7 ms·

Trump was pursuing a real-politik strategy - US energy / oil independence. Without it, US just can’t afford to put SA in the corner. Biden instead is pursuing n

by tomp 6y ago

Trump was pursuing a real-politik strategy - US energy / oil independence. Without it, US just can’t afford to put SA in the corner. Biden instead is pursuing nice PR, cancelling pipelines and alienating SA (as it seems so far... we’ll see if there’s a grand strategy behind it).

csomar 6y ago
I'm not sure why you are being down-voted. Without oil independence, the US probably wouldn't be enthusiastic to point SA by the finger.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  b/c it's a positive spin on the Trump administration; That there may be truth to a dependence on Saudi oil and/or political influence in the greater scope isn't accounted for.
  - objektif 6y ago
    What type of greater scope is that? How much oil you think is enough for you to witness chainsaw dismantling of your family?
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      Talking about international relations as if they were people isn't a valid model. Imagine a wild-west world without a common justice system, where the justice you receive is based on the justice you can afford to obtain; that is the resources you have. That is the international world. So, what do we do about SA? refuse to buy oil from them, weakening the US global position and hope that causes less harm than the actions of SA itself? Go to war with SA, payed for in dead American soldiers, and hope that the reputation of the US doesn't suffer as a result, esp as Americas enemies spin the even as another example of American Imperialism / justify their own invasions?
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  Perhaps some of us feel that the new government is happy to do the right thing even when it isn't economically advantageous
- mustacheemperor 6y ago
  In addition to the other commenter's suggestion, some people may simply find it reprehensible to defend the sweeping under the rug of a state-sponsored violent chainsaw murder of a WaPo journalist for the sake of realpolitik. Lots of grey comments all over in this thread. Not a very balanced discussion...Or maybe balanced in how much everyone is downvoting one another?
  - dmix 6y ago
    I mean they still aren’t really doing anything about it other than US intelligence formally acknowledging it happened. Nothing will fundamentally be different from before today without actual consequences, it was already globally known and well established. The Turks had a wiretap in the murder room! Not much to get upset about. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-khashoggi.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-kha...
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Unfortunately, I don't think we're quite past the point where any comment related to US politics is presumed to be partisan activism for or against the previous administration. Hopefully in a few months it'll have simmered down.
- 8note 6y ago
  The big thing is that that was Obama/Biden's policy with all the fracking
- jandrese 6y ago
  It doesn't seem to be relevant. The US may have been trying to go energy independent, but their actions towards SA were not indicating that in the least. If anything the administration seemed to be trying to improve relations with oil dictators like MBS and Putin.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    MbS shares interests with his friends in Israel, but those interests are opposed to those of Putin. That's the main reason we fought (and got our asses kicked) in Syria. Fortunately we're fracking now so as soon as we wrest control of the reins of power over our government from Middle Eastern lobbyists we can forget about all those stupid wars we're fighting. So, probably in about a century...
    - jandrese 6y ago
      If we don't want to bake the planet to death we need to transition away from burning oil as an energy source well before the next century. There will still be uses in making plastics and lubricants, but cars and to a lesser extent ships and airplanes need to be getting off of the stuff. Short haul trips can go pure electric, long haul stuff probably needs to switch to biofuels.
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        It seems that pacifists like me and climate people like yourself should be natural allies. Can we agree that USA should not fight wars in the Middle East, since that seems to increase the burning of fossil fuels?
mindslight 6y ago
Appeasing Saudi Arabia is the opposite of energy independence.
- tomp 6y ago
  You need to appease SA until you get energy independence. You also need to work towards energy independence in the meantime.
  - toiletfuneral 6y ago
    Are you saying we need to have a certain level of tolerance for dismemberment of journalists? You must really love trump to die on this hill lol
  - madhadron 6y ago
    Or we just take over Saudi Arabia and eliminate the House of Saud. Probably cheaper in the long run and eliminates the morons who funded Wahabism into a major threat.
    - tomp 6y ago
      Because that has worked out so well with Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan.
  - cirgue 6y ago
    You really don’t. What are they going to do? Raise prices? The only reason we’re not swimming in US oil right now is that a huge chunk of the permian basin is profitable at 80 but not at 65.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    It seems you're trying to imply some causality whereby Trump can take credit for Biden's current policy, even though it's only been a few years. If you want to make that argument, do so explicitly. In the short term, obtaining energy independence is helped by no longer appeasing SA. When oil prices are higher, domestic production becomes profitable. That's if the current prices aren't just a result of the SA strategy of periodically flooding the market to bankrupt high-overhead producers. As for your "we’ll see if there’s a grand strategy behind it", that strategy is obviously domestic production and renewables. Looking forwards instead of looking backwards.
HelloMcFly 6y ago
Can it be that Biden and his administration are doing this not just for the PR, but because they may yet have principles they live by? I can't say, I don't know their heart. Nevertheless, I want our country to alienate other countries whose heads of state order journalists strangled or murdered by any other means. I want to live in a society like that. I want that even if I know my American government is hardly free from guilt.
- tomp 6y ago
  Yeah, I also want Biden to throw Johnson, Trump and Biden in jail because they’re keeping Assange imprisoned & tortured... but that’s just never gonna happen, he’s a small fish in the grand scheme of things.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pueblito 6y ago
With all due respect I do not believe that is real-politik. “In 2019, the United States produced2 about 19.25 million barrels per day (MMb/d) of petroleum, and it consumed3 about 20.46 MMb/d.” (1) We have energy independence, and cutting off the pipeline and going green improves that. You know who isn’t energy independent? China. Why is China staking out the area around the Spratleys? Oil is a huge part of that. I think real politik entails telling the Saudis no más and becoming pals with the Iranians instead. The Persians aren’t our enemies and they aren’t selling peoples organs out of death camps. If they become our homies we have a line from Iraq to India of people who will work with us and force the Chinese to secure a very long and mountainous border. Then if the Saudis don’t like it? Let them sell their oil to China and be on their squad - now China secures their own Oil source and that takes a shit ton of pressure off the Vietnamese and everyone else in the area, with the Iranians still having the Strait of Hormuz as insurance. Peace can be had. Our biggest rival has triple our population and is rapidly catching up in capability - and any armchair historian knows that the Soviets overwhelmed the Nazis despite their sophistication. (1) https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc...
- vinger 6y ago
  Cutting off the pipeline goes against the green strategy. Putting thousands of trucks on the road adds many jobs and raises the demand (those trucks run in gas). Saying that you have enough production (with a negative million plus barrels a day) and then saying that peace needs to be made with Iran to protect supply from going to China seems like an extremely risky strategy with very little potential of cutting off China. The Germans made a series of unsophisticated decisions in the east that cost them when Hilter started to assert direct control over the army. Not really comparible. The number of tanks do.
overlordalex 6y ago
Saudi Arabia only consists of about 6% of the USA's petroleum imports [2019]: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php "Nice PR" is always going to be a side effect of any policy, depending on your viewpoint of course. It seems Biden has a number of pages about his strategy, which seems heavily focused on renewables: https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/ https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/ This is an alternative path to energy independence which also helps with other goals such as reducing climate change impacts

by tomp 6y ago

csomar 6y ago

I'm not sure why you are being down-voted. Without oil independence, the US probably wouldn't be enthusiastic to point SA by the finger.

Chris2048 6y ago
b/c it's a positive spin on the Trump administration; That there may be truth to a dependence on Saudi oil and/or political influence in the greater scope isn't accounted for.
- objektif 6y ago
  What type of greater scope is that? How much oil you think is enough for you to witness chainsaw dismantling of your family?
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    Talking about international relations as if they were people isn't a valid model. Imagine a wild-west world without a common justice system, where the justice you receive is based on the justice you can afford to obtain; that is the resources you have. That is the international world. So, what do we do about SA? refuse to buy oil from them, weakening the US global position and hope that causes less harm than the actions of SA itself? Go to war with SA, payed for in dead American soldiers, and hope that the reputation of the US doesn't suffer as a result, esp as Americas enemies spin the even as another example of American Imperialism / justify their own invasions?
gameswithgo 6y ago
Perhaps some of us feel that the new government is happy to do the right thing even when it isn't economically advantageous
mustacheemperor 6y ago
In addition to the other commenter's suggestion, some people may simply find it reprehensible to defend the sweeping under the rug of a state-sponsored violent chainsaw murder of a WaPo journalist for the sake of realpolitik. Lots of grey comments all over in this thread. Not a very balanced discussion...Or maybe balanced in how much everyone is downvoting one another?
- dmix 6y ago
  I mean they still aren’t really doing anything about it other than US intelligence formally acknowledging it happened. Nothing will fundamentally be different from before today without actual consequences, it was already globally known and well established. The Turks had a wiretap in the murder room! Not much to get upset about. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-khashoggi.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-kha...
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Unfortunately, I don't think we're quite past the point where any comment related to US politics is presumed to be partisan activism for or against the previous administration. Hopefully in a few months it'll have simmered down.
8note 6y ago
The big thing is that that was Obama/Biden's policy with all the fracking
jandrese 6y ago
It doesn't seem to be relevant. The US may have been trying to go energy independent, but their actions towards SA were not indicating that in the least. If anything the administration seemed to be trying to improve relations with oil dictators like MBS and Putin.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  MbS shares interests with his friends in Israel, but those interests are opposed to those of Putin. That's the main reason we fought (and got our asses kicked) in Syria. Fortunately we're fracking now so as soon as we wrest control of the reins of power over our government from Middle Eastern lobbyists we can forget about all those stupid wars we're fighting. So, probably in about a century...
  - jandrese 6y ago
    If we don't want to bake the planet to death we need to transition away from burning oil as an energy source well before the next century. There will still be uses in making plastics and lubricants, but cars and to a lesser extent ships and airplanes need to be getting off of the stuff. Short haul trips can go pure electric, long haul stuff probably needs to switch to biofuels.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      It seems that pacifists like me and climate people like yourself should be natural allies. Can we agree that USA should not fight wars in the Middle East, since that seems to increase the burning of fossil fuels?

mindslight 6y ago

Appeasing Saudi Arabia is the opposite of energy independence.

tomp 6y ago
You need to appease SA until you get energy independence. You also need to work towards energy independence in the meantime.
- toiletfuneral 6y ago
  Are you saying we need to have a certain level of tolerance for dismemberment of journalists? You must really love trump to die on this hill lol
- madhadron 6y ago
  Or we just take over Saudi Arabia and eliminate the House of Saud. Probably cheaper in the long run and eliminates the morons who funded Wahabism into a major threat.
  - tomp 6y ago
    Because that has worked out so well with Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan.
- cirgue 6y ago
  You really don’t. What are they going to do? Raise prices? The only reason we’re not swimming in US oil right now is that a huge chunk of the permian basin is profitable at 80 but not at 65.
- mindslight 6y ago
  It seems you're trying to imply some causality whereby Trump can take credit for Biden's current policy, even though it's only been a few years. If you want to make that argument, do so explicitly. In the short term, obtaining energy independence is helped by no longer appeasing SA. When oil prices are higher, domestic production becomes profitable. That's if the current prices aren't just a result of the SA strategy of periodically flooding the market to bankrupt high-overhead producers. As for your "we’ll see if there’s a grand strategy behind it", that strategy is obviously domestic production and renewables. Looking forwards instead of looking backwards.

HelloMcFly 6y ago

Can it be that Biden and his administration are doing this not just for the PR, but because they may yet have principles they live by? I can't say, I don't know their heart. Nevertheless, I want our country to alienate other countries whose heads of state order journalists strangled or murdered by any other means. I want to live in a society like that. I want that even if I know my American government is hardly free from guilt.

tomp 6y ago
Yeah, I also want Biden to throw Johnson, Trump and Biden in jail because they’re keeping Assange imprisoned & tortured... but that’s just never gonna happen, he’s a small fish in the grand scheme of things.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pueblito 6y ago

With all due respect I do not believe that is real-politik. “In 2019, the United States produced2 about 19.25 million barrels per day (MMb/d) of petroleum, and it consumed3 about 20.46 MMb/d.” (1) We have energy independence, and cutting off the pipeline and going green improves that. You know who isn’t energy independent? China. Why is China staking out the area around the Spratleys? Oil is a huge part of that. I think real politik entails telling the Saudis no más and becoming pals with the Iranians instead. The Persians aren’t our enemies and they aren’t selling peoples organs out of death camps. If they become our homies we have a line from Iraq to India of people who will work with us and force the Chinese to secure a very long and mountainous border. Then if the Saudis don’t like it? Let them sell their oil to China and be on their squad - now China secures their own Oil source and that takes a shit ton of pressure off the Vietnamese and everyone else in the area, with the Iranians still having the Strait of Hormuz as insurance. Peace can be had. Our biggest rival has triple our population and is rapidly catching up in capability - and any armchair historian knows that the Soviets overwhelmed the Nazis despite their sophistication. (1) https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc...

vinger 6y ago
Cutting off the pipeline goes against the green strategy. Putting thousands of trucks on the road adds many jobs and raises the demand (those trucks run in gas). Saying that you have enough production (with a negative million plus barrels a day) and then saying that peace needs to be made with Iran to protect supply from going to China seems like an extremely risky strategy with very little potential of cutting off China. The Germans made a series of unsophisticated decisions in the east that cost them when Hilter started to assert direct control over the army. Not really comparible. The number of tanks do.

overlordalex 6y ago

Saudi Arabia only consists of about 6% of the USA's petroleum imports [2019]: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php "Nice PR" is always going to be a side effect of any policy, depending on your viewpoint of course. It seems Biden has a number of pages about his strategy, which seems heavily focused on renewables: https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/ https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/ This is an alternative path to energy independence which also helps with other goals such as reducing climate change impacts