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Love VW, smog scandals aside, but is silly to mention the ID.4 and the Beetle together. The latter is arguably the most important car ever made and had a multi-

Love VW, smog scandals aside, but is silly to mention the ID.4 and the Beetle together. The latter is arguably the most important car ever made and had a multi-decade run as such. The other may be a decent selling electric, and is certainly important to VW, but it is a tax break away from being the same price as the Model Y.

ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
The real "Beetle of EVs" will be something that is priced down around the Honda Civic, Mazda 3, etc. AUD$30k (~USD$20k) or so. The first major brand to come out with an EV comparable to that class of car, with local warranty/servicing/etc, just like the Beetle was then or the Civic/3/Golf are now, will be the one that gets true adoption. Until then it's just a "rich person's toy".
- bubblesorting 6y ago
  I am _really_ hoping the ID 3 will be roughly the cost of a GTI, but it's looking more like the cost of a Golf R. Oh well, maybe in a few more years.
- hshshs2 6y ago
  with federal/state incentives you can already get an EV for around $20k in some places (just barely sub 20k sometimes), though IIRC the Chevy Bolt is the only one with 250 mile range at that price
- ghaff 6y ago
  For all the counter-culture nostalgia, the Beetle was mostly about being cheap. And, of yeah, somewhat by being fairly unsafe even relative to the fairly lax standards of the time.Furthermore, depending on one's situation an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Yep. My Mom, like many others of her era, bought one as a first car because it was cheap enough. Given some stories, it's build quality was not the greatest but it kept going.
  - johannes1234321 6y ago
    > an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do. That seems to be a cultural point. For many people I see an EV is actually beneficial over a fossil fuel car: They don't have to go to the gas station ever. Saving that detour every now and then, but simply commute and do the groceries. Longer trips aren't done by car anyways. But that of course requires a garage with power, which many in the cities don't have ...
    - brewdad 6y ago
      The sticking point for me is the in-between trips of 200-300 miles. We live ~80 miles from the coast and ~100 miles from the mountains. Depending on the specifics of the trip, add another 20 miles each way for local roads to a specific trailhead or beach. If there were charge points at my destination, I wouldn't think twice. Since there aren't and really aren't any along the way (maybe one or two chargers for either trip) range anxiety is real. For us, a gas car is a must but an electric will probably be our next "second" car. Of course, we may just forego the second car altogether and stick to one vehicle instead.
      - pkolaczk 6y ago
        Here in Poland, if you charged at a charging station, it would cost you twice MORE than refueling a classic HEV, and it would also take longer - so overall less convenient. If you don't plan to charge it mostly at home, it will never pay off.
  - skolos 6y ago
    We sold both of our gas cars and got Tesla (don’t need two cars right now). We are doing more road trips (1k miles or more) right now than ever. Teslas are awesome on long drives (mainly due to autopilot).
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  In a perfect world the 2nd generation Volt would have been the Beetle of EVs People who don't understand ICEs go "Worst of both worlds!!!! EV and ICE reliability problems!!!" ICEs can be insanely efficient when operating at peak efficiency and incredibly reliable with low power demands Volt maintenance was actually less involved than Tesla's with their required yearly service.
marshmallow_12 6y ago
exactly, cars as far i can see are going downhill (perhaps not literally). I fail to understand how anyone can genuinely see EV as a viable alternative to ICE when they cost so much and are inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. (i think tesla model y is an amazing car, just severely hamstrung)
- ericd 6y ago
  What are those metrics they’re inferior on? Model Y seems like an amazing car, period.
  - marshmallow_12 6y ago
    um... Range? Charging time, power to weight, range, cost, also range. Those are the most important things i look for in a car.
    - sjwright 6y ago
      If you need a cheap economy car OR travel extreme distances every day OR if you routinely drive at speeds in excess of 150km/h (90mph) OR if you are unable to charge at home, then electric is probably not going to be for you any time soon. But for everyone else, electric wins your categories. Charging time: ICE cars take about 5 to 10 minutes to detour to a fuelling station. Electric cars take about 5 to 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive at home. Power-to-weight: Due to instant torque, most modern electric cars feel a lot faster than their numbers suggest. But sure, if you're in the market for an MX-5, pure electric isn't for you. Cost: You care about power-to-weight so you're clearly not interested in economy cars. If you want high performance and good range, Tesla models tend to be excellent value relative to their 0–100 times. For most people, cost is still quite high, but this is a relatively short-term problem which will solve itself as manufacturing capacity scales up. Range: Unlike ICE cars, you wake up every morning with a 'full' electric car. The latest models from VW, Tesla etc have ample range for most people. Unless you spend more than half your day on the road, this isn't a concern.
    - ericd 6y ago
jasonv 6y ago
It’s VWs own argument. The Beetle was “1”. The Golf was “2”. The ID.3 is their third generation people car.
twobitshifter 6y ago
The model Y is 49k, this is 40k before the 7500 tax credit. So the model Y is 20% more expensive before the credit. The credit makes the Y 16,500 more. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/id4/2022/2021-volkswagen-id4-first-look-specs-range-price/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/id4/2022/2021-vol... > As mentioned earlier, the rear-drive ID4 Pro model starts at $39,995, with the ID4 AWD Pro model checking in at $43,695 to start when it launches later next year. Both of those prices are before a potential federal tax credit of $7,500 is applied, however. There are just two options for the ID4 Pro at launch—a Statement Package and a Gradient Package.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  You can get the Model Y for $40k for the moment anyhow, just not from their web order form. Both the base Model Y and the ID.4 have about 80 miles less range than the Long Range Model Y which is the $50k one.
- colordrops 6y ago
  How is the ID.4 software and charging network?
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    You can use A Better Routeplanner to plan out some road trips in the ID.4 (and other EVs). It's a good way to see if a particular EV will be practical for you: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

ObsoleteNerd 6y ago

The real "Beetle of EVs" will be something that is priced down around the Honda Civic, Mazda 3, etc. AUD$30k (~USD$20k) or so. The first major brand to come out with an EV comparable to that class of car, with local warranty/servicing/etc, just like the Beetle was then or the Civic/3/Golf are now, will be the one that gets true adoption. Until then it's just a "rich person's toy".

bubblesorting 6y ago
I am _really_ hoping the ID 3 will be roughly the cost of a GTI, but it's looking more like the cost of a Golf R. Oh well, maybe in a few more years.
hshshs2 6y ago
with federal/state incentives you can already get an EV for around $20k in some places (just barely sub 20k sometimes), though IIRC the Chevy Bolt is the only one with 250 mile range at that price
ghaff 6y ago
For all the counter-culture nostalgia, the Beetle was mostly about being cheap. And, of yeah, somewhat by being fairly unsafe even relative to the fairly lax standards of the time.Furthermore, depending on one's situation an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Yep. My Mom, like many others of her era, bought one as a first car because it was cheap enough. Given some stories, it's build quality was not the greatest but it kept going.
- johannes1234321 6y ago
  > an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do. That seems to be a cultural point. For many people I see an EV is actually beneficial over a fossil fuel car: They don't have to go to the gas station ever. Saving that detour every now and then, but simply commute and do the groceries. Longer trips aren't done by car anyways. But that of course requires a garage with power, which many in the cities don't have ...
  - brewdad 6y ago
    The sticking point for me is the in-between trips of 200-300 miles. We live ~80 miles from the coast and ~100 miles from the mountains. Depending on the specifics of the trip, add another 20 miles each way for local roads to a specific trailhead or beach. If there were charge points at my destination, I wouldn't think twice. Since there aren't and really aren't any along the way (maybe one or two chargers for either trip) range anxiety is real. For us, a gas car is a must but an electric will probably be our next "second" car. Of course, we may just forego the second car altogether and stick to one vehicle instead.
    - pkolaczk 6y ago
      Here in Poland, if you charged at a charging station, it would cost you twice MORE than refueling a classic HEV, and it would also take longer - so overall less convenient. If you don't plan to charge it mostly at home, it will never pay off.
- skolos 6y ago
  We sold both of our gas cars and got Tesla (don’t need two cars right now). We are doing more road trips (1k miles or more) right now than ever. Teslas are awesome on long drives (mainly due to autopilot).
BoorishBears 6y ago
In a perfect world the 2nd generation Volt would have been the Beetle of EVs People who don't understand ICEs go "Worst of both worlds!!!! EV and ICE reliability problems!!!" ICEs can be insanely efficient when operating at peak efficiency and incredibly reliable with low power demands Volt maintenance was actually less involved than Tesla's with their required yearly service.

marshmallow_12 6y ago

exactly, cars as far i can see are going downhill (perhaps not literally). I fail to understand how anyone can genuinely see EV as a viable alternative to ICE when they cost so much and are inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. (i think tesla model y is an amazing car, just severely hamstrung)

ericd 6y ago
What are those metrics they’re inferior on? Model Y seems like an amazing car, period.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  um... Range? Charging time, power to weight, range, cost, also range. Those are the most important things i look for in a car.
  - sjwright 6y ago
    If you need a cheap economy car OR travel extreme distances every day OR if you routinely drive at speeds in excess of 150km/h (90mph) OR if you are unable to charge at home, then electric is probably not going to be for you any time soon. But for everyone else, electric wins your categories. Charging time: ICE cars take about 5 to 10 minutes to detour to a fuelling station. Electric cars take about 5 to 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive at home. Power-to-weight: Due to instant torque, most modern electric cars feel a lot faster than their numbers suggest. But sure, if you're in the market for an MX-5, pure electric isn't for you. Cost: You care about power-to-weight so you're clearly not interested in economy cars. If you want high performance and good range, Tesla models tend to be excellent value relative to their 0–100 times. For most people, cost is still quite high, but this is a relatively short-term problem which will solve itself as manufacturing capacity scales up. Range: Unlike ICE cars, you wake up every morning with a 'full' electric car. The latest models from VW, Tesla etc have ample range for most people. Unless you spend more than half your day on the road, this isn't a concern.
  - ericd 6y ago

jasonv 6y ago

It’s VWs own argument. The Beetle was “1”. The Golf was “2”. The ID.3 is their third generation people car.

twobitshifter 6y ago

The model Y is 49k, this is 40k before the 7500 tax credit. So the model Y is 20% more expensive before the credit. The credit makes the Y 16,500 more. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/id4/2022/2021-volkswagen-id4-first-look-specs-range-price/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/id4/2022/2021-vol... > As mentioned earlier, the rear-drive ID4 Pro model starts at $39,995, with the ID4 AWD Pro model checking in at $43,695 to start when it launches later next year. Both of those prices are before a potential federal tax credit of $7,500 is applied, however. There are just two options for the ID4 Pro at launch—a Statement Package and a Gradient Package.

ogre_codes 6y ago
You can get the Model Y for $40k for the moment anyhow, just not from their web order form. Both the base Model Y and the ID.4 have about 80 miles less range than the Long Range Model Y which is the $50k one.
colordrops 6y ago
How is the ID.4 software and charging network?
- clouddrover 6y ago
  You can use A Better Routeplanner to plan out some road trips in the ID.4 (and other EVs). It's a good way to see if a particular EV will be practical for you: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/