5 ms·

> it's all just a different flavor of Windows at this point Frankly I don't think that's fair to Windows. There would be a shitstorm of epic proportions if Mic

by mdoms 6y ago

> it's all just a different flavor of Windows at this point Frankly I don't think that's fair to Windows. There would be a shitstorm of epic proportions if Microsoft unilaterally broke compatibility with thousands and thousands of programs, tools and workflows like Big Sur has done. Big Sur has been out for 3 months now and the company I work for, like many others, has a blanket ban on upgrading to it because of mountains of compatibility problems with mission-critical software.

GekkePrutser 6y ago
Unfortunately you have the PR of Apple to deal with too. I manage hundreds of Macs and the users are constantly howling about not being able to use Big Sur yet. I can explain there are still many dealbreaking bugs (the 11.2 upgrade space problem caused major headaches taking hours to fix in my testing!), it's slower and more screenspace wasteful but they keep wanting it because of Apple's snazzy PR. There's also a major issue with AD accounts getting completely blocked after the upgrade. Of course what doesn't help is that new Macs come with Big Sur by default and can't really be downgraded. So we have to support it at least for new machines.
- Razengan 6y ago
  > I'm right, everyone else is wrong.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    No, like I'm saying there are actual issues. If there were no issues I'd be very happy to let people upgrade. Just a grab: - Box Drive still doesn't work properly: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/01/box-drive-macos-big-sur-m1-mac-issues/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/01/box-drive-macos-big-sur... . This is our main online file storage. Edit: I meant Box Drive, not Box Sync, thanks a2tech - AD accounts get completely broken after the update (can't log in due to an MDM profile intended for local accounts now applies to AD mobile accounts as well). Confirmed by Apple support but still pending a fix - Apple keeps introducing bugs, I was close to push the button for mass upgrades with 11.2 but then they introduced the space bug which caused macs to be locked in a bootloop that can't be fixed without another Mac present with an older OS version: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/15/macos-big-sur-11-2-1-revised/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/15/macos-big-sur-11-2-1-re... . This really should never have made it through QA. - Our VPN still has issues with random disconnects that are still being investigated (they switched over to network extensions so this was a big rewrite for them) - Our antivirus only supports Big Sur as of about 1 month ago. So this was a blocking point for a long time that's only just been resolved. This was also due to the system extension thing mainly (and yes they could have done this sooner as this was already on the cards with Catalina, absolutely) All in all this is not at a level I call "stable" and that's not all third-party compatibility issues either, some of them are pure Apple. When I say that it's slower and wastes more screen space, that's a matter of opinion (at least of the impact of these things). But these are not a reason for me to block the upgrade, it's just something I would mention to explain why it's not such a big deal that they can't have it yet :) I will allow it when it actually works reliably. As the article explains, Apple's PR is not always aligned with reality. Updates are indeed slower and I often hear the fan running hard since Big Sur when it wouldn't before. Especially the WindowServer process uses a lot of CPU now for some reason.
    - dawnerd 6y ago
      Add to the list, screen sharing became very very spotty and no longer works on a headless Mac without first waking it up and restarting the screen share process. There’s no way they actually qa’d this. Another fun one, refresh rates will sometimes go back to 60 but the drop down shows the higher rate and only fixes once you toggle. Never had this happen before Big Sur.
      - smoldesu 6y ago
        Don't even get me started on my 144hz monitor. Getting it to work reliably on Big Sur was a neverending trainwreck.
        cassianoleal 6y ago
        I need SwitchResX to even select anything over 75Hz. Have you made it work with the native Display system preferences pane?
      - GekkePrutser 6y ago
        Aha I have not even noticed this issue, I will have a look. But we don't use the built-in screen sharing in production. Some of my test boxes have it though, but they're also on an IP KVM luckily.
    - a2tech 6y ago
      Don't hold your breath for Box Sync to be fixed--it wasn't working right previous to Big Sur being delivered. Box Drive seems to be the only software that works semi-reliably these days.
      - GekkePrutser 6y ago
        Oops I meant Box Drive actually, I have to update my post. I was never a fan of Box Sync as it doesn't have the on-demand feature and as such uses a LOT of disk space and bandwidth.
- swiley 6y ago
  Dump it and run linux. Apple only wants to make instagram scrolling machines.
  - Toutouxc 6y ago
    Which is why they: do WWDC, provide Xcode for free, put machine learning acceleration into the M1, created a brand new Virtualization framework, demoed Linux on the M1 Macs, develop their own professional software for Macs (Final Cut, Logic)..?
    - sofixa 6y ago
      > provide Xcode for free They force you to use it to develop any app for iOS and macOS - it's a significant financial investment to get there ( you need a mac, a developer account), if you had to pay for Xcode as well... ( to be fair, you probably pay for it in a way with the developer account)
0df8dkdf 6y ago
>Big Sur has been out for 3 months now and the company I work for, like many others, has a blanket ban on upgrading to it because of mountains of compatibility problems with mission-critical software. I have being a Mac user since Apple II. All these changes really saddens me. Can we start some kind group similar to class action law suit to pressure Apple into changing this kind of behaviour in Big Sur. If not enough people upgrade, maybe they will have skip a version and come out with something more light weight. I think that happened with Snow Leopard ( don't remember the exact one).
- sbarre 6y ago
  There is already a group of people applying this pressure. Ex-customers who have stopped buying their products. Join us. Along with many others it seems, Catalina is the last version of macOS I'll be using. I have a 2013 27" iMac and as of mid-last year I was considering buying a new one sometime in 2021, but I've now changed my mind, due to decisions Apple has made about how they handle their desktop operating system.
  - 0df8dkdf 6y ago
    Thanks, is there a group where we can join? Maybe a web site would be great. Please post a link or PM me if you know. It relates to both personal and professional usage of MacOS.
    - sbarre 6y ago
      Oh no sorry I didn't mean there was an actual group I just meant stop buying Apple products and vote with your wallet. Apple doesn't care about a group but they do care about money. So do like many of us and stop giving them your money. It's all we can really do. Sorry for the confusion!
- smoldesu 6y ago
  I really hope that something can be done, but Tim Cook's hostility towards the end user gives me a feeling that they're not interested. Don't get me wrong, though, Cook's grip on Apple has offered some much-needed upgrades in a lot of key ares, but the power-user has been ignored the entire time. I also get the feeling that their interest lies in engineering the Mac to appeal to the lowest common denominator. They can sell an iPhone to anyone, they can sell an iPad to anyone, but they can't sell a Mac to just anyone. The solution? Make it run iPhone and iPad apps.
foepys 6y ago
I have said this before but here I go again: the company I work for is still maintaining a program written in 1999 in Visual Basic 6.0 nearly unchanged on Windows in 32bit. Windows is the perfect platform for us because it makes our applications so much less expensive to develop. We are a profitable company with hundreds of B2B customers and thousands of users that deploy on their own hardware and we can deliver our software without Docker or anything because the application just runs on any Windows version since XP. It's basically write and forget (apart from a few hickups here and there when Windows Update accidentally breakes something). We have been working for years to replace parts of the VB6 application with modern .NET libraries and while this is unsupported by Microsoft, it's still working. The VB application hosts the modern .NET libraries and integrates its functionalities and new functionality is exclusively developed in .NET. Our development speed is not impacted by deprecated APIs that we have to urgently address. We can take our time to improve things without our customers noticing. If we were supporting macOS, we would have shut down a long time ago. It would've been impossible for us to keep up with yearly macOS API changes and to add new features at the same time.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  I feel like this is a security nightmare. How do you handle that consideration?
  - foepys 6y ago
    Everything is running in firewalled environments. Literally nothing written in VB6 is publicly accessible. We are using .NET since the release of .NET Framework 2.0 and only very old code is VB6.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      Can anything that lives in that firewalled environment reach out to the internet or have stuff reach in? If so, it’s only a matter of time before something gets popped and it’s a bastion to access everything else behind the firewall. This isn’t even nation state level attacks, it’s pretty standard behavior for botnets and ransomware.

by mdoms 6y ago

GekkePrutser 6y ago

Unfortunately you have the PR of Apple to deal with too. I manage hundreds of Macs and the users are constantly howling about not being able to use Big Sur yet. I can explain there are still many dealbreaking bugs (the 11.2 upgrade space problem caused major headaches taking hours to fix in my testing!), it's slower and more screenspace wasteful but they keep wanting it because of Apple's snazzy PR. There's also a major issue with AD accounts getting completely blocked after the upgrade. Of course what doesn't help is that new Macs come with Big Sur by default and can't really be downgraded. So we have to support it at least for new machines.

Razengan 6y ago
> I'm right, everyone else is wrong.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  No, like I'm saying there are actual issues. If there were no issues I'd be very happy to let people upgrade. Just a grab: - Box Drive still doesn't work properly: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/01/box-drive-macos-big-sur-m1-mac-issues/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/01/box-drive-macos-big-sur... . This is our main online file storage. Edit: I meant Box Drive, not Box Sync, thanks a2tech - AD accounts get completely broken after the update (can't log in due to an MDM profile intended for local accounts now applies to AD mobile accounts as well). Confirmed by Apple support but still pending a fix - Apple keeps introducing bugs, I was close to push the button for mass upgrades with 11.2 but then they introduced the space bug which caused macs to be locked in a bootloop that can't be fixed without another Mac present with an older OS version: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/15/macos-big-sur-11-2-1-revised/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/15/macos-big-sur-11-2-1-re... . This really should never have made it through QA. - Our VPN still has issues with random disconnects that are still being investigated (they switched over to network extensions so this was a big rewrite for them) - Our antivirus only supports Big Sur as of about 1 month ago. So this was a blocking point for a long time that's only just been resolved. This was also due to the system extension thing mainly (and yes they could have done this sooner as this was already on the cards with Catalina, absolutely) All in all this is not at a level I call "stable" and that's not all third-party compatibility issues either, some of them are pure Apple. When I say that it's slower and wastes more screen space, that's a matter of opinion (at least of the impact of these things). But these are not a reason for me to block the upgrade, it's just something I would mention to explain why it's not such a big deal that they can't have it yet :) I will allow it when it actually works reliably. As the article explains, Apple's PR is not always aligned with reality. Updates are indeed slower and I often hear the fan running hard since Big Sur when it wouldn't before. Especially the WindowServer process uses a lot of CPU now for some reason.
  - dawnerd 6y ago
    Add to the list, screen sharing became very very spotty and no longer works on a headless Mac without first waking it up and restarting the screen share process. There’s no way they actually qa’d this. Another fun one, refresh rates will sometimes go back to 60 but the drop down shows the higher rate and only fixes once you toggle. Never had this happen before Big Sur.
    - smoldesu 6y ago
      Don't even get me started on my 144hz monitor. Getting it to work reliably on Big Sur was a neverending trainwreck.
      - cassianoleal 6y ago
        I need SwitchResX to even select anything over 75Hz. Have you made it work with the native Display system preferences pane?
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      Aha I have not even noticed this issue, I will have a look. But we don't use the built-in screen sharing in production. Some of my test boxes have it though, but they're also on an IP KVM luckily.
  - a2tech 6y ago
    Don't hold your breath for Box Sync to be fixed--it wasn't working right previous to Big Sur being delivered. Box Drive seems to be the only software that works semi-reliably these days.
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      Oops I meant Box Drive actually, I have to update my post. I was never a fan of Box Sync as it doesn't have the on-demand feature and as such uses a LOT of disk space and bandwidth.
swiley 6y ago
Dump it and run linux. Apple only wants to make instagram scrolling machines.
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  Which is why they: do WWDC, provide Xcode for free, put machine learning acceleration into the M1, created a brand new Virtualization framework, demoed Linux on the M1 Macs, develop their own professional software for Macs (Final Cut, Logic)..?
  - sofixa 6y ago
    > provide Xcode for free They force you to use it to develop any app for iOS and macOS - it's a significant financial investment to get there ( you need a mac, a developer account), if you had to pay for Xcode as well... ( to be fair, you probably pay for it in a way with the developer account)

0df8dkdf 6y ago

>Big Sur has been out for 3 months now and the company I work for, like many others, has a blanket ban on upgrading to it because of mountains of compatibility problems with mission-critical software. I have being a Mac user since Apple II. All these changes really saddens me. Can we start some kind group similar to class action law suit to pressure Apple into changing this kind of behaviour in Big Sur. If not enough people upgrade, maybe they will have skip a version and come out with something more light weight. I think that happened with Snow Leopard ( don't remember the exact one).

sbarre 6y ago
There is already a group of people applying this pressure. Ex-customers who have stopped buying their products. Join us. Along with many others it seems, Catalina is the last version of macOS I'll be using. I have a 2013 27" iMac and as of mid-last year I was considering buying a new one sometime in 2021, but I've now changed my mind, due to decisions Apple has made about how they handle their desktop operating system.
- 0df8dkdf 6y ago
  Thanks, is there a group where we can join? Maybe a web site would be great. Please post a link or PM me if you know. It relates to both personal and professional usage of MacOS.
  - sbarre 6y ago
    Oh no sorry I didn't mean there was an actual group I just meant stop buying Apple products and vote with your wallet. Apple doesn't care about a group but they do care about money. So do like many of us and stop giving them your money. It's all we can really do. Sorry for the confusion!
smoldesu 6y ago
I really hope that something can be done, but Tim Cook's hostility towards the end user gives me a feeling that they're not interested. Don't get me wrong, though, Cook's grip on Apple has offered some much-needed upgrades in a lot of key ares, but the power-user has been ignored the entire time. I also get the feeling that their interest lies in engineering the Mac to appeal to the lowest common denominator. They can sell an iPhone to anyone, they can sell an iPad to anyone, but they can't sell a Mac to just anyone. The solution? Make it run iPhone and iPad apps.

foepys 6y ago

I have said this before but here I go again: the company I work for is still maintaining a program written in 1999 in Visual Basic 6.0 nearly unchanged on Windows in 32bit. Windows is the perfect platform for us because it makes our applications so much less expensive to develop. We are a profitable company with hundreds of B2B customers and thousands of users that deploy on their own hardware and we can deliver our software without Docker or anything because the application just runs on any Windows version since XP. It's basically write and forget (apart from a few hickups here and there when Windows Update accidentally breakes something). We have been working for years to replace parts of the VB6 application with modern .NET libraries and while this is unsupported by Microsoft, it's still working. The VB application hosts the modern .NET libraries and integrates its functionalities and new functionality is exclusively developed in .NET. Our development speed is not impacted by deprecated APIs that we have to urgently address. We can take our time to improve things without our customers noticing. If we were supporting macOS, we would have shut down a long time ago. It would've been impossible for us to keep up with yearly macOS API changes and to add new features at the same time.

no_wizard 6y ago
I feel like this is a security nightmare. How do you handle that consideration?
- foepys 6y ago
  Everything is running in firewalled environments. Literally nothing written in VB6 is publicly accessible. We are using .NET since the release of .NET Framework 2.0 and only very old code is VB6.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    Can anything that lives in that firewalled environment reach out to the internet or have stuff reach in? If so, it’s only a matter of time before something gets popped and it’s a bastion to access everything else behind the firewall. This isn’t even nation state level attacks, it’s pretty standard behavior for botnets and ransomware.