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exactly, cars as far i can see are going downhill (perhaps not literally). I fail to understand how anyone can genuinely see EV as a viable alternative to ICE w

exactly, cars as far i can see are going downhill (perhaps not literally). I fail to understand how anyone can genuinely see EV as a viable alternative to ICE when they cost so much and are inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. (i think tesla model y is an amazing car, just severely hamstrung)

ericd 6y ago
What are those metrics they’re inferior on? Model Y seems like an amazing car, period.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  um... Range? Charging time, power to weight, range, cost, also range. Those are the most important things i look for in a car.
  - sjwright 6y ago
    If you need a cheap economy car OR travel extreme distances every day OR if you routinely drive at speeds in excess of 150km/h (90mph) OR if you are unable to charge at home, then electric is probably not going to be for you any time soon. But for everyone else, electric wins your categories. Charging time: ICE cars take about 5 to 10 minutes to detour to a fuelling station. Electric cars take about 5 to 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive at home. Power-to-weight: Due to instant torque, most modern electric cars feel a lot faster than their numbers suggest. But sure, if you're in the market for an MX-5, pure electric isn't for you. Cost: You care about power-to-weight so you're clearly not interested in economy cars. If you want high performance and good range, Tesla models tend to be excellent value relative to their 0–100 times. For most people, cost is still quite high, but this is a relatively short-term problem which will solve itself as manufacturing capacity scales up. Range: Unlike ICE cars, you wake up every morning with a 'full' electric car. The latest models from VW, Tesla etc have ample range for most people. Unless you spend more than half your day on the road, this isn't a concern.
  - ericd 6y ago
    Power to weight ratio is pretty great, no? The acceleration times in the usable speed ranges seems to imply that, at least. I agree that the cost is on the high side, but in terms of utility, it seems pretty great - excellent cargo space, optional 7 seats in a small car for when you really need to carry a couple more, panoramic glass roof. And in terms of charging time, for anyone with the ability to charge at hom, I expect that the lifetime sum of total time spent waiting for a charge will be a good bit lower than time spent navigating to and sitting at gas stations, since you’re not waiting for it while it’s charging overnight.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Added weight is an underappreciated problem. Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants --going back to natural rubber isn't an option either...
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants As if the tiny amount of additional tire wear is going to create as much pollution as burning petrol and keeping the engine lubricated with oil.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      EVs tend to use the brakes less and of course there are no pollutants from combustion. I'd really like to see an indepth comparison of how much pollutants EVs produce locally vs. ICEs.
  - Zanni 6y ago
    I traded in an Audi TTS for my Tesla Model 3 Performance. The Model 3 has better range (300 miles vs. 200), faster charge time for my use case (I plug it in overnight and never have to visit a gas station), better performance, more storage capacity and a vastly superior media/navigation system. The Audi had a nicer steering wheel and slightly nicer seats. I loved my Audi but the Model 3 is better in almost every way. No contest.
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      An ice car with only 200 mile range? I don't think I have ever had a car with so little range in 45 years of driving. And that includes a petrol 5 litre V8 Chevy van. My 2015 Tesla S 70D does about that.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    When you are bitching about EVs and start talking power to weight ratios... it's clear you haven't done your homework. My Model Y is easily the best car I've ever driven in terms of performance, and I didn't even pony up for the fast one. It takes me 10 seconds to charge on my way into the house so no stop at the gas station. Range is better than the VW I used to drive, not as good as my Subaru so I'd call it a push. I haven't done any long trips where I really try to nurse the gas so it's hard to say exactly where it lands though. At a supercharger station, it costs $20 to "Fill the tank", at home, it's half that. But I guess cheap as hell to run isn't in your metrics.
  - natch 6y ago
    Against other EVs Tesla wins in all of those, although some people are confused by the up front cost and are ignorant about how the car saves you money. Against ICE, some ICE cars have longer range but it’s not any kind of issue as long as you are in the developed world since the charging networks are so great and only getting better.
tzs 6y ago
The article says at 11 kW it charges in 7.5 hours. That's $7.75 worth of electricity for me. Gasoline over the last year has averaged $2.56/gallon for me. The article says it gets 250 miles on a charge. To get 250 miles from an ICE car on $7.75 worth of gasoline, that ICE car would need to get 82.6 miles/gallon. The EV should also require much less routine maintenance than an ICE car. For a heck of a lot of people, fuel cost per mile and the amount and cost of routine maintenance are among the most important metrics.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  depends on how you use your car. Lots of the cost benefits will be swallowed up by the higher price tag. Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE. I think its an objective fact that electric cars still have a very long way to catch up.
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    > Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE Why? There are many CCS DC chargers in the world and the number is growing month-by-month. It's true that some areas aren't built out yet, but many areas already are and new chargers are going in all the time. Try out some road trips with a VW ID.4 on A Better Routeplanner. See how you go: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
    - pkolaczk 6y ago
      If you assume using public chargers, then the cost-per-mile calculation needs to be updated, because electricity prices at the charging stations are much higher than the cost of electricity at home. Here where I live, in Poland, the difference can be up to 3 times. In this case HEV is actually much cheaper to run than an EV.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    It's objective fact that it will take a lot of improvement before an electric car is equivalent or better in every way. But that's not a very fair standard for "catching up".
com2kid 6y ago
Number of times I've taken my car over 200 miles in a single day in the last decade: 3. What range problems?
- Zhenya 6y ago
  You honestly haven't done a 2 hour drive to a hiking/biking/winery destination more than 3 times in 10(!!) years?
  - com2kid 6y ago
    I live in the pacific northwest. 30 minutes to all those places. :) Heck a good electric bike can get me to half of them. I go camping yearly but normally with my friend who takes his minivan. Even then only 1 of the trips has been over 200 miles away. Seattle is awesome for a number of reasons, half of those reasons involve how close Seattle is to outdoor activities. When on vacation using a rental I've driven way over 250 miles at a time, but I'm not counting that against use cases for my primary vehicle.
- bigwheeler 6y ago
  I’ve driven 10,000 miles since Christmas, just for fun/recreation.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    So 155 per day on average? Fair that you wouldn't want a 200 mile range, but either 250 or 300 miles of range could serve you pretty well!
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I think you are an outlier.
- natch 6y ago
  But that’s the wrong argument when electric cars are perfectly capable of taking long road trips, if you choose one with a good fast charging network.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. ??? Maybe you've missed the memo? Acceleration? EVs win. Cabin Noise? EVs win. Maintenance? EVs win. Cost of driving? EVs win. ICE vehicles win in exactly 1 scenario: Being able to fuel up quickly on road trips greater than 300 miles.
- hetspookjee 6y ago
  Driving characteristics are an argument for the sporty drivers as well.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - grecy 6y ago
    Elon said the Model 3 would be quicker than a BMW M3 and have better handling. He said it would "beat anything in it's class on the track" Not content to believe him, Top Gear put it to the test. See for yourself: https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-m3-c63-and-giulia-top-gear-series-27 https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-... (Also, the Performance Model 3 had an over the air update to make it faster since this was filmed, and added track mode)
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      That's a fun video. Notably, I think every one of the cars it's pitted against cost much more than the Tesla. So this idea that Teslas are expensive compared to their peers doesn't hold water. The Mercedes that beat it in the 1/2 mile cost a whopping $160k and none of the other cars were even close in the quarter mile.
      - laut 6y ago
        The Mercedes AMG C 63 S costs USD $76,200 (MSRP) in the US according to https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws

ericd 6y ago

What are those metrics they’re inferior on? Model Y seems like an amazing car, period.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
um... Range? Charging time, power to weight, range, cost, also range. Those are the most important things i look for in a car.
- sjwright 6y ago
  If you need a cheap economy car OR travel extreme distances every day OR if you routinely drive at speeds in excess of 150km/h (90mph) OR if you are unable to charge at home, then electric is probably not going to be for you any time soon. But for everyone else, electric wins your categories. Charging time: ICE cars take about 5 to 10 minutes to detour to a fuelling station. Electric cars take about 5 to 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive at home. Power-to-weight: Due to instant torque, most modern electric cars feel a lot faster than their numbers suggest. But sure, if you're in the market for an MX-5, pure electric isn't for you. Cost: You care about power-to-weight so you're clearly not interested in economy cars. If you want high performance and good range, Tesla models tend to be excellent value relative to their 0–100 times. For most people, cost is still quite high, but this is a relatively short-term problem which will solve itself as manufacturing capacity scales up. Range: Unlike ICE cars, you wake up every morning with a 'full' electric car. The latest models from VW, Tesla etc have ample range for most people. Unless you spend more than half your day on the road, this isn't a concern.
- ericd 6y ago
  Power to weight ratio is pretty great, no? The acceleration times in the usable speed ranges seems to imply that, at least. I agree that the cost is on the high side, but in terms of utility, it seems pretty great - excellent cargo space, optional 7 seats in a small car for when you really need to carry a couple more, panoramic glass roof. And in terms of charging time, for anyone with the ability to charge at hom, I expect that the lifetime sum of total time spent waiting for a charge will be a good bit lower than time spent navigating to and sitting at gas stations, since you’re not waiting for it while it’s charging overnight.
- mc32 6y ago
  Added weight is an underappreciated problem. Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants --going back to natural rubber isn't an option either...
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants As if the tiny amount of additional tire wear is going to create as much pollution as burning petrol and keeping the engine lubricated with oil.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    EVs tend to use the brakes less and of course there are no pollutants from combustion. I'd really like to see an indepth comparison of how much pollutants EVs produce locally vs. ICEs.
- Zanni 6y ago
  I traded in an Audi TTS for my Tesla Model 3 Performance. The Model 3 has better range (300 miles vs. 200), faster charge time for my use case (I plug it in overnight and never have to visit a gas station), better performance, more storage capacity and a vastly superior media/navigation system. The Audi had a nicer steering wheel and slightly nicer seats. I loved my Audi but the Model 3 is better in almost every way. No contest.
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    An ice car with only 200 mile range? I don't think I have ever had a car with so little range in 45 years of driving. And that includes a petrol 5 litre V8 Chevy van. My 2015 Tesla S 70D does about that.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  When you are bitching about EVs and start talking power to weight ratios... it's clear you haven't done your homework. My Model Y is easily the best car I've ever driven in terms of performance, and I didn't even pony up for the fast one. It takes me 10 seconds to charge on my way into the house so no stop at the gas station. Range is better than the VW I used to drive, not as good as my Subaru so I'd call it a push. I haven't done any long trips where I really try to nurse the gas so it's hard to say exactly where it lands though. At a supercharger station, it costs $20 to "Fill the tank", at home, it's half that. But I guess cheap as hell to run isn't in your metrics.
- natch 6y ago
  Against other EVs Tesla wins in all of those, although some people are confused by the up front cost and are ignorant about how the car saves you money. Against ICE, some ICE cars have longer range but it’s not any kind of issue as long as you are in the developed world since the charging networks are so great and only getting better.

tzs 6y ago

The article says at 11 kW it charges in 7.5 hours. That's $7.75 worth of electricity for me. Gasoline over the last year has averaged $2.56/gallon for me. The article says it gets 250 miles on a charge. To get 250 miles from an ICE car on $7.75 worth of gasoline, that ICE car would need to get 82.6 miles/gallon. The EV should also require much less routine maintenance than an ICE car. For a heck of a lot of people, fuel cost per mile and the amount and cost of routine maintenance are among the most important metrics.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
depends on how you use your car. Lots of the cost benefits will be swallowed up by the higher price tag. Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE. I think its an objective fact that electric cars still have a very long way to catch up.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE Why? There are many CCS DC chargers in the world and the number is growing month-by-month. It's true that some areas aren't built out yet, but many areas already are and new chargers are going in all the time. Try out some road trips with a VW ID.4 on A Better Routeplanner. See how you go: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
  - pkolaczk 6y ago
    If you assume using public chargers, then the cost-per-mile calculation needs to be updated, because electricity prices at the charging stations are much higher than the cost of electricity at home. Here where I live, in Poland, the difference can be up to 3 times. In this case HEV is actually much cheaper to run than an EV.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  It's objective fact that it will take a lot of improvement before an electric car is equivalent or better in every way. But that's not a very fair standard for "catching up".

com2kid 6y ago

Number of times I've taken my car over 200 miles in a single day in the last decade: 3. What range problems?

Zhenya 6y ago
You honestly haven't done a 2 hour drive to a hiking/biking/winery destination more than 3 times in 10(!!) years?
- com2kid 6y ago
  I live in the pacific northwest. 30 minutes to all those places. :) Heck a good electric bike can get me to half of them. I go camping yearly but normally with my friend who takes his minivan. Even then only 1 of the trips has been over 200 miles away. Seattle is awesome for a number of reasons, half of those reasons involve how close Seattle is to outdoor activities. When on vacation using a rental I've driven way over 250 miles at a time, but I'm not counting that against use cases for my primary vehicle.
bigwheeler 6y ago
I’ve driven 10,000 miles since Christmas, just for fun/recreation.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  So 155 per day on average? Fair that you wouldn't want a 200 mile range, but either 250 or 300 miles of range could serve you pretty well!
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I think you are an outlier.
natch 6y ago
But that’s the wrong argument when electric cars are perfectly capable of taking long road trips, if you choose one with a good fast charging network.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. ??? Maybe you've missed the memo? Acceleration? EVs win. Cabin Noise? EVs win. Maintenance? EVs win. Cost of driving? EVs win. ICE vehicles win in exactly 1 scenario: Being able to fuel up quickly on road trips greater than 300 miles.

hetspookjee 6y ago
Driving characteristics are an argument for the sporty drivers as well.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- grecy 6y ago
  Elon said the Model 3 would be quicker than a BMW M3 and have better handling. He said it would "beat anything in it's class on the track" Not content to believe him, Top Gear put it to the test. See for yourself: https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-m3-c63-and-giulia-top-gear-series-27 https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-... (Also, the Performance Model 3 had an over the air update to make it faster since this was filmed, and added track mode)
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    That's a fun video. Notably, I think every one of the cars it's pitted against cost much more than the Tesla. So this idea that Teslas are expensive compared to their peers doesn't hold water. The Mercedes that beat it in the 1/2 mile cost a whopping $160k and none of the other cars were even close in the quarter mile.
    - laut 6y ago
      The Mercedes AMG C 63 S costs USD $76,200 (MSRP) in the US according to https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws