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Tesla voids warranty if you try to power your home with your car

75 points by Corrado 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sschueller 6y ago
Seems fair even if I don't agree that Tesla is looking through Facebook to void warranies. I don't think any other car maker will warranty an abused 12v battery.
- kop316 6y ago
  While I agree with your conclusion, I would argue how you got there is a bit faulty. EDIT: I misead the article. I don't necessarily think Tesla is in the right about this, especially voiding your whole warrenty. Car Maker's typically don't make the 12v battery, some third party does, and the warrenty is typically through the third party. A typical 12v car battery is also lead acid, and a lead acid battery behaves radically different as comapred to the lithum batteries with charging and discharging, and lead acid batteries age differently too. I would have no problem "abusing" a 12v lead acid battery (and there are plenty of sites out there to show how to store energy for your home using them), but I would not want to attempt that with a lithium battery. Why? Without the proper charging/discharging circuitry, those things can catch fire (thermal runaway), and that can't happen on a lead acid battery. However, I would argue that due to the aging of the battery combined with the danger of adding third party discharging circuitry, I would agree that this would void the warrenty, as I would imagine the car cannot now monitor the aging of the battery now. I would not be happy to get a used tesle to know that the battery is significantly more aged than what is reported. EDIT: I apperently misread the article, and assumed the inverter was being hooked up into the Tesla battery, but Tesla has a 12v lead acid battery. Re-reading the article, I am actually surprised about this now. Tesla is voiding the warrenty from using the 12v lead acid battery, NOT the primary lithium battery. This may actually be illegal under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
  - derekp7 6y ago
    Lead acid batteries can explode though. The one hooked to the backup sump pump in my parents' house had went kaboom when I was a kid, scared the crap out of me (quite literally in this case).
    - kop316 6y ago
      Was this an old lead acid battery (I ask because you say "when you were a kid")? That was more common in ones where they were not sealed, and you had to add water to it occasionally. Modern lead acid ones are completely sealed, and should not have that issue.
      - jsight 6y ago
        Modern lead acid batteries can still vent hydrogen, which can be a risk in an enclosed space.
        kop316 6y ago
        Interesting, I did not know that. thank you!
      - derekp7 6y ago
        Yes, it was back in the 80's. But even as recently as a year ago I was looking at backup sump pumps, and the ones at the local big box store had the lead battery separate, plus you had to buy the acid in a separate bottle that you add in with distilled water. I do recall that the battery was split open and its guts had hit the ceiling.
    - dreamcompiler 6y ago
      That was because it vented hydrogen in an enclosed space; the lead itself didn't explode.
      - derekp7 6y ago
        Of course the lead didn't explode, that is why I said the battery exploded.
craig1f 6y ago
Tesla monitors battery degradation based on miles driven. If you use your battery as a stationary power source, it messes up their ability to anticipate degradation. So it makes sense. This is, from the warranty's point of view, the same as manipulating the odometer on an ICE car to make it appear to have driven fewer miles than it actually has.
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  > This is, from the warranty's point of view, the same as manipulating the odometer on an ICE car to make it appear to have driven fewer miles than it actually has. Your first paragraph is spot-on, but your second claim couldn’t be more wrong. It’s akin to powering your home off your ICE car’s alternator and an inverter which wouldn’t register as miles driven on the odometer.
  - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
    It's also why a lot of trucks now display IDLE run hours on the engine in addition to in motion/drive hours.
    - protomyth 6y ago
      In addition, Ford added a whole electric generator solution https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a32970167/f-150-generator-pro-power-onboard/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a329701...
- caturopath 6y ago
  > the same as manipulating the odometer on an ICE car to make it appear to have driven fewer miles than it actually has Well, no, this is the same as running your ICE car a lot without driving it. (Which is actually common for some ways people use cars.) Some cars and all-ish heavy machinery count the amount of time the engine is running. (It's not common for cars to base their warranties on this, but only calendar time and miles, as far as I know.)
chomp 6y ago
I mean, shouldn't they? It's a car, go get the LG RESU or Powerwall if you want to power your home with a battery.
xhkkffbf 6y ago
> Tesla’s warranty states that you can’t use your vehicle “as a stationary power source.” This reminds me of "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" and how Bueller jacked the car up to run the odometer in reverse. If we prop up the rear wheels, how fast do we have to spin the wheels to qualify as non-stationary?
- jaywalk 6y ago
  And then they'll start correlating torque with battery usage.
  - cronix 6y ago
    Would they be able to tell if you used a dyno? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqFWvAplIKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqFWvAplIKc
    - jaywalk 6y ago
      I'm sure they could, because the load on the battery still wouldn't match the torque being delivered by the motors.
everdrive 6y ago
All the Tesla monitoring makes me nervous in general, however I do feel that Tesla is within their rights to void warranty here. Ideally this would ONLY void the warrant on the battery, and any other affected system. ie, if you ruin your battery this way, but your brakes fail, ideally you could get warranty service.
- 1-6 6y ago
  If Tesla voided the warranty after investigating what happened reading the ODB2, that's one thing. If they voided the warranty over-the-air, that's more concerning.
kop316 6y ago
EDIT 2: As a few folks have pointed out, it is hard to tell based on the article if the warrenty was denied to the entire car, or just the lead acid battery. So I misread the article at first. This is not a person trying to hook up a power source to the primary Lithium Battery, it is someone hooking up an inverter to a 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has. While I would agree that hooking up an inverter to the primary battery is one thing, voiding the warrenty for hooking up an inverter to the lead acid battery is entirely different, and I would be furious if a dealer tried to void a warrenty on my car based on a $100 car battery. I actually wonder if what they are doing is illegal under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. What likely happened is that the inverter deeply discharged the lead acid battery, tripping the flag in the car. As an FYI, what you can do if you do this occurs is bring it to an auto parts store, they can inspect your battery to tell you if it is still good, (this is usually a free service), recharge your battery (I have often got it for free, but sometimes it's like a 5$ fee), and if the battery isn't old, that will fix it. EDIT: if you want to read the act, it is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130317083941/http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C50.txt https://web.archive.org/web/20130317083941/http://uscode.hou... But in reading here: https://apb-law.com/understanding-magnuson-moss-act-relates-aftermarket-car-parts/ https://apb-law.com/understanding-magnuson-moss-act-relates-... I actually think what Tesla is doing is in fact illegal.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has Why do Teslas still have these wet batteries, do you know? Also, does the Tesla not have a standard wall socket in it? Why would you need to use an inverter?
  - crowbahr 6y ago
    Because they have a prewarm system and 12v lights etc. It helps conserve your actual battery and works well. They have a separate 12v system from their 400v+ system that they use to run the motor.
    - thisisnico 6y ago
withinboredom 6y ago
So, everyone sitting in a parking lot while their SO does some shopping and their phone charging has voided the warranty?
- mschuster91 6y ago
  No, only those who used their Tesla (or other vehicle) to power their home.
  - amelius 6y ago
    So I can run a TV, fridge, laundry machine from my car as long as they are not inside my home? Why doesn't Tesla limit the output current of the battery and be done with it? Why this strange rule?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Because Tesla isn't currently trying to sell devices to power those things outside of your home the way they are trying to sell Powerwall, so using your car that way isn't reducing the market for a different Tesla product.
    - turtlebits 6y ago
      The 12V plugs in the car are limited to 10 amps (~120 watts)
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Strictly speaking, yes that violates Tesla's warranty.
mrfusion 6y ago
This will be tricky to enforce with the cyber truck having built in 110 and 220 volt outlets.
- protomyth 6y ago
  There is no way I would trust Tesla not to say "I abused" the outlets if I took the cybertruck to a work site.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    Yup. Tesla has shown absolutely zero obligation in releasing, without authorization, telemetry data from drivers and incidents to defend the company/vehicle, while you, poor owner, are forced to go through the subpoena process to get information on your own vehicle to defend yourself in an incident.
- turtlebits 6y ago
  I'm sure the outlets will be current limited not to damage the electrical system. Hooking up a 2000W inverter and drawing 165 amps from a small lead acid battery is a bad idea, let alone in a vehicle.
turtlebits 6y ago
I'm pretty sure the warranty limitation line is to prevent liability. (mostly for people trying to hook up directly to the ~375V battery pack). The 12V battery wiring and/or DC/DC charger is probably also not designed to have a continuous ~165+ amp draw for a long period of time. (2000W / 12)
- stonkdonk 6y ago
  Not to mention the main battery would have to constantly recharge the 12v battery, which is probably bad for both batteries. Going from the high-voltage battery to the 12 volt to the inverter sounds really inefficient too. I usually see people using marine batteries as pc backup power, but only using a couple of hundred watts for an inverter. https://teslatap.com/articles/12-volt-battery-compendium/ https://teslatap.com/articles/12-volt-battery-compendium/ The batteries mentioned here have 40 or 45 Amp-hours, which I believe would be 480 or 540 Watt-hours (amp hours * 12v), which is not enough to run a 2000W inverter for very long. Ideally, there would be circuitry to hook up directly to the main battery safely and efficiently.
  - fy20 6y ago
    > Not to mention the main battery would have to constantly recharge the 12v battery, which is probably bad for both batteries. I don't know about a Tesla, but this is how regular ICE cars work. The power from the alternator varies depending on the speed of the engine, so if you are stopped at a red light with your radio, wipers and head lights on, the alternator may not provide enough power. This is why the 12v battery is still connected after the engine has started, not just to charge itself, but effectively as a big capacitor to balance the 12V power supply to the car. As long as the inverter is normally drawing less power than the high voltage to 12V system can supply, it shouldn't damage the 12V battery. This is also why cars with start-stop usually use AGM batteries, as the battery will be run down a lot more while the car is stopped (and the engine isn't running), which would quickly damage a regular lead acid battery.
- nkingsy 6y ago
  pulling that kind of wattage from a 12v car battery will destroy it in short order, and I’m not sure it can even discharge that fast. Last time our power went out I charged my 48v ebike battery off of my leaf’s 12v, then used that to power a big inverter to run the fridge. Now I have some dedicated solar that can charge the ebike, so no need for shenanigans. Anyone looking to do this, there are challenges, and don’t do it with a battery that isn’t built for serious discharge (mine is 1.7kwh and rated for 3k watt bursts). Most off the shelf ebike batteries will not tolerate that kind of abuse.
protomyth 6y ago
GM used to point out in its "future tech" announcements that you could power your house by hooking it up to your car in emergencies. This really was a big thing about their fuel-cell thinking but carried on in the electric era. I guess ICE vehicles still have two big advantages: I can power a lot of things in emergencies and car manufactures haven't quite got in the habit of monitoring the hell out them yet.
- tzs 6y ago
  My ICE car is a big part of my plans if I lose power for a day in the winter such as during a snowstorm and cannot drive out. I make sure to fill it up before bad weather, and if I lose power and my house becomes too cold I'll go sit in the car. Idling with the heater on it should get 25-30 hours on a tank. That should be long enough for either power to be restored, or for there have been enough traffic from people up my street in trucks and big SUVs to have cleared the road enough to drive out. How well do EVs function as emergency shelter?
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Do make sure your tailpipe is clear and not filling your garage. Our family once used a propane grill as heating source (the food was a nice plus). I have one friend with a ICE vehicle that he can plug into the house and power some essentials. He is a general contractor and has a lot of fun stuff on his truck. How well do EVs function as emergency shelter? I would be curious on a statement from each manufacture on how long I could run the heater in an emergency situation.
gpm 6y ago
Lot's of discussion about tesla voiding the whole warranty, but that doesn't seem to be supported by the article. > The Tesla service center said that the battery needed replacing, but they actually found this post on the Facebook group and said that his setup voided the warranty. So they refused to replace the battery > The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any vehicle damage or malfunction directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from [...] Using the vehicle as a stationary power source Per a plain reading of the warranty, it still applies to unrelated damages. That doesn't contradict the service center declining to replace the battery under warranty.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  Why is this not the top comment? This is uncharacteristically anti tesla clickbait coming from electrek.co. I dont so much care about that, but they could at least have a less inflammatory title. If you drain a 12v lead acid battery it usually kills it. Read through the warranty t&cs on pretty much any device. There is verbiage stating that if you arent using it for the intended purpose then the warranty is null and void. This is standard practice and generally a reasonable thing to have in a warranty. If a device/car/whatever is built for one thing and you decide to use it for not that thing then why should the company have to do additional leg work to decide if it is harmful or could damage the <thing>. Sidebar- Maybe its a good idea to not post your entire life on facebook, twitter, insta, whatever. Alternatively the expectation should be that there could be unintended consequences.
- kop316 6y ago
  That is fair, it is hard to tell if they denied the warrenty to the entire car now, or just the battery.
  - xedeon 6y ago
    It's pretty clear that they ONLY denied the warranty to the 12V battery. Which is reasonable and is clearly stated on the manual. Lexus/Toyota won't even let you jump start another vehicle if you have a Hybrid. Not only will they not warranty the 12v battery, but also other electronics that you end up damaging. "Exclusive jump starting terminal precaution The exclusive jump starting terminal is to be used when charging the 12-volt battery from another vehicle in an emergency. It cannot be used to jump start another vehicle." https://www.rav4world.com/threads/12v-battery-dead-on-2017-xse.295051/page-2#post-2693991 https://www.rav4world.com/threads/12v-battery-dead-on-2017-x... https://priuschat.com/threads/jump-starting-the-prius-c.120700/ https://priuschat.com/threads/jump-starting-the-prius-c.1207...
fimdomeio 6y ago
Hidden in the article an a bit offtopic is that the warranty is also void in the case of an act of God which I find way more interesting. How can someone other than an atheist determine what is and isn't an act of God?
- techer 6y ago
  Force_majeure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
- psKama 6y ago
  "Act of God" is a legal term aka known as "Force Majeur". Its definition varies according to local legal systems.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Miraste 6y ago
  Despite the wording, it's not a religious term. It's often found in insurance contracts; if you have home or renter's insurance it's probably in there. "Acts of God" in legal parlance are usually natural disasters. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/act-god.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/act-god.asp
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gtirloni 6y ago
  Well spotted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God "In legal usage throughout the English-speaking world, an act of God is a natural hazard outside human control, such as an earthquake or tsunami, for which no person can be held responsible. An act of God may amount to an exception to liability in contracts (as under the Hague–Visby Rules) or it may be an "insured peril" in an insurance policy. By contrast, other extraordinary man-made or political events are deemed force majeure"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
idlewords 6y ago
I guess it's back to heating my home with Corolla exhaust :-(
sathackr 6y ago
This is not new. You'd encounter the same thing from any other car dealer if you brought your vehicle in for a charging system problem and they discover you've been pulling 100+ amps continuously(1200 watts at 12 volts = 100amps) from the system. Vehicle alternators(the device that charges the battery while the engine is running) are not designed to continuously output that kind of load and would likely be damaged if it were used for any significant duration at that load. I have done this myself with a non-electrically propelled vehicle and have damaged(due to overheating) an alternator in the process.
- stonkdonk 6y ago
  People get used to treating electronics and computers as black boxes, not concerned with their internal workings since things just tend to work how they should these days. But when you get into high power and batteries, you have to consider chemistry and heat. You can't just plug a 2000W inverter into a battery and assume things will work without any issues down the line. It's the same reason fast-charge for phones only works with a specific type of cable and connector. Otherwise you could overload the battery or the burn the cable by sending too much current through the wrong cable.
  - sathackr 6y ago
    Particularly when said battery is not accustomed and likely not even designed for such high power loads. This battery would be only used for vehicle accessories, electronics, etc... Not even as a "cranking" battery as would be the case in a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. The battery in the Tesla was likely sized and designed with this in mind also.
mdoms 6y ago
The real story here is Tesla stalking their customers around on social media. Nasty.
stonkdonk 6y ago
Though I don't doubt that Teslas could be engineered to power a home, it doesn't make sense for them to officially support it as a feature. At most, it would power your home for a day before needing to be recharged, so you would need solar panels or a gasoline generator to recharge it. At that point, you would already have a home battery system in the first place, or you would just power your home with the generator directly. Plus, you would need to have transfer panels set up to power things that are hard-wired, like lights, HVAC, pumps, etc. At that point, it doesn't make sense to adapt a system designed to move a car to work with a house.
stonkdonk 6y ago
"Then I have an extension chord to my gas furnace to power the blower and furnace computer." is anyone else wondering how his home furnace has a regular plug? aren't these things usually hard-wired with a dedicated circuit? you usually need a transfer-panel installed to do this.
dzhiurgis 6y ago
What I realised few days ago that it would be way cheaper to buy semi-wrecked Bolt, i3 or similar EV with range extender than buy batteries + generator for house.

75 points by Corrado 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Seems fair even if I don't agree that Tesla is looking through Facebook to void warranies. I don't think any other car maker will warranty an abused 12v battery.

kop316 6y ago
While I agree with your conclusion, I would argue how you got there is a bit faulty. EDIT: I misead the article. I don't necessarily think Tesla is in the right about this, especially voiding your whole warrenty. Car Maker's typically don't make the 12v battery, some third party does, and the warrenty is typically through the third party. A typical 12v car battery is also lead acid, and a lead acid battery behaves radically different as comapred to the lithum batteries with charging and discharging, and lead acid batteries age differently too. I would have no problem "abusing" a 12v lead acid battery (and there are plenty of sites out there to show how to store energy for your home using them), but I would not want to attempt that with a lithium battery. Why? Without the proper charging/discharging circuitry, those things can catch fire (thermal runaway), and that can't happen on a lead acid battery. However, I would argue that due to the aging of the battery combined with the danger of adding third party discharging circuitry, I would agree that this would void the warrenty, as I would imagine the car cannot now monitor the aging of the battery now. I would not be happy to get a used tesle to know that the battery is significantly more aged than what is reported. EDIT: I apperently misread the article, and assumed the inverter was being hooked up into the Tesla battery, but Tesla has a 12v lead acid battery. Re-reading the article, I am actually surprised about this now. Tesla is voiding the warrenty from using the 12v lead acid battery, NOT the primary lithium battery. This may actually be illegal under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
- derekp7 6y ago
  Lead acid batteries can explode though. The one hooked to the backup sump pump in my parents' house had went kaboom when I was a kid, scared the crap out of me (quite literally in this case).
  - kop316 6y ago
    Was this an old lead acid battery (I ask because you say "when you were a kid")? That was more common in ones where they were not sealed, and you had to add water to it occasionally. Modern lead acid ones are completely sealed, and should not have that issue.
    - jsight 6y ago
      Modern lead acid batteries can still vent hydrogen, which can be a risk in an enclosed space.
      - kop316 6y ago
        Interesting, I did not know that. thank you!
    - derekp7 6y ago
      Yes, it was back in the 80's. But even as recently as a year ago I was looking at backup sump pumps, and the ones at the local big box store had the lead battery separate, plus you had to buy the acid in a separate bottle that you add in with distilled water. I do recall that the battery was split open and its guts had hit the ceiling.
  - dreamcompiler 6y ago
    That was because it vented hydrogen in an enclosed space; the lead itself didn't explode.
    - derekp7 6y ago
      Of course the lead didn't explode, that is why I said the battery exploded.

craig1f 6y ago

Tesla monitors battery degradation based on miles driven. If you use your battery as a stationary power source, it messes up their ability to anticipate degradation. So it makes sense. This is, from the warranty's point of view, the same as manipulating the odometer on an ICE car to make it appear to have driven fewer miles than it actually has.

ComputerGuru 6y ago
> This is, from the warranty's point of view, the same as manipulating the odometer on an ICE car to make it appear to have driven fewer miles than it actually has. Your first paragraph is spot-on, but your second claim couldn’t be more wrong. It’s akin to powering your home off your ICE car’s alternator and an inverter which wouldn’t register as miles driven on the odometer.
- ganoushoreilly 6y ago
  It's also why a lot of trucks now display IDLE run hours on the engine in addition to in motion/drive hours.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    In addition, Ford added a whole electric generator solution https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a32970167/f-150-generator-pro-power-onboard/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a329701...
caturopath 6y ago
> the same as manipulating the odometer on an ICE car to make it appear to have driven fewer miles than it actually has Well, no, this is the same as running your ICE car a lot without driving it. (Which is actually common for some ways people use cars.) Some cars and all-ish heavy machinery count the amount of time the engine is running. (It's not common for cars to base their warranties on this, but only calendar time and miles, as far as I know.)

chomp 6y ago

I mean, shouldn't they? It's a car, go get the LG RESU or Powerwall if you want to power your home with a battery.

xhkkffbf 6y ago

> Tesla’s warranty states that you can’t use your vehicle “as a stationary power source.” This reminds me of "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" and how Bueller jacked the car up to run the odometer in reverse. If we prop up the rear wheels, how fast do we have to spin the wheels to qualify as non-stationary?

jaywalk 6y ago
And then they'll start correlating torque with battery usage.
- cronix 6y ago
  Would they be able to tell if you used a dyno? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqFWvAplIKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqFWvAplIKc
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    I'm sure they could, because the load on the battery still wouldn't match the torque being delivered by the motors.

everdrive 6y ago

All the Tesla monitoring makes me nervous in general, however I do feel that Tesla is within their rights to void warranty here. Ideally this would ONLY void the warrant on the battery, and any other affected system. ie, if you ruin your battery this way, but your brakes fail, ideally you could get warranty service.

1-6 6y ago
If Tesla voided the warranty after investigating what happened reading the ODB2, that's one thing. If they voided the warranty over-the-air, that's more concerning.

kop316 6y ago

EDIT 2: As a few folks have pointed out, it is hard to tell based on the article if the warrenty was denied to the entire car, or just the lead acid battery. So I misread the article at first. This is not a person trying to hook up a power source to the primary Lithium Battery, it is someone hooking up an inverter to a 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has. While I would agree that hooking up an inverter to the primary battery is one thing, voiding the warrenty for hooking up an inverter to the lead acid battery is entirely different, and I would be furious if a dealer tried to void a warrenty on my car based on a $100 car battery. I actually wonder if what they are doing is illegal under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. What likely happened is that the inverter deeply discharged the lead acid battery, tripping the flag in the car. As an FYI, what you can do if you do this occurs is bring it to an auto parts store, they can inspect your battery to tell you if it is still good, (this is usually a free service), recharge your battery (I have often got it for free, but sometimes it's like a 5$ fee), and if the battery isn't old, that will fix it. EDIT: if you want to read the act, it is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130317083941/http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C50.txt https://web.archive.org/web/20130317083941/http://uscode.hou... But in reading here: https://apb-law.com/understanding-magnuson-moss-act-relates-aftermarket-car-parts/ https://apb-law.com/understanding-magnuson-moss-act-relates-... I actually think what Tesla is doing is in fact illegal.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has Why do Teslas still have these wet batteries, do you know? Also, does the Tesla not have a standard wall socket in it? Why would you need to use an inverter?
- crowbahr 6y ago
  Because they have a prewarm system and 12v lights etc. It helps conserve your actual battery and works well. They have a separate 12v system from their 400v+ system that they use to run the motor.
  - thisisnico 6y ago

withinboredom 6y ago

So, everyone sitting in a parking lot while their SO does some shopping and their phone charging has voided the warranty?

mschuster91 6y ago
No, only those who used their Tesla (or other vehicle) to power their home.
- amelius 6y ago
  So I can run a TV, fridge, laundry machine from my car as long as they are not inside my home? Why doesn't Tesla limit the output current of the battery and be done with it? Why this strange rule?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Because Tesla isn't currently trying to sell devices to power those things outside of your home the way they are trying to sell Powerwall, so using your car that way isn't reducing the market for a different Tesla product.
  - turtlebits 6y ago
    The 12V plugs in the car are limited to 10 amps (~120 watts)
gamblor956 6y ago
Strictly speaking, yes that violates Tesla's warranty.

mrfusion 6y ago

This will be tricky to enforce with the cyber truck having built in 110 and 220 volt outlets.

protomyth 6y ago
There is no way I would trust Tesla not to say "I abused" the outlets if I took the cybertruck to a work site.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Yup. Tesla has shown absolutely zero obligation in releasing, without authorization, telemetry data from drivers and incidents to defend the company/vehicle, while you, poor owner, are forced to go through the subpoena process to get information on your own vehicle to defend yourself in an incident.
turtlebits 6y ago
I'm sure the outlets will be current limited not to damage the electrical system. Hooking up a 2000W inverter and drawing 165 amps from a small lead acid battery is a bad idea, let alone in a vehicle.

turtlebits 6y ago

I'm pretty sure the warranty limitation line is to prevent liability. (mostly for people trying to hook up directly to the ~375V battery pack). The 12V battery wiring and/or DC/DC charger is probably also not designed to have a continuous ~165+ amp draw for a long period of time. (2000W / 12)

stonkdonk 6y ago
Not to mention the main battery would have to constantly recharge the 12v battery, which is probably bad for both batteries. Going from the high-voltage battery to the 12 volt to the inverter sounds really inefficient too. I usually see people using marine batteries as pc backup power, but only using a couple of hundred watts for an inverter. https://teslatap.com/articles/12-volt-battery-compendium/ https://teslatap.com/articles/12-volt-battery-compendium/ The batteries mentioned here have 40 or 45 Amp-hours, which I believe would be 480 or 540 Watt-hours (amp hours * 12v), which is not enough to run a 2000W inverter for very long. Ideally, there would be circuitry to hook up directly to the main battery safely and efficiently.
- fy20 6y ago
  > Not to mention the main battery would have to constantly recharge the 12v battery, which is probably bad for both batteries. I don't know about a Tesla, but this is how regular ICE cars work. The power from the alternator varies depending on the speed of the engine, so if you are stopped at a red light with your radio, wipers and head lights on, the alternator may not provide enough power. This is why the 12v battery is still connected after the engine has started, not just to charge itself, but effectively as a big capacitor to balance the 12V power supply to the car. As long as the inverter is normally drawing less power than the high voltage to 12V system can supply, it shouldn't damage the 12V battery. This is also why cars with start-stop usually use AGM batteries, as the battery will be run down a lot more while the car is stopped (and the engine isn't running), which would quickly damage a regular lead acid battery.
nkingsy 6y ago
pulling that kind of wattage from a 12v car battery will destroy it in short order, and I’m not sure it can even discharge that fast. Last time our power went out I charged my 48v ebike battery off of my leaf’s 12v, then used that to power a big inverter to run the fridge. Now I have some dedicated solar that can charge the ebike, so no need for shenanigans. Anyone looking to do this, there are challenges, and don’t do it with a battery that isn’t built for serious discharge (mine is 1.7kwh and rated for 3k watt bursts). Most off the shelf ebike batteries will not tolerate that kind of abuse.

protomyth 6y ago

GM used to point out in its "future tech" announcements that you could power your house by hooking it up to your car in emergencies. This really was a big thing about their fuel-cell thinking but carried on in the electric era. I guess ICE vehicles still have two big advantages: I can power a lot of things in emergencies and car manufactures haven't quite got in the habit of monitoring the hell out them yet.

tzs 6y ago
My ICE car is a big part of my plans if I lose power for a day in the winter such as during a snowstorm and cannot drive out. I make sure to fill it up before bad weather, and if I lose power and my house becomes too cold I'll go sit in the car. Idling with the heater on it should get 25-30 hours on a tank. That should be long enough for either power to be restored, or for there have been enough traffic from people up my street in trucks and big SUVs to have cleared the road enough to drive out. How well do EVs function as emergency shelter?
- protomyth 6y ago
  Do make sure your tailpipe is clear and not filling your garage. Our family once used a propane grill as heating source (the food was a nice plus). I have one friend with a ICE vehicle that he can plug into the house and power some essentials. He is a general contractor and has a lot of fun stuff on his truck. How well do EVs function as emergency shelter? I would be curious on a statement from each manufacture on how long I could run the heater in an emergency situation.

gpm 6y ago

Lot's of discussion about tesla voiding the whole warranty, but that doesn't seem to be supported by the article. > The Tesla service center said that the battery needed replacing, but they actually found this post on the Facebook group and said that his setup voided the warranty. So they refused to replace the battery > The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any vehicle damage or malfunction directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from [...] Using the vehicle as a stationary power source Per a plain reading of the warranty, it still applies to unrelated damages. That doesn't contradict the service center declining to replace the battery under warranty.

S_A_P 6y ago
Why is this not the top comment? This is uncharacteristically anti tesla clickbait coming from electrek.co. I dont so much care about that, but they could at least have a less inflammatory title. If you drain a 12v lead acid battery it usually kills it. Read through the warranty t&cs on pretty much any device. There is verbiage stating that if you arent using it for the intended purpose then the warranty is null and void. This is standard practice and generally a reasonable thing to have in a warranty. If a device/car/whatever is built for one thing and you decide to use it for not that thing then why should the company have to do additional leg work to decide if it is harmful or could damage the <thing>. Sidebar- Maybe its a good idea to not post your entire life on facebook, twitter, insta, whatever. Alternatively the expectation should be that there could be unintended consequences.
kop316 6y ago
That is fair, it is hard to tell if they denied the warrenty to the entire car now, or just the battery.
- xedeon 6y ago
  It's pretty clear that they ONLY denied the warranty to the 12V battery. Which is reasonable and is clearly stated on the manual. Lexus/Toyota won't even let you jump start another vehicle if you have a Hybrid. Not only will they not warranty the 12v battery, but also other electronics that you end up damaging. "Exclusive jump starting terminal precaution The exclusive jump starting terminal is to be used when charging the 12-volt battery from another vehicle in an emergency. It cannot be used to jump start another vehicle." https://www.rav4world.com/threads/12v-battery-dead-on-2017-xse.295051/page-2#post-2693991 https://www.rav4world.com/threads/12v-battery-dead-on-2017-x... https://priuschat.com/threads/jump-starting-the-prius-c.120700/ https://priuschat.com/threads/jump-starting-the-prius-c.1207...

fimdomeio 6y ago

Hidden in the article an a bit offtopic is that the warranty is also void in the case of an act of God which I find way more interesting. How can someone other than an atheist determine what is and isn't an act of God?

techer 6y ago
Force_majeure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
psKama 6y ago
"Act of God" is a legal term aka known as "Force Majeur". Its definition varies according to local legal systems.
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Miraste 6y ago
Despite the wording, it's not a religious term. It's often found in insurance contracts; if you have home or renter's insurance it's probably in there. "Acts of God" in legal parlance are usually natural disasters. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/act-god.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/act-god.asp
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gtirloni 6y ago
Well spotted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God "In legal usage throughout the English-speaking world, an act of God is a natural hazard outside human control, such as an earthquake or tsunami, for which no person can be held responsible. An act of God may amount to an exception to liability in contracts (as under the Hague–Visby Rules) or it may be an "insured peril" in an insurance policy. By contrast, other extraordinary man-made or political events are deemed force majeure"
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idlewords 6y ago

I guess it's back to heating my home with Corolla exhaust :-(

sathackr 6y ago

This is not new. You'd encounter the same thing from any other car dealer if you brought your vehicle in for a charging system problem and they discover you've been pulling 100+ amps continuously(1200 watts at 12 volts = 100amps) from the system. Vehicle alternators(the device that charges the battery while the engine is running) are not designed to continuously output that kind of load and would likely be damaged if it were used for any significant duration at that load. I have done this myself with a non-electrically propelled vehicle and have damaged(due to overheating) an alternator in the process.

stonkdonk 6y ago
People get used to treating electronics and computers as black boxes, not concerned with their internal workings since things just tend to work how they should these days. But when you get into high power and batteries, you have to consider chemistry and heat. You can't just plug a 2000W inverter into a battery and assume things will work without any issues down the line. It's the same reason fast-charge for phones only works with a specific type of cable and connector. Otherwise you could overload the battery or the burn the cable by sending too much current through the wrong cable.
- sathackr 6y ago
  Particularly when said battery is not accustomed and likely not even designed for such high power loads. This battery would be only used for vehicle accessories, electronics, etc... Not even as a "cranking" battery as would be the case in a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. The battery in the Tesla was likely sized and designed with this in mind also.

mdoms 6y ago

The real story here is Tesla stalking their customers around on social media. Nasty.

stonkdonk 6y ago

Though I don't doubt that Teslas could be engineered to power a home, it doesn't make sense for them to officially support it as a feature. At most, it would power your home for a day before needing to be recharged, so you would need solar panels or a gasoline generator to recharge it. At that point, you would already have a home battery system in the first place, or you would just power your home with the generator directly. Plus, you would need to have transfer panels set up to power things that are hard-wired, like lights, HVAC, pumps, etc. At that point, it doesn't make sense to adapt a system designed to move a car to work with a house.

stonkdonk 6y ago

"Then I have an extension chord to my gas furnace to power the blower and furnace computer." is anyone else wondering how his home furnace has a regular plug? aren't these things usually hard-wired with a dedicated circuit? you usually need a transfer-panel installed to do this.

dzhiurgis 6y ago

What I realised few days ago that it would be way cheaper to buy semi-wrecked Bolt, i3 or similar EV with range extender than buy batteries + generator for house.