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US says Saudi prince approved Khashoggi killing
- m_a_g 6y agoThe saddest part is that SV runs on Saudi cash. https://vicki.substack.com/p/silicon-valley-runs-on-saudi https://vicki.substack.com/p/silicon-valley-runs-on-saudi
- roflchoppa3 6y agoAny companies that are known to not take "dirty" cash when trying to fund money?
- zapdrive 6y agoNo.
- duxup 6y agoProbably not but when you have some who travel to Saudi Arabia to fund raise and schmooze, it's a bit more direct.
- andrewacove 6y agoThis can be difficult because the money is often funneled through other entities (as LPs to VC and growth funds, etc.) I've had more than one VC tell me they couldn't guarantee that there was no Saudi money in their fund, even though they didn't have any direct KSA LPs.
- __sy__ 6y agoI would hope we (Seam) are one of them. K, granted it's extremely hard to trace all the LPs of a fund; but at the very least we don't take calls with questionable funds/individuals. Once we've shipped our first product, I'll try to write down why, and propose a framework by which founders can better assess the money they're taking. NOT all money is green.
- sschueller 6y agoWhen you run companies like Uber that violate laws left and right I don't think the founders or boards have any issue where the money comes from.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- juskrey 6y agoThe funniest part is that most of that cash just gets burned
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- odiroot 6y agoIt's like some kind of karmic justice.
- tshaddox 6y agoNot burned, but transferred to Silicon Valley landlords!
- jandrese 6y agoMany of those landlords happen to be offshore billionaires, in some cases organizations like the Saudi sovereign wealth fund.
- hef19898 6y agoSo basically zero risk for these guys?
- foolmeonce 6y agoIf you are SA, the risk that softbank will need to issue you a middleman with no ethics to manage your real estate is 100%.
- hahahahe 6y agoI remember when SA and UAE wanted to build fabs in the middle east in their never ending effort to diversify away from oil. They soon realized they don’t have the workforce without importing skilled labor. SA has one of the [hardest-to-motivate workforces] in the world.
- ampdepolymerase 6y agoThey are basically the counterexample for universal basic income.
- hahahahe 6y agoExactly. Contrast that with another oil rich country that did something: Norway.
- ampdepolymerase 6y agoNorway's scale of UBI is a lot less than the oil rich Arabic states' though. Those states may not have much civil liberties but material quality of life is undeniably not bad for most locals.
- Grustaf 6y agoNorway doesn't have UBI.
- jandrese 6y agoI don't think most proponents of UBI are suggesting we give people enough money to push them into the "rich asshole" level of wealth. But I do agree that UBI proponents have to come up with an argument against the "pay people just enough to do drugs and play videogames all day" example. Most of the population is not made of highly motivated self-starters, despite what every job posting looks for.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
- mrighele 6y agoEven worse, SV is located in a country that is not better than Saudi Arabia when we talk about extra-judicial killings (just think about Obama-era drone killings)
- sofixa 6y agoAnd still has a military-run black site for illegal detainment and torture. And not only that, they refuse international law and to subject their war criminals to prosecution. Strike that, they have a law allowing themselves to invade anyone investigating their war criminals, have sanctioned such investigators, and actively pardon war criminals.
- Chris2048 6y agoThe US has some history of politically-motivated suppression of journalists (Assange), but has yet to advance to murdering them.
- boc 6y agoTrump continued (and even increased) the drone killings, but removed the reporting requirements. Calling it the "Obama-era drone killings" ignores the unprecedented amount of killings under the previous administration. Source: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-kill...
- corpMaverick 6y agoFurthermore. The Obama admin added transparency and accountability measures while the Trump admin ditched them.
- 8note 6y agoI'm sure it will be great solace to the families of those murdered by America that the Americans are proud to talk about it again
- 6y ago
- xiphias2 6y agoIsn't that a good sign? I prefer people investing in new tech than killing people just to stay in the old tech. The more they are able to diversify their profits away from oil towards renewables (or other assets), the faster we all can transition to cleaner tech.
- wombat-man 6y agooh, I think it just creates a morally hazardous situation where it's harder to push back on stuff like the Khashoggi killing because we like their money.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoThe alternative is their money goes somewhere else, possibly to those more politically aligned.
- xiphias2 6y agoI see, it's true. But the consequences of not accepting outside investment for US for moral reasons would be a disaster, as the money would just go to more corrupt countries. As Jordan Peterson expressed it quite well, the problem with United Nations is that they have too many issues to solve instead of figuring out what action has the highest ROI and focusing efforts there. Another issue is that already people in less corrupt countries prefer not to have babies, which means that the workforce in corrupt countries is growing much faster. US has to be very smart if it wants to stay relevant.
- joshjhargreaves 6y agoHow is this possibly the 'saddest' part? A man was brutally murdered. Get some perspective, jeez.
- DSingularity 6y agoI think he means what is also sad is that the powerful in SV dont care. Words matter but I doubt he meant that is sadder then the tragedy that happened in the embassy.
- sschueller 6y ago"US President Joe Biden is expected to take a firmer line than his predecessor Donald Trump on human rights and the rule of law in Saudi Arabia, a key American ally in the Middle East." What does this even mean? I highly doubt the arms deal will get canceled. That was arranged under Obama and Biden.
- joshstrange 6y agoWell it means actually acknowledging what happened vs the Trump admin staying quiet on it. As for the arms deal, the most recent arms deal was brokered by the Trump admin [0]. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-administration-saudi-weapons-deal/2020/12/23/657cdc72-4565-11eb-8deb-b948d0931c16_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-admin...
- leesalminen 6y ago> Well it means actually acknowledging what happened If nothing material happens after acknowledging something bad happened, does it matter in any way? The net result is the same.
- joshstrange 6y agoFor me? Yes it absolutely matters. While I would prefer action being taken, saying the truth out loud is important and something sorely missing in politics in general.
- jessaustin 6y agoWake us up when Biden admin cancels that deal...
- mc32 6y agoPosturing. Tsk, tsk. Regimes do bad things. They just don’t usually do it in the open like this case or North Korea (foreign airport). Unless it’s a small banana republic that bends at the will of international pressure, not much will happen. Right after they do something material about this I’m certain they will do something about the things China does. Maybe they’ll do something about Venezuela too, right?
- munk-a 6y agoI guess it's nice that easily observable things are now actually being confirmed by the government again. This was strongly suspected at the time but never by any official sources, and it's nice to actually have it come out. This is probably generally a result of a shift in policy against viewing Saudi Arabia as a stabilizing government in the region which seems like a correct evaluation.
- zapdrive 6y agoThis is a mere eyewash to keep your votes in your pocket. If you really think Biden admin is going to have a concrete change in the middle East policy (regarding arms sale, etc.) I have a bridge to sell to you.
- duxup 6y agoMiddle East nations have at least since the Obama era largely been left to their own devices (more than in the past), and operate happily that way. They're not looking to the US or anyone for approval.
- hourislate 6y agohttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/peace-president-how-obama-came-bomb-seven-countries-six-years-9753131.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/peace-p... Almost six years later, Mr Obama has approved military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and now Syria. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (BIJ) estimates the Obama administration has launched more than 390 drone strikes in five years across Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia – eight times as many approved during the entire Bush Presidency.
- duxup 6y agoThat doesn't seem to relate to what I said. Obama making decisions on his own doesn't have anything to do with middle east nation's interest in US approval for their own actions.
- Qw3r7 6y agoSo, where do we go from here ?
- droopyEyelids 6y agoThe saudis will help some influential people till it becomes politically an financially impractical to embarrass the house of saud again. https://twitter.com/ZcohenCNN/status/1364626495315062788 https://twitter.com/ZcohenCNN/status/1364626495315062788
- Qw3r7 6y agoIts just such an odd place to be in at the moment from an international point of view. It just feels as if something is missing from the discussion.
- schwinn140 6y agoI find it deeply disturbing that this was known by the US intelligence community the entire time yet they were suppressed from sharing publicly because of certain people being compromised. Ugh.
- hddu 6y agoJust wait until you go down the blackmail inflation epstein rabbithole.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoI don't know. It's not like the US government kept this as a closely-held secret or tried to convince anyone it wasn't true; they just didn't want to officially acknowledge it for diplomatic reasons. International politics works that way sometimes, and I'm not sure it's fair to characterize that as being "compromised".
- kolbe 6y agoWhy is this in particular deeply disturbing? Your tax dollars are responsible for thousands of murders and hundreds of thousands of negligent homicides every year. Why is it that one guy getting killed for doing something that was illegal for him to do in his country is the thing that is getting to you?
- TwoBit 6y agoWhat murders and homicides are you referring to?
- 99_00 6y agoAll the leverage US had over SA was just thrown out the window.
- war1025 6y agoMy opinion of the whole ordeal changed quite a lot once I realized that only reason this became a "big deal" is that Khashoggi was well connected. It was portrayed as "this is bad because they killed a journalist." In reality it was "this is bad because this guy had lots of connections" Journalists are killed by bad people every year, usually to very little fanfare.
- corpMaverick 6y agoHe was a Washington Post journalist. It is a big deal because if you cannot protect this journalist then every journalist is a target.
- throwawaybchr 6y agoIs it uncommon for countries to leave their traitors alive? Saudi Arabia has had public beheadings, it's not unusual for a place like that to murder a guy who was sitting in the USA and publishing the talking points he was getting from Qatar. The idea that he was 100% a noble crusading journalist is pure propaganda. This whole story is artificially amplified. Has everyone woken up and suddenly learned what punishments in Saudi Arabia are like? Take for instance Chelsea Manning - someone who made the US government look bad by leaking diplomatic cables. Torture, solitary confinement, all sorts of inhumane conditions. Is it that much of a stretch to see a monarchy like Saudi Arabia chopping up their guy for making them look bad? Not really. It's what you would expect in a place like that. It's always been that way, and everyone has known about it. To pretend as if it's unexpected is quite insincere and reeks of some alternative agenda. The way Khashoggi is presented to the public as some kind of hero is really telling.
- Darmody 6y agoHe's seen like a "hero" not because what he did but because what they did to him. He could've been the worst journalist in the world. That's no excuse to butcher him.
- throwawaybchr 6y agoWhat is the reason given for treating Chelsea Manning the way she was treated by the Obama administration?
- Darmody 6y agoAs far as I know, Chelsea wasn't cut to pieces alive. And even if they did, that's not an excuse to what SA did.
- throwawaybchr 6y agoIs this the only instance in recent history where a traitor has been tortured and/or killed? It's the only one everyone is talking about. The reason for that is for the common folk to develop a bias. A well deserved bias, but a manufactured one nonetheless.
- Bud 6y agoPlease note that it was not merely "suspected"; according to the report, this was the rock-solid assessment of US intelligence in 2018. It's just that it was kept covered up by Trump.
- tomp 6y agoTrump was pursuing a real-politik strategy - US energy / oil independence. Without it, US just can’t afford to put SA in the corner. Biden instead is pursuing nice PR, cancelling pipelines and alienating SA (as it seems so far... we’ll see if there’s a grand strategy behind it).
- csomar 6y agoI'm not sure why you are being down-voted. Without oil independence, the US probably wouldn't be enthusiastic to point SA by the finger.
- Chris2048 6y agob/c it's a positive spin on the Trump administration; That there may be truth to a dependence on Saudi oil and/or political influence in the greater scope isn't accounted for.
- objektif 6y agoWhat type of greater scope is that? How much oil you think is enough for you to witness chainsaw dismantling of your family?
- Chris2048 6y agoTalking about international relations as if they were people isn't a valid model. Imagine a wild-west world without a common justice system, where the justice you receive is based on the justice you can afford to obtain; that is the resources you have. That is the international world. So, what do we do about SA? refuse to buy oil from them, weakening the US global position and hope that causes less harm than the actions of SA itself? Go to war with SA, payed for in dead American soldiers, and hope that the reputation of the US doesn't suffer as a result, esp as Americas enemies spin the even as another example of American Imperialism / justify their own invasions?
- liquidify 6y agoWhat exactly is going to come of this? Forcing the Saudi's to buy more weapons from us in order to keep us from 'doing' something to them?
- doggodaddo78 6y agoI have a friend who relocated from Saudi Arabia to America. He said MbS most likely watched the dismemberment via video link as entertainment. Nothing in the Kingdom like that happens without MbS' approval. It's unlikely that anyone went rogue because it's a very hierarchal society with strict rules.
- stiltzkin 6y agoThat's really disturbing, and more disturbing first world nations were aware of this.
- mrtksn 6y agoWere there any revelations on how the Turkish intelligence managed to uncover the murder? There were claims that they listened through his Apple Watch but this claim lacks any substance, they must have bugged the Saudi Embassy in Istanbul where the murder took place.
- temp8964 6y agoMay I ask an honest question? I cannot understand why Jamal Khashoggi is mainly referred as a "journalist". Reading his Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi), apparently he is a Saudi dissident, a critic of the Saudi government. Yes he did write lots articles for newspaper, mostly criticize the Saudi government. But does this make him a journalist? According to the Wikipedia page, I don't think he was an independent journalist. He had connections with the Saudi government and other organizations. Quote: "After his second resignation, Khashoggi maintained ties with Saudi Arabian elites, including those in its intelligence apparatus. In 2015, he launched the satellite news channel Al-Arab, based in Bahrain outside Saudi Arabia, which does not allow independent news channels to operate within its borders. The news channel was backed by Saudi Arabian billionaire Prince Alwaleed bin Talal and partnered with U.S. financial news channel Bloomberg Television, it was also rumored to have received financial support from the King of Bahrain, Hamad Bin Isa Al-Khalifa.[69] " Quote: "In December 2018, The Washington Post revealed that Khashoggi's columns "at times" were "shaped" by an organization funded by Saudi Arabia's regional nemesis, Qatar, including by proposing his topics, giving him drafts, goading him, and giving him research." I am not saying it is wrong to be a political dissident, but those should disqualifying you from being called as a "journalist", right?
- duxup 6y ago>He had connections with the Saudi government and other organizations. I'd be surprised if a journalist DID'T have connections to government officials. For many (depending on what you cover) that's a big part of the job.
- prtkgpt 6y agoSURPRISE!!
- r721 6y ago>Treasury will unveil sanctions today on General Ahmed al-Asiri, former deputy head of the Saudi intelligence services, and the Saudi Rapid Intervention Force for their involvement in the Khashoggi assassination. Crown Prince MBS will NOT be sanctioned, per officials. >A new State Department policy named the Khashoggi Ban will also be unveiled today, which will allow State to restrict and revoke visas to any individual believed to be involved in targeting/harassing/surveilling dissidents and journalists extraterritorially. >Then White House chose not to penalize the crown prince directly despite intel report concluding he approved the operation that led to Khashoggi's murder. One senior administration official said that to do so would put the U.S. in an extremely “hostile” position wrt KSA. >"The aim is recalibration, not a rupture, because of the important interests that we do share" with Saudi Arabia, the senior admin official said. U.S. officials and departments will continue to deal with MBS at the appropriate levels. >More from SAO on why MBS was not sanctioned: "The United States as a matter of practice has not generally applied sanctions on the highest leadership of countries with whom the US has diplomatic relations. Nor even generally speaking on the leaders of countries with which 1/ >the US has no relations. And having looked at this extremely closely over the last 5 weeks, there was unanimous conclusion that there were other more effective means to dealing with these issues going forward." https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1365370766204747779 https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/13653707662047477... UPD https://www.state.gov/accountability-for-the-murder-of-jamal-khashoggi/ https://www.state.gov/accountability-for-the-murder-of-jamal...
- aqme28 6y agoNot even a slap on the wrist.
- gremlinsinc 6y agoThey should add SA to the banned countries list for ISP's, banks, hosting, etc seize all known funds in USA banks, end all sales, all business, etc... Saudia Arabia will be begging for water in ten years, with climate change impacts. Make them the "new" Iran in terms of business dealings with America. All shares that Saudi Prince owns in America companies becomes owned by the Government and is auctioned off.
- Debug_Overload 6y agoThe linked DNI report [PDF]: https://www.odni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Assessment-Saudi-Gov-Role-in-JK-Death-20210226.pdf https://www.odni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Assess...
- EdSharkey 6y agoOligarchs revving the war machine back up to make more blood-soaked sand. Gonna piss off the regional allies and have the CIA re-occupy old stomping grounds like Syria. Regular drone strikes up next! Take your buyer's remorse if you haven't already. P.S. Kids in cages! You'll say nothing.
- will_pseudonym 6y agoAre we ready to talk about 9/11 yet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_role_in_September_11_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_role_in_Septembe...
- aqme28 6y agoMeanwhile, "Biden Won’t Penalize Saudi Crown Prince Over Khashoggi’s Killing, Fearing Relations Breach"[1] This is almost more shameful than when we pretended that MBS wasn't involved. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-khashoggi.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-kha...
- miles 6y agoBiden Won’t Penalize Saudi Crown Prince Over Khashoggi’s Killing https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-khashoggi.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/us/politics/biden-mbs-kha...
- ulisesrmzroche 6y agoThe least covered up cover-up ever.
- dbg31415 6y agoReport actually says Intelligence told Trump this too... and instead of trusting that, Trump went out and said this: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/411502-trump-has-emboldened-mbs-to-act-with-impunity https://thehill.com/opinion/international/411502-trump-has-e... Video about half-way down... Trump said, paraphrased, "I talked with MBS and he told me very strongly that he didn't do it, so he's good. Move along, nothing to see here people." I don't agree with Biden on everything, but sure is nice to have a POTUS who isn't trying to sweep the killing of journalists under the rug. Like... I sleep a bit better at night now.
- happyconcepts 6y agoThis creates an opening for Israel-Saudi relations. It is like the US is being robbed.
- technol0gic 6y agoto quote Master Shake’s sarcasm, “Spoiler. Alert.”