4 ms·

It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data,"

It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/1223263/p155407privacyconmislove_1.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...

zepto 6y ago
They really don’t sell it. You certainly say they exploit it on behalf of their customers, but we need to maintain the distinction between this, and the companies that actually do sell the data they collect, because once sold, you can never trace who is using the data, whereas with Facebook and Google’s model, you can. It’s also worth pointing out that it’s not in Facebook’s interest to sell the data. If they did, they would lose their advantage quite quickly.
- afiori 6y ago
  i agree that there is a difference but the Cambridge Analytica scandal told a different story regarding how much your data is safe within Facebook
  - zepto 6y ago
    Very true. Facebook has definitely undermined trust on what data it shares. However that is not it’s normal model.
    - afiori 6y ago
      This makes it worse in my opinion. For example Telegram has a very specific approach to security based on "you can trust us", by default chats are not end-to-end encrypted, they use non-standard encryption and the app is free, but they are upfront on why such tradeoffs are made and their point of view in making them. Facebook could have a position of "personalized advertising is the future" and allow ipertargeted marketing by means of gathering every scrap of data they could find. But they could draw the line to keeping it within their own databases and never distributing any of it. Apparently their main line of bussiness is exactly like that, but they do not do only that, they also partake in sharing that data.
ChrisKnott 6y ago
Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.
- tmccrary55 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana...
  - tmccrary55 6y ago
    It's funny how a link to Facebook's recent data selling scandal, in a discussion about whether Facebook sells data, gets voted down.
    - goatsi 6y ago
      Because that wasn't a data selling scandal? Cambridge Analytica didn't buy data on millions of people from Facebook, they harvested it for free due to lax permissions.
      - firephreek 6y ago
        "I didn't pay for sex your honor, I simply left money on the nightstand."
      - afiori 6y ago
        I guess they paid for that service and the reason they paid why they paid was the possibility to gather data. they had to gather the data themselves, but that is the difference between robbing an house and opening someone else door to robbers
    - cm2012 6y ago
      "Recent" "2013"
- atonse 6y ago
fallingknife 6y ago
It isn't the same. At least only FB has my data instead of thousands of advertisers who paid for a copy. Leaks may be an issue, but it still isn't the same as selling the data to anyone who will pay.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
madeofpalk 6y ago
Well I guess there's a distinction required between what Facebook does and actual adtech/data broker companies that do outright sell .csvs of user data.
easytiger 6y ago
The thing is, localised advertising is the sweet spot that i've identified in advertising value. If you forget all other data, this is one piece of information that can provide value to both consumer and small businesses. Facebook, if you know any small business that have a specific region of operation (e.g. one city) derive significant benefit and growth from Facebook's targeted advertising that they just were not seeing before. Of course, if anyone logs in and fetches their data from facebook as a download and go through it, it is really rather unbelievable how much data there is beyond geographical data. Some of it pretty scary. What intrigues me further, after i tried to do the same with google, i don't believe google are nearly as open to how much data they hold on a person. There doesn't seem to be any takeaway service that indicates the same depth of information. But of course we know for a fact they do hold some of it. Anyway, the long and short of it is advertising is all we have to support enormous social networks and I feel some level of personalised data provides mutual benefit. It should of course all be opt in with no exceptions. I'm actually conceptualising a service/product around this concept right now.
mewpmewp2 6y ago
Selling data implies to me that in exchange for money they give actual data row by row to third parties.
lazzlazzlazz 6y ago
Huge mental gymnastics to pretend "sell the data" and "use the data to sell something else" are the same. Baffling.
summerlight 6y ago
There's no incentives for Facebook to "sell" their user data as long as this is the primary advantage over their competitors including Google, Amazon, MS, etc. Big techs naturally tend to monopolize connections to its users and FB is no exception. In fact, if they "sell" their user data, anti-trust regulators will be very happy; they want big techs to share user data to its competitors but the big techs are using user privacy and security as their excuses to rule out new competitions in the industry. Apple took the lead and other big techs are now following.

zepto 6y ago

They really don’t sell it. You certainly say they exploit it on behalf of their customers, but we need to maintain the distinction between this, and the companies that actually do sell the data they collect, because once sold, you can never trace who is using the data, whereas with Facebook and Google’s model, you can. It’s also worth pointing out that it’s not in Facebook’s interest to sell the data. If they did, they would lose their advantage quite quickly.

afiori 6y ago
i agree that there is a difference but the Cambridge Analytica scandal told a different story regarding how much your data is safe within Facebook
- zepto 6y ago
  Very true. Facebook has definitely undermined trust on what data it shares. However that is not it’s normal model.
  - afiori 6y ago
    This makes it worse in my opinion. For example Telegram has a very specific approach to security based on "you can trust us", by default chats are not end-to-end encrypted, they use non-standard encryption and the app is free, but they are upfront on why such tradeoffs are made and their point of view in making them. Facebook could have a position of "personalized advertising is the future" and allow ipertargeted marketing by means of gathering every scrap of data they could find. But they could draw the line to keeping it within their own databases and never distributing any of it. Apparently their main line of bussiness is exactly like that, but they do not do only that, they also partake in sharing that data.

ChrisKnott 6y ago

Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.

tmccrary55 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana...
- tmccrary55 6y ago
  It's funny how a link to Facebook's recent data selling scandal, in a discussion about whether Facebook sells data, gets voted down.
  - goatsi 6y ago
    Because that wasn't a data selling scandal? Cambridge Analytica didn't buy data on millions of people from Facebook, they harvested it for free due to lax permissions.
    - firephreek 6y ago
      "I didn't pay for sex your honor, I simply left money on the nightstand."
    - afiori 6y ago
      I guess they paid for that service and the reason they paid why they paid was the possibility to gather data. they had to gather the data themselves, but that is the difference between robbing an house and opening someone else door to robbers
  - cm2012 6y ago
    "Recent" "2013"
atonse 6y ago

fallingknife 6y ago

It isn't the same. At least only FB has my data instead of thousands of advertisers who paid for a copy. Leaks may be an issue, but it still isn't the same as selling the data to anyone who will pay.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

madeofpalk 6y ago

Well I guess there's a distinction required between what Facebook does and actual adtech/data broker companies that do outright sell .csvs of user data.

easytiger 6y ago

The thing is, localised advertising is the sweet spot that i've identified in advertising value. If you forget all other data, this is one piece of information that can provide value to both consumer and small businesses. Facebook, if you know any small business that have a specific region of operation (e.g. one city) derive significant benefit and growth from Facebook's targeted advertising that they just were not seeing before. Of course, if anyone logs in and fetches their data from facebook as a download and go through it, it is really rather unbelievable how much data there is beyond geographical data. Some of it pretty scary. What intrigues me further, after i tried to do the same with google, i don't believe google are nearly as open to how much data they hold on a person. There doesn't seem to be any takeaway service that indicates the same depth of information. But of course we know for a fact they do hold some of it. Anyway, the long and short of it is advertising is all we have to support enormous social networks and I feel some level of personalised data provides mutual benefit. It should of course all be opt in with no exceptions. I'm actually conceptualising a service/product around this concept right now.

mewpmewp2 6y ago

Selling data implies to me that in exchange for money they give actual data row by row to third parties.

lazzlazzlazz 6y ago

Huge mental gymnastics to pretend "sell the data" and "use the data to sell something else" are the same. Baffling.

summerlight 6y ago

There's no incentives for Facebook to "sell" their user data as long as this is the primary advantage over their competitors including Google, Amazon, MS, etc. Big techs naturally tend to monopolize connections to its users and FB is no exception. In fact, if they "sell" their user data, anti-trust regulators will be very happy; they want big techs to share user data to its competitors but the big techs are using user privacy and security as their excuses to rule out new competitions in the industry. Apple took the lead and other big techs are now following.