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I disagree their judgement was right - I think it was catastrophically wrong. there are some things that you can treat this way (let it blow over), but a report

I disagree their judgement was right - I think it was catastrophically wrong. there are some things that you can treat this way (let it blow over), but a reporter saying the n word to a group of high school kids is not one of them. the fact that it was only said in a question to clarify what someone meant, rather than than as a slur, is also wholly exculpatory - making the real story a complete non-issue. also, think about how it actually turned out -- their strategy completely backfired, insofar as it was actually intended to limit the pr damage of the story.

tsimionescu 6y ago
I for one had heard nothing of this story before seeing this article (though I'm neither a resident nor citizen of America, so this is not that meaningful). We also don't know what the story would have been had he apologized as they wanted (again, I'm not saying he had any obligation to do so! His reputation was rightfully more important to him than the desires of the NYT PR team). Also, I don't agree that the context is wholly exculpatory and makes this a complete non issue. He was wrong in using this type of language with this particular audience, even if in a NYT article it would have been perfectly acceptable. He was misunderstood by the teens and seemed shocking to them, despite how he (or I, or you) views his own words. It would have actually been right to apologize to them, as he clearly failed in communicating the nuance he was trying to communicate. That's not to say that he is a racist! But he obviously misjudged his audience and caused them more harm than good with his words, even if he had the best intentions behind them. Especially since he was payed to be there and teach them, this is not some case of some teens finding someone's blog and taking offense at what they think is being said there.
- chokolad 6y ago
  > But he obviously misjudged his audience and caused them more harm than good with his words, even if he had the best intentions behind them He said that people should not punish 15 year old for something she said said offhand, when she was 12 years old. How is that causing more harm than good ?
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    That is what he had intended to transmit, but it was clearly not the message that the audience received. Instead, the message they actually got from this conversation seems to have been more along the lines of 'this NYT reporter who is lecturing us about native ctures is throwing around the N word and claiming it's OK to use when he says it or something. This is uncomfortable and annoying'. If a class is just not learning from a teacher, both the class and the teacher share some of the blame. But since the teacher's job is to teach, and when the class is made up of children or teens, I always err on the side of accusing the teacher first. Again, not accusing them of Racism! Just of failing to create the understanding and environment they were supposed to create.
    - 1024core 6y ago
      > Instead, the message they actually got from this conversation seems to have been more along the lines of 'this NYT reporter who is lecturing us about native ctures is throwing around the N word and claiming it's OK to use when he says it or something. This is uncomfortable and annoying'. Only someone with limited thinking skills would come away with that message. I'm not white, nor did I grow up in America, so what the fuck do I know, eh?
      - tsimionescu 6y ago
        You're probably also not a teenager, which I think is the most important distinction.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      It's worth remembering that he was a journalist, not a teacher. I mean, he was acting as a teacher, but he was invited to do so because of his background as a journalist. He didn't have any pedagogical training. I do think it's relatively clear that something went wrong on that trip. Perhaps he should have been given more support from actual teachers, or perhaps he's just bad with kids and the position was always a terrible fit. But none of that should have significantly impacted his role at the Times, where mentoring teenagers was not a part of the job description.
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  he was NOT wrong, about anything.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    He probably did fail in communicating and creating the kind of environment for these kids that he was contracted to by the trip organizer company. He could have done well to apologize for this - the famous kind of non-apology we often complain about would have actually been appropriate here: 'I'm sorry you felt this way'. But that is the extent of his responsibility.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  I think we should not take the viewpoints of a bunch of over privileged white teenagers so seriously.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    Yes, we absolutely shouldn't. The reporter should have probably cared a little more, during the trip, as he had entered a contract to provide a certain kind of experience to these kids, and he clearly failed at that. But that is of no interest to anyone outside the two parties of this contract. And it absolutely does not make him a racist, or sexist, or colonialism apologist, or sexualizer of children or any of the things he has been apparently accused of.
    - notdonspaulding 6y ago
      > The reporter should have probably cared a little more, during the trip, as he had entered a contract to provide a certain kind of experience to these kids, and he clearly failed at that. I'm not sure he "clearly failed at" providing "a certain kind of experience to these kids". The program sounds like a way for rich families to give their teenage children an international learning adventure trip with close exposure to world-wise adults. The focus of this trip was on rural health and included shaman rituals and hiking around Macchu Pichu. These teenagers intellectually engaged a decades-long journalist and it sounds like he was giving them a masterclass in critical thinking. That they were unprepared to have their thoughts contradicted is a sign of something else, but not his failure to help guide them through an adventure trip on rural health.

tsimionescu 6y ago

I for one had heard nothing of this story before seeing this article (though I'm neither a resident nor citizen of America, so this is not that meaningful). We also don't know what the story would have been had he apologized as they wanted (again, I'm not saying he had any obligation to do so! His reputation was rightfully more important to him than the desires of the NYT PR team). Also, I don't agree that the context is wholly exculpatory and makes this a complete non issue. He was wrong in using this type of language with this particular audience, even if in a NYT article it would have been perfectly acceptable. He was misunderstood by the teens and seemed shocking to them, despite how he (or I, or you) views his own words. It would have actually been right to apologize to them, as he clearly failed in communicating the nuance he was trying to communicate. That's not to say that he is a racist! But he obviously misjudged his audience and caused them more harm than good with his words, even if he had the best intentions behind them. Especially since he was payed to be there and teach them, this is not some case of some teens finding someone's blog and taking offense at what they think is being said there.

chokolad 6y ago
> But he obviously misjudged his audience and caused them more harm than good with his words, even if he had the best intentions behind them He said that people should not punish 15 year old for something she said said offhand, when she was 12 years old. How is that causing more harm than good ?
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  That is what he had intended to transmit, but it was clearly not the message that the audience received. Instead, the message they actually got from this conversation seems to have been more along the lines of 'this NYT reporter who is lecturing us about native ctures is throwing around the N word and claiming it's OK to use when he says it or something. This is uncomfortable and annoying'. If a class is just not learning from a teacher, both the class and the teacher share some of the blame. But since the teacher's job is to teach, and when the class is made up of children or teens, I always err on the side of accusing the teacher first. Again, not accusing them of Racism! Just of failing to create the understanding and environment they were supposed to create.
  - 1024core 6y ago
    > Instead, the message they actually got from this conversation seems to have been more along the lines of 'this NYT reporter who is lecturing us about native ctures is throwing around the N word and claiming it's OK to use when he says it or something. This is uncomfortable and annoying'. Only someone with limited thinking skills would come away with that message. I'm not white, nor did I grow up in America, so what the fuck do I know, eh?
    - tsimionescu 6y ago
      You're probably also not a teenager, which I think is the most important distinction.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    It's worth remembering that he was a journalist, not a teacher. I mean, he was acting as a teacher, but he was invited to do so because of his background as a journalist. He didn't have any pedagogical training. I do think it's relatively clear that something went wrong on that trip. Perhaps he should have been given more support from actual teachers, or perhaps he's just bad with kids and the position was always a terrible fit. But none of that should have significantly impacted his role at the Times, where mentoring teenagers was not a part of the job description.
gameswithgo 6y ago
he was NOT wrong, about anything.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  He probably did fail in communicating and creating the kind of environment for these kids that he was contracted to by the trip organizer company. He could have done well to apologize for this - the famous kind of non-apology we often complain about would have actually been appropriate here: 'I'm sorry you felt this way'. But that is the extent of his responsibility.
jimbokun 6y ago
I think we should not take the viewpoints of a bunch of over privileged white teenagers so seriously.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Yes, we absolutely shouldn't. The reporter should have probably cared a little more, during the trip, as he had entered a contract to provide a certain kind of experience to these kids, and he clearly failed at that. But that is of no interest to anyone outside the two parties of this contract. And it absolutely does not make him a racist, or sexist, or colonialism apologist, or sexualizer of children or any of the things he has been apparently accused of.
  - notdonspaulding 6y ago
    > The reporter should have probably cared a little more, during the trip, as he had entered a contract to provide a certain kind of experience to these kids, and he clearly failed at that. I'm not sure he "clearly failed at" providing "a certain kind of experience to these kids". The program sounds like a way for rich families to give their teenage children an international learning adventure trip with close exposure to world-wise adults. The focus of this trip was on rural health and included shaman rituals and hiking around Macchu Pichu. These teenagers intellectually engaged a decades-long journalist and it sounds like he was giving them a masterclass in critical thinking. That they were unprepared to have their thoughts contradicted is a sign of something else, but not his failure to help guide them through an adventure trip on rural health.