EMS is not a freedom-respecting service. It's as freedom-respecting as proprietary ElasticSearch. The headline explains that it violates the most fundamental principle of free software: - The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). It does not even attempt to give you this freedom: - The freedom to... change the program so it does your computing as you wish. OSS that's not FLOSS doesn't have any of the ethical benefits: A locked-down Android phone is "open-source" but not free software, as you can't modify it. There should be a way to be able to upload patches onto your server. If corruption ensues, Element Matrix Services should not be held responsible. Let users be responsible for their software! Stop treating them like babies. It also generally makes it much harder for open-source contributors to experiment, as you must go through a centralized repo to gain adoption.
- miloignis 6y ago
  It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS. If you want to be able to patch and change and manage the running homeserver, than you're just manually managing the homeserver, which would be self-hosting! Which is a great thing to do, but then there's no point in buying this service, just rent a VPS. The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you totally can. People running their own homeserver are very much first-class citizens on the Matrix network, and managing it yourself is cheaper. The extra expense here is entirely to get them to manage it for you, which seems to be the opposite of what you want.
  - crazypython 6y ago
    > The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you totally can. I want them to manage it and also let me upload patches. I want the setup, DNS, storage, hosting, all the sysadmin stuff... and still be able to patch the software. I want them to be able to `git pull` an update over my patches, and have it carry forward after updates. I want the agency of FOSS but still pay for the management, simply put. > It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS. I can't modify the software, so it's not free software. If they provided some sort of "patch app store" or patch download, it would be free software.
tssva 6y ago
I find the chart presented to be very deceptive with regards to "Own your data" and Signal. It implies that the Signal servers store your messages and other data which they do not.
- Vinnl 6y ago
  AFAIK they do, just not in a way that anyone but the sender and receiver(s) can read.
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    Encrypted messages are stored on their servers only until they are delivered, and then deleted. From their privacy policy: Messages. Signal cannot decrypt or otherwise access the content of your messages or calls. Signal queues end-to-end encrypted messages on its servers for delivery to devices that are temporarily offline (e.g. a phone whose battery has died). Your message history is stored on your own devices. Additional technical information is stored on our servers, including randomly generated authentication tokens, keys, push tokens, and other material that is necessary to establish calls and transmit messages. Signal limits this additional technical information to the minimum required to operate the Services.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Vinnl 6y ago
      That's good nuance; not what I'd understand as "not storing it on their servers", but really the best you could want, IMHO.
adkadskhj 6y ago
Question for anyone in-the-know of Matrix: I'm toying with using Matrix or IPFS (my two primary interests atm) as a .. P2P layer. Which is to say, i have an app that shuttles thousands of byte chunks between instances of this app, and i need something in that network layer to do the shuttling. I of course could just use a centralized SSH server, but Matrix and IPFS both have be interested as alternatives. With that said, doing this in Matrix would involve sending quite a bit of volume through Matrix. double digit GiBs of data every month in 10KiB chunks. Would using hosting Matrix be bad for this purpose? I could of course self host, but A: i'd like to support Matrix, and B: if this is kosher i'd rather give Matrix my money, than give a VPS my money. Does Element Home limit message sizes or message counts? Does it throttle? Caps would be bad for me (potentially), but throttling would be fine. I just don't want to abuse Matrix, and i'd like to support them with money i'm spending in this use case.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Depending on the data, it sounds like it might be more a job for IPFS. Matrix is best for passing around histories of JSON blobs no larger than 65KB. Whereas it sounds like you might be manipulating files rather than data objects? Element Home doesn't have traffic limits currently, but all Matrix has rate limits (a few messages/s) to prevent flooding.
  - adkadskhj 6y ago
    The bytes i refer to are immutable blobs, the content in an immutable content store. IPFS would hypothetically work fine, my only concern is having too much needless history. Eg, once all clients are up to date the history could be pruned. There would be basically no need to store weeks/months old data, as i'd be just using Matrix for P2P not storage. (just replying for posterity)
- e12e 6y ago
  You might find this recent (discussion and submission) interesting if you missed it: Show HN: Hummingbard – decentralized communities built on Matrix https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26277602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26277602
40four 6y ago
This sounds cool for non-technical people, who don't have the skills to setup their own self hosted Synapse &/or Element server. Let's be real, for folks who don't frequent HN, that's just about everyone. Seems like a good option for them, and a good way for Matrix to generate income. Great news as far as I'm concerned! Sounds like some are complaining about the price, but it seems more than fair to me. Heck, I host my own Synapse instance, but I might consider this in the future. Not that the maintenance is a problem, I don't think I've had to touch it since I set it up. But it might be worth it to not ever have to go in and do upgrades, or worry about something going wrong.
vlmutolo 6y ago
The only thing stopping me from moving away from the matrix.org homeserver is the fact that I already have an account and chats there. Sure, I could rejoin all my rooms from a new account on a different homeserver. But that’s not exactly an elegant solution. I’m looking forward to when account migration is a solved problem. That’s one of the more impressive and daunting parts of the Matrix spec that I’ve seen.
yencabulator 6y ago
> memorable Matrix IDs such as @yourfirstname:yoursurname.ems.host Nobody outside of tech will agree with that. Multiple kinds of punctuation, "ems", ".host", and so on.

215 points by decrypt 6y ago

1MachineElf 6y ago

I would gladly pay $10/month to support Element and Matrix.

regnerba 6y ago
So why don't you?
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  As you probably saw in the blog post, the ability to do this is currently only offered via the desktop app, which I do not use. I only use the web interface, the Android app, and a non-Element matrix client. Element said in the blog post that it will add this option to the Android app, and once it does, I will use it and subscribe. Hopefully that answers your question.
  - decrypt 6y ago
    Accounts on their Element Home plan can work on Android and iOS apps too. It's just that copying over data from a different homeserver to this new homeserver is possible only on the desktop app at the moment.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      The ability to copy traffic history from one homeserver to another is a huge deal. I have not succeeded in discovering any details of this rollout. What server versions support it? Does it suffice to copy using one client, once, and then all clients see the result? Or, only after pointing those other clients at the new server? Do the other clients only see old traffic, after, until they are switched over, too? How can I have more thsn one homeserver watched? Do I need to run N independent client apps (e.g. Element and Fluffychat), with each pointed at one homeserver? It is very hard to find out any details of what is handled where in Matrix. Nobody in rooms devoted to services acknowledges questions, never mind answering any.
    - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
      As you rightly say, you can use any client for Element Home and the only restriction is that the in-app setup and migration wizard is only available in the Element web clients at the moment (this is now corrected in the blog article). That said, the Matrix->Matrix migration tools (https://ems.element.io/tools/matrix-migration https://ems.element.io/tools/matrix-migration) can be used outside of the setup flow, to help migrate your existing chats to new accounts. So people can always use those separately from host setup, if needed.
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    The Element desktop app SEGFAULTs on startup when I run it on Debian (partly "unstable", like everybody). Curiously, a prior version used to work, and then recently started crashing with no apparent changes, and still crashes apparently the same way after upgrading to the latest release. It is possible that one of its 100+ library dependencies updated, and Element depends on behavior not retained. I have not dug into where it crashes, yet. Element rooms have got so slow, lately, I hardly use it anymore. Nobody will say who is responsible. The room owner? My homeserver? Others' homeservers? Matrix.org? All I ever see is the spinner, with no hint as to what or who it is waiting on, or any way evident to ever find out. On the Android app, meanwhile, rooms have taken to keeping a series of one or more very old messages always displayed at the bottom where current messages are supposed to be, taking up as much as half the screen, thus far. It also makes a noise every 30 seconds that I cannot turn off, spamming my notifications log to tell me it has polled its server again. I have found that force-killing the app makes this go away. I don't know if this makes it unable to alert me to timely messages from others on my homeserver. The constant noises make it hard to care. Fluffychat has the same noise problems, so the notification spam is probably in the client library. The sticky ancient message problem is only in Android Element.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      Strace says Desktop Element crashes after a series of calls to recvmsg; one returns 32 bytes, then four fail with EAGAIN. Gdb says SIGSEGV at 0x000055555a03b652, which points into /usr/bin/element-desktop, v1.7.21 from packages.riot.im/debian/. So, probably not a dependency.
      - Arathorn 6y ago
        Looking on Element Web/Desktop's issue tracker: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=is%3Aissue+segfault https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=is%3Aissue... there are no open issues concerning segfaults currently. If you file a bug report with the details requested in the template then we'll be able to investigate and fix it, just as we did for https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/13553 https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/13553 (for instance). Otherwise, expecting us to be aware of this and to fix it without a bug report is not going to happen. In terms of "slow rooms" - we'd need more details to advise. A bug report on github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues would give us something to go on. In terms of stuck messages on Element Android - this sounds like a bug which was fixed months ago. Please upgrade. In terms of getting a notification every time the app syncs - I have no idea what would cause that, nor have I heard of it. Please file a bug at https://github.com/vector-im/element-android/issues https://github.com/vector-im/element-android/issues.
  - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
    Ahh... thanks for pointing that out. That was a mistake in the blog article (fixed now). In fact the migrator only works on the web apps at the moment (not desktop or mobile). That said, even if the in-app migrator isn't available to other clients, people are obviously free to set up Element Nickel or Home direct from the website.
Esras 6y ago
If you (or anyone else reading this) are okay with Patreon, they do have one at https://www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg https://www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg. If you don't like Patreon for some reason, they are also on Liberapay, PayPal, and accept BTC and ETH. They have some minor benefits and flair, although the page hasn't been updated in awhile, so I don't know how many are still valid.
- derin 6y ago
  I was on their Patreon for a while, but had to hop off because of financial fun. Sadly none of the rewards are updated and the flair is no longer given out; at this point it makes sense to just see it as a donation.
  - kitkat_new 6y ago
    Actually, the flair still seems to be given out.
    - derin 6y ago
      Guess I was just skipped, then. C'est la vie - still a great project, and one worth sponsoring if you can (IMO).

regnerba 6y ago

Why home vs nickle? Nickle seems to be the same with the addition of your own DNS for the same price.

1MachineElf 6y ago
What you are referencing sounds interesting. Would you please provide a link with more information? Googling "nickle matrix" does not yeild useful results, and it's even worse for "nickle element"
- decrypt 6y ago
  Nickel is one of their existing plans, and Home is their new plan. Both offer the same features, except that Nickel offers an ability to use custom domains and is aimed at businesses. More on their pricing page [1] [1] https://element.io/pricing https://element.io/pricing
  - estaseuropano 6y ago
    It looks like Nickel is $2/user, with a minimum of $10. So for a family a fixed $10 is probably the smarter choice, rather than to have $2 more for every user added. EDIT: it seems Home is limited to 5 users, which means it's actually the same price. May i ask what would be the benefit of having your own DNS? I don't understand what your average group chat would gain...
    - decrypt 6y ago
      The primary and only advantage that I can think of is, personalized addresses. It's better to have one's address as `@james:potter.family` instead of `@james:potter.ems.host`, where `potter.family` is my custom domain.
    - emaro 6y ago
      Maybe your own domain. In the home expamples all usernames are `@name:subdomain.ems.host`.
    - 6y ago

estaseuropano 6y ago

The day the element and jitsi projects marry and offer a single $10 plan for secure chat and group video all the commercial providers can pack up... But I fear the day may never come.

zaik 6y ago
I think Jitsi is build on XMPP for chat right? XMPP already offers federated and e2ee chat.
kitkat_new 6y ago
Element has group video calls using Jitsi integrated

gorgonzolachz 6y ago

This seems like a great move forward for Element, looks like this is angling to replace the New Vector offering they had a while back? The pricing is certainly odd, though. For 5 bucks a month I run my own server with almost a dozen folks on it, which requires basically zero maintenance (I can count the number of times I've had to go in and restart it over the past two years on one hand). Double that for a limit of 5 users (with another $2/user surcharge) is high for what I'd expect is a logical separation of tenants under the hood. I know some of the Matrix folks pop in to HN threads from time to time, and I'll readily admit my woeful inexperience in all things business. That said, could someone enlighten me as to how the pricing strategy was determined? It seems like the better route would have been to create an obscenely cheap plan on the low end for groups/families and push for enterprise adoption (perhaps even with increased prices, $75/mo for 25 users seems on the low end at first glance). Edit: Just re-read the first paragraph and caught this: "You can just enjoy the fact you know you chose someone you trust (us!) with your data." The whole reason I'm using element is because I don't trust anyone else with my data & social connections, and so I'd like to own as much of that scope as possible. I'm sure it's just a poorly worded marketing zinger, but it's unfortunate nonetheless.

anotherboffin 6y ago
I also think the explanation could use a bit of work. If I have more than 5 users, do I need to switch to Nickel? Get another Home plan?
- HolidayHuckle 6y ago
  Up to 5 Monthly Active Users are included in your subscription. After that you can add additional users at an additional $2 per user per month. It's worth noting that the Monthly Active bit can be quite important. What this means is that you're not charged for the number of users registered on your server, but the number who are actively using the server. Users are only considered as "active" and counting towards the number that you pay for if they use the account for more than two days in a rolling 30 day period. The aim here is that you're not penalised for occasional or "drive-by" users of the service. (Disclaimer -- I head up EMS (Element Matrix Services))

pedro2 6y ago

This is probably a stab at BeeperHQ, judging by the price.

kitkat_new 6y ago
Hasn't this offer already been existing for a while?
- pedro2 6y ago
  Maybe. If so, I wasn’t aware. I always thought the cheapest plan was pricier than €10.
erohead 6y ago
I chat with Arathorn pretty regularly and I'm quite sure that we're not competitors, at least not yet . Beeper is focused in hosting and maintaining bridges between Matrix and other networks. EMS is vanilla Matrix hosting.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Work on Element Home predates Beeper's launch by a few months, and is in no way a response to it. EMS does have some paid bridges too, but the emphasis is on the Matrix rather than the bridging, unlike Beeper.

luplex 6y ago

Good stuff! Now we just need to get the cost down. I got email hosting for free with my domain, that's the price point I would like for Matrix, too.

decrypt 6y ago
May I ask which registrar it is? The ones I know only offer email forwarding for free, not a full-fledged email account.
- illuminated 6y ago
  Not OP, but I'm getting the same from Gandi [0]. [0] https://gandi.net/ https://gandi.net/
- luplex 6y ago
  It's Strato.de Depending on the specific package, I get 1-unlimited email accounts on my new domain

vbezhenar 6y ago

"Dedicated server" mentioned 4 times in that article. In hosting world, dedicated server means real physical server. I wonder if that's just marketing speak and in reality it's virtual server or they really install a separate server for every customer.

jtsiskin 6y ago
Its $10 a month - unless they're using raspberry pi's, I think you can assume virtual servers.
its-summertime 6y ago
server as in the server daemon, not server as in the physical server.
- readflaggedcomm 6y ago
  I would phrase that as 'server instance.' Their language like "you’re sharing minimal infrastructure with anyone else" does reinforce the idea they mean physical server. Maybe "dedicated" and "infrastructure" are being abstracted into meaninglessness as cloud computing matures.
  - JimDabell 6y ago
    “Fully managed, dedicated server” absolutely means that you get your own hardware. If they are using it to mean a virtual server, that seems incredibly dishonest to me.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      Agree.
privacyonsec 6y ago
they could have used "personal server" instead ?
6y ago

neiman 6y ago

Could anyone TL;DR this? I honestly struggle with understanding what exactly is the offer.

foobar33333 6y ago
You get your own instance of the matrix server to use which is faster than the shared free instance. Saves you from having to host it yourself.
e12e 6y ago
Imagine if you paid for email accounts - this is like paying 10usd/month for up to 5 email accounts (with eg fastmail). Only its not email, but text/voice/video/group chat.

teruakohatu 6y ago

I believe they are asking twice as much as they should be. Hear me out. At $1/month/user, they would make $12/user/year. I would say most people have extended ~10-20 family members they communicate with, at $20 -$40/month on the lowest priced plan, that would be a fair expenditure that would fall on one family member, because trying to get everyone to chip in if usually unrealistic. Now outside of the USA it begins to get really expensive. If they could offer it at $1/month, they would have significantly greater uptake. As for the bandwidth and hosting costs, are they not paying for that anyway through the default Matrix server? I get they want to make money from businesses, but they are pricing out a lot of families who have Facebook-fatige.

azornathogron 6y ago
I agree. They're competing against free services. For many if not most family-and-friend groups there will only be one person knowledgeable about matrix and actively interested in using it (there might be more interested in using "something that's not Facebook", but matrix isn't the only option there). This needs to be priced low enough that one person can buy it without thinking and get their family and some friends on the thing. Maybe start at $40/year or $25/six months, up to 15 accounts. Pay six months or a year to start so there's no subscription, then give an option to pay for another block or switch to monthly. Also needs to include bring-your-own-domain (ie, let the customer point DNS at the service), because if you're interested in matrix and want to have your own homeserver then you know you also want to properly own the domain to avoid being locked into a particular hosting provider. (All just my opinion, I have no relevant experience, etc etc)

pimeys 6y ago

Does this include all the bridges? So the users of the instance can combine other platforms to the same app, such as signal, instagram, twitter, whatsapp, irc, telegram and all that?

kevincox 6y ago
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But my real question is can you run your own bridges with this homeserver?
ibraheemdev 6y ago
Is there a whatsapp bridge?
- kitkat_new 6y ago
  Yes, but it is not being offered as a hosted service atm: https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-whatsapp https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-whatsapp https://element.io/element-matrix-store https://element.io/element-matrix-store
  - upofadown 6y ago
    You would not want some sort of popular Whatsapp bridge. That would an easy target for Facebook. It would likely be blocked. Better for everyone to run their own bridges...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

SecurityLagoon 6y ago

Is that the only base domain? ems.host (I assume element matrix service?) is so uninspired and sounds like a back end domain rather than what you want your identity tied to. Could they not have gone with something a bit more catchy and on brand?

Tepix 6y ago
Well i haven't really gotten used to the name "Element" yet, it's as bland as it gets.
- bogwog 6y ago
  And vague. At least "Telegram", "Signal", and "Whatsapp" suggest that they have something to do with communication, whereas neither "Element" nor its logo/icon suggest what it is. Unless they know what it is already, most people would probably scroll past it, assuming it's like a boring CRM thing or crappy drop-shipping store or whatever. But I guess it's too late for them to reverse that decision. Maybe the logo will change, but the name is probably here to stay.

plainoldcheese 6y ago

not sure i understood from the article, is this supposed ot host a server locally on your device rather than use someone elses server? (that would make it function almost like a peer to peer system.) or is it just a way for them to market their own hosting for matrix servers?

ucha 6y ago

Back when WhatsApp's business model relied on subscriptions rather than ads, it sold for $1/year. What justifies this being 120x more expensive? Is it just economies of scale?

mariusor 6y ago
WhatsApp was selling you access to your account. Element is selling you access to an instance which you can share with as many users as you want.
- ucha 6y ago
  The pricing page says you can only share it with 5 users for the $10/month package. Am I missing something?
  - mariusor 6y ago
    You are right, apologies. :) x24 more than WhatsApp for the benefit of being sure your data doesn't fall into third party hands, that's for you to decide if it's enough.
    - dtx1 6y ago
      "your data" falls into at least elements and aws hands with this. Yeah the content is encrypted but there's lots of metadata to grab by malicous actors. The reality is 10$ for 25 Users would have been more reasonable. Enough to setup a server for your family and close friends.

zaggynl 6y ago

The terms of service are interesting: > This agreement does not apply to Matrix servers run by anyone else - Matrix is an open network like the Web and this agreement only applies to the server provisioned by the Customer and provided by Element. What do other Matrix servers matter to my hypothetical Element Home server or my selfhosted matrix-synapse server? >The Customer must ensure that all Authorised Users are at least 16 (sixteen) years old to use both our Hosting and Communication Services or such greater age required in their country to register for or use our Hosting and Communication Services. So no using it with your younger family or school for example? I appreciate a service being offered but would prefer a solution that enables an out of the box package for self hosted consumer NAS systems. Maybe something to provide dyndns, a domain and a quick setup.

callahad 6y ago
> What do other Matrix servers matter to my hypothetical Element Home server or my selfhosted matrix-synapse server? Matrix is federated, like email. Once you send a message to someone on another server, what happens to it is out of your / your server's control. (E.g., Google's Terms of Service apply to Gmail, but you can use Gmail to send mail to someone at Yahoo... at which point it's beyond Google's reach.)

chacha2 6y ago

This would be insane for anyone outside of HN. $10 a month for a 5 person chat? They know everyone can get this free elsewhere for decades now? A 5 person Signal group would even have higher security.

feanaro 6y ago
> A 5 person Signal group would even have higher security. Why is it higher security?
- azornathogron 6y ago
  Fewer ways for it to be misconfigured? In Matrix you've got to remember to turn on the encryption, and verify each of your clients. At least that's my understanding, maybe that is out of date.
  - tffg 6y ago
    Encryption is on by default. In both cases you should verify.
    - azornathogron 6y ago
      Neat! Thank you for the correction.
    - feanaro 6y ago
      It's also worth noting that verification is much easier these days given that cross-signing has been implemented. Before you had to verify each pair of (sender, recipient) devices. This meant N*M verifications. Now you only need to verify a new device when you are setting it up and each new recipient when you start talking to them for the first time. So it's N+M verifications.
luplex 6y ago
The beauty of matrix is the interoperability: you can actually talk to other users on other servers, like email. You can join large public groups, too.

BugWatch 6y ago

While I love Matrix and support their mission, this pricing is quite a bit steep, as well as the 5-person limit being too restricting. They will price out large majority of people who actually could/would want to switch.

HolidayHuckle 6y ago
Hi - Yep, we totally get that this won't be for everyone. We're currently looking for ways to be able to increase the efficiency of these smaller servers and to be able to pass those cost reductions on to customers. We've also got some projects in the works aimed at being able to offer single account / single user "homeservers" and obviously the pricing for these would be much lower, but we're not quite there yet. More info. on this as soon as we have it. In case it's not clear, it isn't a 5 person limit for Element Home servers, it's just that up to 5 (active) users are included in your subscription. You can add more users at any time for an additional $2/month. Also bear in mind that you're not charged for everyone registered on your homserver, just the ones that are using it :) (I head up Element Matrix Services / EMS)
- crazypython 6y ago
  What hosting provider are you using? AWS, GCP, and Azure are several times more expensive with the same performance as smaller providers, of which DigitalOcean provides the worst performance. (50% less) https://vpsbenchmarks.com https://vpsbenchmarks.com
  - HolidayHuckle 6y ago
    Currently we're using AWS (but we're hoping to become more cloud agnostic in the future). (I head up Element Matrix Services)
    - crazypython 6y ago
      > Currently we're using AWS (but we're hoping to become more cloud agnostic in the future). If you're not using Lightsail, you're overpaying. Look at this comparison: https://www.vpsbenchmarks.com/compare/ec2_vs_vultr https://www.vpsbenchmarks.com/compare/ec2_vs_vultr AWS bandwidth through anything but Lightsail is 1000 times more expensive. AWS servers are 3-5x more expensive. AWS isn't successful because it's good, it's successful because it has good marketing. Look at OVH and Linode. Is Element hiring, by the way? Here's a look at my skills, if you're interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26305569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26305569

sneak 6y ago

> You can just enjoy the fact you know you chose someone you trust (us!) with your data. Isn't the point of decentralization that I don't have to choose some centralized party to trust?

jeroenhd 6y ago
You can pick another Matrix host if you want, if there are any. Element being the first to host the services they develop commercially makes sense. If another Matrix host stand up, you're free to go with their competitor instead and still chat with the same people. The biggest downside of this kind of hosted service is that they use subdomains of their own service. That means that you can't take your exact username to another service if you do end up switching. For most people, this makes switching from Element Home to something else as much of a problem as switching from Whatsapp to Signal. The same is true for other federated services like email, of course, but the service would be a lot more portable if, for example, you could buy a domain, have the folks at Element set up the necessary DNS config (they can require one particular domain provider for their API services for all I care), and then later be able to switch to another host with the same contacts, usernames and services. Because of data portability laws, Element is forced to make this possible in the EU anyway, so it might as well be a feature of the Matrix ecosystem to be able to transfer your domains and accounts without hassle.
Kinrany 6y ago
Generally it's enough to have multiple providers with equivalent offerings and near-zero costs of switching and starting your own provider

adamcstephens 6y ago

I got excited for a cheaper offering when I saw the headline. If I was wanting to pay $10/month that was already an option. Sadly this is just marketing and not anything more appealing.

adidalal 6y ago

For those interested in self-hosting the home server, I would recommend https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy - the documentation is fantastic and it’s very well maintained.

nerdponx 6y ago
I'm personally waiting for Dendrite. Apparently the beta is usable now, setting it up has been on my to-do list.
- 40four 6y ago
  I self host Synapse for personal use, what are the expected benefits of Dendrite? Is it mostly the performance gain of Go versus Python, or are there other reasons to be looking forward to Dendrite?
jaggs 6y ago
The minute you mention Github, you lose 98% of human beings? This is clearly aimed at those who just want something to work out of the box, surely? HN is not the target audience I guess.
kenmacd 6y ago
My main issue with self-hosting has been federation bandwidth requirements. I joined the very quiet `#homeowners:matrix.org` announcement room, but because almost 600 other people are in there my server was inundated with presence messages (just in case I wanted to know which of those 600 were online right now). Oh, and there's no way to prevent receiving these messages. They arrive on the same endpoint as non-presence messages, and you can't signal to the sender to stop sending them.
- gen3 6y ago
  I’ve been hosting my own matrix server for just a few months now. I have a small handful of users. Bandwidth hasn’t been a problem for me, as I’ve only served 5GB in the last 30 days. It’s the sheer number of requests that the server handles that I find staggering. In the last 30 days, my server has handled 1.3mm requests! It seems like everything polls for data, which I see as wasteful. I recently saw they were adding socket support in a recent MSC... hopefully that will help.

crazypython 6y ago

I have one large concern with this. It's not a FLOSS service, it's SSaaS. Let me explain. While Matrix is open-source, Element Matrix hosting gives you no option to modify the source code, not letting you install add-ons or modifications. There's no way to say, "Hey, check out this cool chat patch, just install it on your homeserver!" With proprietary service, if you want a feature, all you can do is say, "Ugh, I wish they would add it." With a freedom-respecting service, you could just hire someone to add it. Therefore, EMS is not a freedom-respecting service. It's as freedom-respecting as proprietary ElasticSearch. The headline explains that it violates the most fundamental principle of free software: - The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). It does not even attempt to give you this freedom: - The freedom to... change the program so it does your computing as you wish. OSS that's not FLOSS doesn't have any of the ethical benefits: A locked-down Android phone is "open-source" but not free software, as you can't modify it. There should be a way to be able to upload patches onto your server. If corruption ensues, Element Matrix Services should not be held responsible. Let users be responsible for their software! Stop treating them like babies. It also generally makes it much harder for open-source contributors to experiment, as you must go through a centralized repo to gain adoption.

miloignis 6y ago
It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS. If you want to be able to patch and change and manage the running homeserver, than you're just manually managing the homeserver, which would be self-hosting! Which is a great thing to do, but then there's no point in buying this service, just rent a VPS. The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you totally can. People running their own homeserver are very much first-class citizens on the Matrix network, and managing it yourself is cheaper. The extra expense here is entirely to get them to manage it for you, which seems to be the opposite of what you want.
- crazypython 6y ago
  > The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you totally can. I want them to manage it and also let me upload patches. I want the setup, DNS, storage, hosting, all the sysadmin stuff... and still be able to patch the software. I want them to be able to `git pull` an update over my patches, and have it carry forward after updates. I want the agency of FOSS but still pay for the management, simply put. > It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS. I can't modify the software, so it's not free software. If they provided some sort of "patch app store" or patch download, it would be free software.

tssva 6y ago

I find the chart presented to be very deceptive with regards to "Own your data" and Signal. It implies that the Signal servers store your messages and other data which they do not.

Vinnl 6y ago
AFAIK they do, just not in a way that anyone but the sender and receiver(s) can read.
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  Encrypted messages are stored on their servers only until they are delivered, and then deleted. From their privacy policy: Messages. Signal cannot decrypt or otherwise access the content of your messages or calls. Signal queues end-to-end encrypted messages on its servers for delivery to devices that are temporarily offline (e.g. a phone whose battery has died). Your message history is stored on your own devices. Additional technical information is stored on our servers, including randomly generated authentication tokens, keys, push tokens, and other material that is necessary to establish calls and transmit messages. Signal limits this additional technical information to the minimum required to operate the Services.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Vinnl 6y ago
    That's good nuance; not what I'd understand as "not storing it on their servers", but really the best you could want, IMHO.

adkadskhj 6y ago

Question for anyone in-the-know of Matrix: I'm toying with using Matrix or IPFS (my two primary interests atm) as a .. P2P layer. Which is to say, i have an app that shuttles thousands of byte chunks between instances of this app, and i need something in that network layer to do the shuttling. I of course could just use a centralized SSH server, but Matrix and IPFS both have be interested as alternatives. With that said, doing this in Matrix would involve sending quite a bit of volume through Matrix. double digit GiBs of data every month in 10KiB chunks. Would using hosting Matrix be bad for this purpose? I could of course self host, but A: i'd like to support Matrix, and B: if this is kosher i'd rather give Matrix my money, than give a VPS my money. Does Element Home limit message sizes or message counts? Does it throttle? Caps would be bad for me (potentially), but throttling would be fine. I just don't want to abuse Matrix, and i'd like to support them with money i'm spending in this use case.

Arathorn 6y ago
Depending on the data, it sounds like it might be more a job for IPFS. Matrix is best for passing around histories of JSON blobs no larger than 65KB. Whereas it sounds like you might be manipulating files rather than data objects? Element Home doesn't have traffic limits currently, but all Matrix has rate limits (a few messages/s) to prevent flooding.
- adkadskhj 6y ago
  The bytes i refer to are immutable blobs, the content in an immutable content store. IPFS would hypothetically work fine, my only concern is having too much needless history. Eg, once all clients are up to date the history could be pruned. There would be basically no need to store weeks/months old data, as i'd be just using Matrix for P2P not storage. (just replying for posterity)
e12e 6y ago
You might find this recent (discussion and submission) interesting if you missed it: Show HN: Hummingbard – decentralized communities built on Matrix https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26277602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26277602

40four 6y ago

This sounds cool for non-technical people, who don't have the skills to setup their own self hosted Synapse &/or Element server. Let's be real, for folks who don't frequent HN, that's just about everyone. Seems like a good option for them, and a good way for Matrix to generate income. Great news as far as I'm concerned! Sounds like some are complaining about the price, but it seems more than fair to me. Heck, I host my own Synapse instance, but I might consider this in the future. Not that the maintenance is a problem, I don't think I've had to touch it since I set it up. But it might be worth it to not ever have to go in and do upgrades, or worry about something going wrong.

vlmutolo 6y ago

The only thing stopping me from moving away from the matrix.org homeserver is the fact that I already have an account and chats there. Sure, I could rejoin all my rooms from a new account on a different homeserver. But that’s not exactly an elegant solution. I’m looking forward to when account migration is a solved problem. That’s one of the more impressive and daunting parts of the Matrix spec that I’ve seen.

yencabulator 6y ago

> memorable Matrix IDs such as @yourfirstname:yoursurname.ems.host Nobody outside of tech will agree with that. Multiple kinds of punctuation, "ems", ".host", and so on.